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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
 Posted - May 18 2004 : 3:04:04 PM
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Dark Cloud: I couldn't agree with you more and I really appreciate you encouraging others to visit the LBH for the first time. I have mentioned this on other posts here and a long time ago, so I feel it's ok to say it again -- I'd read about this battle for 10 years before I finally visited it. After seeing the land and the battlefield I had to go back and reread everything again.
Now, if you can add streaming video of the battlefield that would be outstanding. I haven’t taken the time to figure out how to do it for the Friends’ website – not even sure if I have the proper equipment to do it once I figure it out.
Like you, I think the best time to visit the battlefield if off-season – fall or spring. I just returned from a trip to the Black Hills and the battlefield last week. I gave a couple from Great Britain a tour of the battlefield. It was a quick one – we only had seven hours. But, I was able to take them over Custer and Reno’s battle sites.
The day couldn’t have been better, except it was cloudy, cold and windy. There were only 10 cars in the visitor center's parking lot and we were the only folks at Reno-Benteen, Last Stand Hill and the Indian Memorial.
I told them this was rattlesnake country but it was probably too early in the season to see any. We pulled over on the opposite side of the battle road right across from the Keogh sector. I stepped out of my car and there before me on the grass beside the curb sliding along was a snake. I said, “Hey, cool, here’s a snake” thinking it was a bull snake. I couldn’t see any rattles. Just then, it curled up, looked right at me, opened its mouth, stuck his tongue out, and made the terrible noise.
This was not my first encounter with a rattler – I’ve seen them on the Rosebud Battlefield and Custer Battlefield before but I was confused because I couldn’t see any rattles. My brain suddenly went into confused mode thinking, “What kind of snake on the plains hisses at me in such a loud, threatening manner?” I couldn’t think of any so I backed off.
His gaze followed me as I backed to the rear of my car with me never taking my eyes off of him. Then, I moved in for a second look. He didn’t like that and rattled even more. All his markings were of a rattler and I then assumed, and rightly so, that it was a baby rattler. He stayed there, next to my front door as I took my Birt friends to the Cheyenne wayside exhibit and told them about the fight in the Keogh Sector.
A truck of Montanans’ stopped by and looked at the snake and they confirmed it was a baby rattler. So, when I returned to my car I climbed in from the passenger side to the driver’s seat. Once we were in the car I could look directly at him from my car window. Since their eyesight is bad he felt the threat was gone and slid off toward Lame White Man’s marker.
I then took my friends over to meet the Park Historian, John Doerner and had lunch with him. When Brian and Chris told John about the day they were having (we hadn’t even gotten to Last Stand Hill or Deep Ravine yet because I was giving them a tour in the order that the battle had progressed) John looked at me, smiled and put his hand under his desk and said, “Guess I can turn this button off now, Bob?” A great laugh for everyone.
So, I sure hope that everyone that visits the battlefield has a great experience – minus the snakes.
Photos attached.
For a high-level view of the battle along with photos please visit -- http://www.friendslittlebighorn.com/Custer%27s%20Last%20Stand.htm --
I just added two new photos of the Indian Memorial taken on May 10, 2004 from its northface.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
Edited by - bhist on May 18 2004 3:25:24 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 20 2004 : 11:54:54 PM
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You know, I thought the Indian memorial was going to be hideous, but your photograph of it backlit by the clouds totally refutes me. It looks lovely and moving, actually. Rather impressed.
Still working on the video. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - May 27 2004 : 02:14:04 AM
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Thanks Dark Cloud. The Indian Memorial is a moving place especially if you can stand inside it and be the only person around.
It grabs you; doesn’t want to let go. It dares you to embrace the spirits there. But, the spirits seem content; they really do. Like the Indians that visit it daily and feeling pride in the memorial, I think the warrior spirits do, too.
The Indian Memorial will give you an excuse to get back up there soon to check it out.
Bob
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 05 2004 : 8:44:45 PM
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| To blame any one man for the fatal outcome of this battle is to give that man to much credit. No single human possessed the authority or power to initiate this battle. It was a conglomeration of many factors and people who decided that Custer would attack. To gloss over this critical factor results in the unfair allegation of fault of a man who did not live to defend his decisions. Every historian is aware that history is written by the winners. |
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benteens brother
Corporal
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - June 05 2004 : 9:56:46 PM
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| It was Custer who decided when and how he was going to attack. It was Custer who decided on the disposition of his forces. He was the man in control. With all due respect, I really don't know how you can absolve Custer of any blame. If the warriors had thrown down their weapons and surrendered do you think Custer would've taken credit for a great victory? I believe he would have. So I certainly believe he has to take the blame for maneuvering his forces into a dead end with annihilation the result in the end. |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - June 06 2004 : 08:08:16 AM
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You made things too simple. It's not always true that who make decisions is guilty of the final results, unless when searching for a scapegoat. Can blame Circumstances. With your point of view, America is guilty of 11 september cause have let the airplane broken through Twin Towers. Or, guilty is the man at the check point in the airport, that did'nt recognize terrorists. This of course is not true.
Custer was there following orders. Where he don't wait, now we know he had instructions to attack indians when he find them, wherever he find them as well. With this fact, with the fact that he did'nt knew about Rosebud defeat - and that was not his fault -; with the fact that always indians have acted different in battle that in the 25 june 1876; all this facts are to "blame": blame, if not elsewhere, is on unlucky circumstances. That's my point of view. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 06 2004 : 11:17:34 AM
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He had no such order to attack when he found them. He was ordered to do what he thought was best to achieve the best results: whether to wait or attack right off was his command decision.
Further, what do we know now about his orders that haven't been known for one hundred years at least? What you mean 'now we know?'
We keep repeating that Indians always ran and so the Army expected it to run, yet at Kildeer in 1864 they did not(until they very last minute when they concluded they couldn't win and the women got busy under the army advance). This was the incident with a comparably sized village of the same tribes. So which cliche is wrong: that the Indians 'always ran' or that the Army always thought they would run?
Either way.....Custer attempted to do with far less men what could barely be done in 1864. From that point of view: pretty damned dumb. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 06 2004 : 6:58:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lorenzo G.
You made things too simple. It's not always true that who make decisions is guilty of the final results, unless when searching for a scapegoat. Can blame Circumstances. With your point of view, America is guilty of 11 september cause have let the airplane broken through Twin Towers. Or, guilty is the man at the check point in the airport, that did'nt recognize terrorists. This of course is not true.
Custer was there following orders. Where he don't wait, now we know he had instructions to attack indians when he find them, wherever he find them as well. With this fact, with the fact that he did'nt knew about Rosebud defeat - and that was not his fault -; with the fact that always indians have acted different in battle that in the 25 june 1876; all this facts are to "blame": blame, if not elsewhere, is on unlucky circumstances. That's my point of view.
Planes crashing into the WTC and Custer attacking at the Little Big Horn cannot be compared. A commander is in charge and on the hook for the win or loss in a battle. A bunch of cowards taking over a plane and crashing it into a building does not mean the blame goes to those who didn't stop them. That's silly.
You're blending the failure of the campaign with the failure at LBH. People above Custer in the campaign can be blamed for intelligence failures, but Custer initiated the battle, was the commanding officer, and he lost the fight. Therefore, he was to blame for the loss. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 06 2004 : 8:45:35 PM
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"He had no such order to attack when he found them."
This statement makes one wonder why Custer, or anyone
else for that matter, was sent to the Little Big Horn if not to kill and attack Indians? The following sounds like an order to me.
'The Brigadier-General Commanding directs that, as soon as your regiment can be made ready for the march, you will proceed up the Rosebud in PURSUIT of the Indians. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GIVE YOU ANY DEFINITE INSTRUCTIONS IN REGARD TO THIS MOVEMENT, and were it not impossible to do so the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to empose upon you PRECISE orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the ENEMY.
What does a military unit normally do when in contact with the enemy? There has never been a dispute as to Custer's goal when he confronted the Indians; attack! The question has been whether he attacked to soon or not.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - June 07 2004 : 09:07:26 AM
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You said there was an order to attack. That isn't an order to attack. Custer is clearly given discretion to use his head.
Well, it was an indian Campaign. He (Custer) had to pursuit the indians and was there because that indians was hostiles. It was a war plan, made pursuit the hostiles. The orders must be looked in that viewpoint. And must place them in the right circumstances.
Sheridan to Sherman: "As hostile Indians, in any great numbers, cannot keep the field as a body for a week or at most ten days, I therefore consider - and so do Terry and Crook - that each column will be able to take care of itself, and of chastising the indians should it have the opportunity."
Terry:"I hope that one of the two columns will find the indians, I go personally with Gibbon."
Hutton: "Terry's earlier dispatch portrayed Gibbon and Custer as marching independently in search of the indians. The strategy Terry had worked out with Gibbon, Custer, and Major brisbin in a june 21 council of war had been one to find the Indians, not entrap them."
These, with other facts, as prejudices and misapprehension onto the enemy, that was not faults of Custer, are circumstances. And is why I said he was compelled to attack. All what came out with the council of war, had that goal.
That's silly.
You're blending the failure of the campaign with the failure at LBH. People above Custer in the campaign can be blamed for intelligence failures, but Custer initiated the battle, was the commanding officer,and he lost the fight. Therefore, he was to blame for the loss.
Silly for me is to insist in talking about blames. I am blending not the two happenings (TT LBH), but the way to look at them. With the circumstances I showed right up here, there is no blame on Custer. If you charge blame on him because he was the commander, well then I charge other officers that did'nt obey his order with enough zeal. But that's not the right key for it, at my opinion, as it is not the right key to approaching this battle.
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If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 07 2004 : 10:41:13 AM
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You said he was "ordered" to attack. Now you say he was 'compelled'; an order compels, but so do other things, like circumstance, assumptions, personal failings, incompetence. There was no tight time element inflicted on Custer to which he had to adhere. He had no order to attack. Had he thought it best, he could have waited for Terry under the orders or 'instructions' he was given.
It may be silly for you, but by attacking when and how he did, Custer lost his men. His decision, his fault.
I'm still waiting for those who insist Custer should have/could have been rescued to inform us and history exactly how, upon Benteen's arrival, the elements should have proceded. How many with the unmoveable wounded, how many with the train (now less than a mile from a huge village), how many without horses, how many to tend the wounded, and at what point of loss should the rescuing element give up and, leaving its own and Custer's wounded, return to Reno's. Tell us. Otherwise, stop the 'lack of zeal' garbage, which could arguably and better be applied to Custer's non-support of Reno. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - June 07 2004 : 1:13:23 PM
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| Showing what his superiors was expecting from him, I gave to you the answer. It looks like if you don't care about things that could be against your point of view. He was ordered and he was compelled.That I said and that I confirm. The orders and what told Terry and Sheridan... It's so clear. But you won't to see it. Or listen or at least, give the benefit of doubt that you give to others. You said in other post that you get angry when someone accuse one of the leaders of trahison, but this is what you do everywhere when you talk about Custer. Well I guess we could go on on this posts and we both stay on our views. Respectable both. I think. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - June 07 2004 : 1:21:19 PM
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| As a PS: Custer did'nt support Reno because he was overwhelmed from indian forces that was joined from the ones let free from Reno retreat, a retreat that arrived in a moment in which was possible to resist a while more, as many officers told later. Please now don't ask: how did you know this? What are your sources? I've answered in another past post. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 07 2004 : 3:10:22 PM
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| At least, Lorenzo, you have provided a fine illustrative example of how Martini probably confused and misled everyone by thinking his English was better than it was, and that he thought he had said things he had not or hadn't said things he had. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 07 2004 : 3:42:12 PM
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| Cooke should have carried the message. |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - June 07 2004 : 4:53:28 PM
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| I understand very well what you write Dark Cloud, I am not a stupid. It is instead not so gentle that you remarking always on my unperfect english. Oh yes poor me the dull italian... |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 07 2004 : 6:09:14 PM
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No, Lorenzo, you don't understand everything I write. I certainly don't understand all of your writing. I never called you stupid.
An 'order' is a very specific thing in the military. Your quotes contain no order at all, much less one to attack. They clearly grant decision making ability to Custer. If you understand that, it is not reflected in your postings, because you continue to say Custer was ordered to attack.
How late could Custer have gone into action and still be 'support' for Reno in a cavalry battle? He descends MTC an hour or more after Reno is in a gunfight after a relaxing, wind swept walk along the bluffs. He waves. He's polite. Can't complain.
That's 'support' for Reno's charge?
If Reno had kept the charge up, and the Indians all developed glaucoma and fondness for interior decorating and allowed Reno to race through tribe after tribe uninterrupted, killing at will, where would he be when Custer timidly sticks his toe in the water at MTC to cross?
Having raced to the north end of the village, Reno would be heading south again (if at 7.5 mph as configured by Burmese manuals on Peruvian llama racing applied under observation to ducks in Holland in winter while chased by anacondas on prehensile feet: see Michno's "Because I Say So! I Have A Master's Degree!", page 45).
That's just an extra point question to those still configuring the winning combination that Benteen failed to make when he took over from Marcus "Frackngzot, fella? Bartender!" Reno just an hour later, and five before Reno and Benteen decided not only to leave the wounded but leave them with a list of the things each guy was most scared of to enhance torture pinned to his forehead after deciding they couldn't sell them. Custerphiles suppose worse, but this is a family forum.
Remember: a list of what Benteen could have done in what order that would have saved Custer. Lorenzo, this quiz has your name all over it. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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benteens brother
Corporal
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - June 07 2004 : 8:05:10 PM
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| The order from General Terry is rather ambiguous and I'm sure when the dust had settled Terry wished he had been more specific and forceful. He is basically letting Custer have his head. Pursue the hostiles and attack if you think the conditions are favourable. The other option was to wait until the rest of Terry's column was in position and proceed from there. Custer took the first option and initiated unilateral action and failed. It was his decision, his responsibility for the final outcome. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 07 2004 : 9:58:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
Cooke should have carried the message.
No, he shouldn't have. Maybe Martin(i) wasn't the best choice, but it, in a way, might prove something. If the message was a matter of life and death, it would not have been sent with a trooper with a limited grasp of English. And it seems the only reason the message was written was for this reason, to make sure Martin(i) got the message to Benteen. Important enough to make sure it was properly received, but not important enough to be entrusted to a man who spoke English well. It almost as if Custer realised after sending his first message to the pack train, that Knipe might not encounter Benteen, so he wanted to make sure Benteen got the same message. Or maybe he saw, from a different vantage point, Benteen returning to the main trail. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 08 2004 : 03:03:08 AM
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I made the point about Cooke carrying the message because generally this was the practice in most armies.Young officers were attached to HQ and were well aquainted with the situation and the wishes of the commanding officer.
Benteen would not as easely have dismissed an officer as he did Martin.
Regards |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 08 2004 : 07:59:55 AM
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| I see your point, and it makes sense. But Cooke was the regimental adjutant. He did go with Reno for a time in the valley, but so did Keogh, and he was a company commander and possibly in charge of a wing of Custer's battalion. Custer sent back a sergeant and the orderly of the day, who was also a trumpeter (seems to be common to send trumpeters as couriers). I just don't see that Cooke should have been sent, given his position. Another lieutenant? Sure, but even then, with the lack of officers in the regiment (several lieutenants leading companies, and officers transferred for a variety of reasons, sending off a non-com and a trumpeter made more sense than sending a commisioned officer, especially regiment's adjutant. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 08 2004 : 08:17:40 AM
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If we're going to continue predicating conversation on the assumption that there was a winning combination available to Reno and Benteen allowing Custer's salvation and possible victory, I remind everyone I've asked to see such. If there isn't any, than en masse a plea for forgiveness is needed from generations of Custerphiles to the principalities of the cosmos. Or at least the need for, if not silence, respectful considerations for the horrors of choice available to those two officers.
Of course, a conclusion suggesting there was jack that could be done renders all the theories mute, and we are once again drawn to the decision to advance north from MTC. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - June 08 2004 : 08:29:14 AM
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Dear Dark, you have not called me stupid, but you have dealt to me like such in your last message, however does'nt matter, cause I am not the kind to carry rancor or to be sulky.
What with my last message I wished to demonstrate is that in order to estimate the 25 of june events and the decisions of Custer, it must hold account of the circumstances that influenced them. Beyond to this I meant to demonstrate which it was the thought of the protagonists while they planned the orders that then would have been given to the three columns. The backstage is important. In fact, must not consider just the order in himself, but also the war council that kept the 21 where the greater protagonists had the occasion to express verbally just their point of view - that Terry resumed in the final written order. And such point of view, mistaken or correct that is, comes clearly expressed in the letter of Sheridan that I have brought back, and in which letter he claim that Terry agreed with him. backstage of this order, is the explosion of one war: the campaign of the 76 was an action of war against the Indians who were themselves refused to enter in reservations and therefore, all what follows must seen in the optical of such war, that had the precise goal to tame the " hostile ones " forcing them to enter in the reservoirs. The phrase of Terry, that it hopes one of the columns will meet the Indians and its affirmation that evry one of the columns in motion could take care of itself confirm too my idea and shows as was considered an option too that one of the columns could engage with indians alone too, following needing circumstances. The orders of Terry, approvals in this optical assume one various and more complete valence. "Pursuit the indians" cannot have but a only meant. That meant it's obvious.
I have brought back the phrase of Sheridan then, in order to make to understand as still fluttered the prejudgment (or the ignorance) about the abilities or the behavior in battle of the Indians. The historian Hutton , with better shape, expresses in this regard my same thoughts and it is not a Custer supporter.
As far as the support of Custer to Reno, it was not timid. The soldiers they testified to hear for a long time an intense shooting. That wants to say that Custer (or its men, if he already were died) were not to collect daisies. I do not have sure answers. Nobody has specially about movements of Custer. But right away I think that if Reno had given the time to Custer to enter in the village, resisting on the positions that, to said of those famous officials already named was still possible to hold, the fates of the battle would perhaps be changed - not in Victory, but at least even in a less bloody end. Who knows?
The delay of Custer probably had had to the fact that was being attempted the ideal point in order to come down in the valley. This to my warning. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Was Custer To Blame?
