| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| frankboddn |
Posted - July 09 2008 : 02:19:27 AM
Joe, I think Custer had a good plan, one that had worked at Wa****a and in general when attacking an Indian village. But I think what he lacked was proper reconnaisance, knowledge of the strength and size of the village, and I do believe he thought he had the troops in the 7th to handle any number of Indians.
I think he blew it when he sent Benteen on his scout to the left, although maybe he had his tactical reasons. And he really blew it when he was more or less forced to allow Reno--in my opinion an ill-equipped officer as an Indian fighter--to lead the charge into the village. Could Benteen have done better there? Probably. But If it had been Benteen with the 140 or so soldiers charging the village, the results probably would have been the same.
I think on that day, at that place and fighting that many Indians with their just being flushed with victory over Crook, the Indians just weren't going to be defeated.
SO, bottom line, yeah, Custer was responsible for his defeat. It would be interesting to know how other officers such as Ranald McKenzie or Wesley Merritt would have handled the whole thing.
In reviewing this post, I see i must have hit "New Topic" instead of replying to a post. My bad.
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| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - October 21 2011 : 8:33:25 PM
It's the Joe and Joe show, the Joe and Wild Bill show, the Benteen and Billy the Kid show, the Benteen and Buffalo Bob show, the Joe and Pop the magic dragon show, the Joe and Mary had a Little lamb show watched by Az and the paranoid five.     |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 26 2009 : 11:24:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
quote:
Neither chooses to respond to intelligent questions with similar kind preferring to splat "stupid" and "Liar" across the forum. My suggestion is this, future posts by them that infer negative personalization be ignored by the forum. Let me know what you think!
Well there are those forums that do have "ignore" buttons, or fields where one can cut and paste user names to "ignore" and never see their post. I don't see why it wouldn't work. I haven't looked at half of what AZ posted this time, so it wouldn't bother me any, if it wouldn't bother you.
Neither of them add anything of substance or value to the conversation, and when they do, it's only to support what Walter Mason Camp knew before he died in 1925; anything after is summarily rejected as fabrication, falshood period according to them. So yeah, I like the idea, as far as i'm concerned its a done deal.
Didn't realize this is Joe and Benteen forum. Or is it the Joe and Joe under another name forum? |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 26 2009 : 11:21:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
quote:
So other than failure to run spell check which I corrected what is your point? Share with us the how you concluded "Our word Nazi wasn't exactly being honest"?
It wasn't me who thew the first "personal insult" stone and derailed the conversations with lies and fabrications about a current member of the forum.
How many times have you personally, when asked if you had any questions involving the job you were supposed to be doing, said nothing or replied “no” when in fact the opposite was true. In other words you didn’t completely understand what you were supposed to be doing, and didn’t clarify it, and when asked, if you had any questions, you either chose not to ask or answered “no”. We all have done this have we not? And then at some point we have had to swallow our pride and ask someone, a colleague or someone in the know to help us to understand. And if you say “no” to this, "that I‘ve never done this", you lie.
How many times have you personally let a work project go, because “life happens” and “time passes too quickly” and all of a sudden the due date for that project is upon you, and you have but a day or two to complete it; and your boss walks by your desk a day before it’s due and you haven’t even started it, and asks you “how’s the project going”? And you say...? "Just fine"? (A lie.) How many times has this occurred in your lifetime? And if you say “never”, you lie.
How many times has your boss asked you to do something that you have personally dreaded to do, and you have answered it by saying something like “sure thing, I’d be happy to.” An outright lie. And don’t say this hasn’t happened to you, because it has, and everyone knows it has.
How many times has your alarm gone off, and you didn’t hear it or, perhaps it didn’t go off because you forgot to set it, or you pushed the reset button to get some extra sleep and when you finally awake, you realize you should have been to work a half an hour ago. And when you finally arrived at work, what did you tell your boss? What lame excuse did you use? What lie to save your butt? Virtually everyone on earth at one time or another has done this, what lame excuse for a lie did you use? Flat tire? Some personal tragedy? Car wouldn’t start? Shoes didn’t fit? Your uniform was soaked in the sweat of your discomfort trying to figure out the right lie and had to be washed?
You chastise others for the same lies you yourself do each and every day, as if you were and are still to this day some kind of saint; which you are not.
You preach “honor” for those who kill in the heat of battle, and know not of the humane consequence of the inhumane healing within, and dare to call that honor. You find honor in horror and expatiate it if it should be extended to all who fight in battles and wars, from Attila the Hun to Stalin’s Purge. Though your view is the only right one, I’m sure would matter, to those, at that time, they also would proclaim then, as you do today that they did what they did in honor also, their views and opinions also being right and yours notwithstanding. We could continue with this “honor” S**t and extend it further to include events of today, if you so wish, for I am quite confident that there are those out there who think as you do, that there is no finer “honor” than to die for their cause, does the initials AQ ring any bells AZ? Just remember what YOU classify as “honor” some do classify as just the opposite. And when put the way I just have, and if you do not understand I will expatiate it further, you should understand, there is no “honor” there, none. For one man’s honor is another’s grief, pain and loss that has everything to do with guilt, blame, shame, and longsuffering.
What are you drinking?
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| joe wiggs |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 10:12:09 PM
I sincerely believe that your evaluation is the precise reason why the two of them detest you and I so much. They have gathered just enough information to give them a sense of superiorly to others. When you post, they see information that they have never contemplated before. Information that contradicts their preconceived notions of what occurred.
As a result, your posts, and mine, must be the work of the "devil" and ultimately must be destroyed. Unable to defeat us with information they resort to "slings and arrows" accusations of being "liars", "stupid", and generally dishonest about our lives.
I'm convinced that others see through them just as you and I. what I am hoping is that others will stand with us and feel free to express themselves without unsubstantiated allegations fired against them. You and I are thick skinned enough to continue our efforts. Surely, there are those out there who possess the same mettle.
|
| Benteen |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 9:44:16 PM
quote:
Neither chooses to respond to intelligent questions with similar kind preferring to splat "stupid" and "Liar" across the forum. My suggestion is this, future posts by them that infer negative personalization be ignored by the forum. Let me know what you think!
Well there are those forums that do have "ignore" buttons, or fields where one can cut and paste user names to "ignore" and never see their post. I don't see why it wouldn't work. I haven't looked at half of what AZ posted this time, so it wouldn't bother me any, if it wouldn't bother you.
Neither of them add anything of substance or value to the conversation, and when they do, it's only to support what Walter Mason Camp knew before he died in 1925; anything after is summarily rejected as fabrication, falshood period according to them. So yeah, I like the idea, as far as i'm concerned its a done deal. |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 2:23:25 PM
I hate to say this Benteen, but the above description fits dc to a "Tee" also. Either these two went to High school or they are the same two individuals. Both would rather assiduously point out the most diminutive errors than harp like a Banshee and screech with wails of accusations that are ridiculous.
Neither chooses to respond to intelligent questions with similar kind preferring to splat "stupid" and "Liar" across the forum. My suggestion is this, future posts by them that infer negative personalization be ignored by the forum. Let me know what you think! |
| Benteen |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 12:40:51 PM
quote:
So other than failure to run spell check which I corrected what is your point? Share with us the how you concluded "Our word Nazi wasn't exactly being honest"?
It wasn't me who thew the first "personal insult" stone and derailed the conversations with lies and fabrications about a current member of the forum.
How many times have you personally, when asked if you had any questions involving the job you were supposed to be doing, said nothing or replied “no” when in fact the opposite was true. In other words you didn’t completely understand what you were supposed to be doing, and didn’t clarify it, and when asked, if you had any questions, you either chose not to ask or answered “no”. We all have done this have we not? And then at some point we have had to swallow our pride and ask someone, a colleague or someone in the know to help us to understand. And if you say “no” to this, "that I‘ve never done this", you lie.
How many times have you personally let a work project go, because “life happens” and “time passes too quickly” and all of a sudden the due date for that project is upon you, and you have but a day or two to complete it; and your boss walks by your desk a day before it’s due and you haven’t even started it, and asks you “how’s the project going”? And you say...? "Just fine"? (A lie.) How many times has this occurred in your lifetime? And if you say “never”, you lie.
How many times has your boss asked you to do something that you have personally dreaded to do, and you have answered it by saying something like “sure thing, I’d be happy to.” An outright lie. And don’t say this hasn’t happened to you, because it has, and everyone knows it has.
How many times has your alarm gone off, and you didn’t hear it or, perhaps it didn’t go off because you forgot to set it, or you pushed the reset button to get some extra sleep and when you finally awake, you realize you should have been to work a half an hour ago. And when you finally arrived at work, what did you tell your boss? What lame excuse did you use? What lie to save your butt? Virtually everyone on earth at one time or another has done this, what lame excuse for a lie did you use? Flat tire? Some personal tragedy? Car wouldn’t start? Shoes didn’t fit? Your uniform was soaked in the sweat of your discomfort trying to figure out the right lie and had to be washed?
You chastise others for the same lies you yourself do each and every day, as if you were and are still to this day some kind of saint; which you are not.
You preach “honor” for those who kill in the heat of battle, and know not of the humane consequence of the inhumane healing within, and dare to call that honor. You find honor in horror and expatiate it if it should be extended to all who fight in battles and wars, from Attila the Hun to Stalin’s Purge. Though your view is the only right one, I’m sure would matter, to those, at that time, they also would proclaim then, as you do today that they did what they did in honor also, their views and opinions also being right and yours notwithstanding. We could continue with this “honor” S**t and extend it further to include events of today, if you so wish, for I am quite confident that there are those out there who think as you do, that there is no finer “honor” than to die for their cause, does the initials AQ ring any bells AZ? Just remember what YOU classify as “honor” some do classify as just the opposite. And when put the way I just have, and if you do not understand I will expatiate it further, you should understand, there is no “honor” there, none. For one man’s honor is another’s grief, pain and loss that has everything to do with guilt, blame, shame, and longsuffering.
|
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 10:36:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
Inserted it to show when it was actually submitted. And no I didn't change a word. The date in the brackets was mine to show the actual date, I added By AZ Ranger for clarity. And to prove that I wasn't actually making it up you will notice that you also mis-spelled and corrected the word "their" also. No, I didn't fail to mention this, I intentionally left it out of the discussion because I thought you would challenge me, and you did.
So other than failure to run spell check which I corrected what is your point? Share with us the how you concluded "Our word Nazi wasn't exactly being honest"?
So if we see "Edited by - Benteen on November 15 2009 01:28:07 AM" is that a sign that Benteen "wasn't exactly being honest"?
AZ Ranger |
| Benteen |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 10:21:25 AM
Inserted it to show when it was actually submitted. And no I didn't change a word. The date in the brackets was mine to show the actual date, I added By AZ Ranger for clarity. And to prove that I wasn't actually making it up you will notice that you also mis-spelled and corrected the word "their" also. No, I didn't fail to mention this, I intentionally left it out of the discussion because I thought you would challenge me, and you did.
|
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 09:31:02 AM
Benteen
Besides correcting the spelling error is there any difference in my posts?
I am curious though you posted
"Posted - Today (ll,22,09) : 8:21:48 PM By AZ Ranger"
I can't get a copy of a post to display the date in the format you displayed. (ll,22,09) Is that an actual copy or did you insert the date in post? I also don't get the By AZ Ranger.
When I copy a date it looks like:
Today
Posted - Today : 08:52:51 AM
The day before
Benteen Posted - Yesterday : 9:57:31 PM
Longer than the day before
Posted - November 20 2009 : 2:16:45 PM
Or in a quote
November 20 2009 : 2:16:45 PM
Originally posted by Benteen
So is this an example of what you did?
Posted - Today (ll,22,09) : 8:21:48 PM By Benteen
AZ Ranger
|
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 09:20:15 AM
an alleged supervisor at a police department
Again Joe I beleive you are posting false information. All peace officers don't work at a police department. You think the Sheriff's Office is called a police department? You think the Highway Patrol is called a police department by the officers?
I have no idea what your state did but in Arizona all officers are AZPOST certified officers are Peace Officers and where the work determines their title.
Cities have policemen
Towns have deputy marshals
Counties have deputy sheriffs
Department of Public Safety- Highway Patrol - patrolmen
Cities in Arizona have police departments and certain entities such as the capital and universities.
Generically peace officers use the word police since most people understand it especially foreigners. If that is what you meant by police department than I stand corrected but my office is not called a police department. We do have AZPOST certified officers at our office.
AZ Ranger
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| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 08:52:51 AM
quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
Do you have any idea what your thread makes you appear like, an insolent, juvenile, sniveling little twerp! "I hope you are not as stupid as your posts make you out to be." is not the response of a grown man yet, an alleged supervisor at a police department. Where you hired as a supervisor or did you move up the ranks like most mortals. Are you suggesting that a police supervisor is incapable if doing interrogations/interviews and making a decision.
You really ought to be ashamed of yourself and answer the question if you are able.
quote:
Since then I have had second thoughts, may I share them with you?
No is my answer.
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| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 08:47:24 AM
Never claimed to be a spelling expert and the spell check is what I use to correct either typo or spelling errors and sometimes I forget to use it. Nothing new but I wasn't the one who said that everyone had a dictionary. That was Joe. So he invited the challenge don't you think?
quote:
Our word Nazi wasn't exactly being honest. He didn't catch his own error until when?
At least when I see an obvious typo I correct it. What's your point. What does honesty have to do with correcting a typo? It fits the pattern of your logic and conclusions.
How does your position on personalization fit with "Our word Nazi"?
Let's be honest you are the disingenuous one.
|
| Benteen |
Posted - November 24 2009 : 9:57:31 PM
Our word Nazi wasn't exactly being honest. He didn't catch his own error until when?
Posted - Today (ll,22,09) : 8:21:48 PM By AZ Ranger
OK Here is the question you asked:
quote:
Since then I have had second thoughts, may I share them with you?
No is my answer.
I hope you are not as stupid as these posts make you out to be. Did you read the only question in your previous post before you asked me to answer it?
Try this one Joe here is your sentence:
As an officer, you must realize that your opinion is not requested in an investigation.
Since I am a superisior, officer's ask me all the time for my opinion in thier investigations. Did you really mean requested as you wrote or was it an error?
AZ Ranger
---------------
Notice the word "superisior" in that last paragraph? Now notice the time it took for him to correct it.
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| joe wiggs |
Posted - November 24 2009 : 9:36:10 PM
Do you have any idea what your thread makes you appear like, an insolent, juvenile, sniveling little twerp! "I hope you are not as stupid as your posts make you out to be." is not the response of a grown man yet, an alleged supervisor at a police department. Where you hired as a supervisor or did you move up the ranks like most mortals. Are you suggesting that a police supervisor is incapable if doing interrogations/interviews and making a decision.
You really ought to be ashamed of yourself and answer the question if you are able. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 23 2009 : 07:42:50 AM
OK Here is the question you asked:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since then I have had second thoughts, may I share them with you?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No is my answer.
I hope you are not as stupid as these posts make you out to be. Did you read the only question in your previous post before you asked me to answer it?
Try this one Joe here is your sentence:
As an officer, you must realize that your opinion is not requested in an investigation.
Since I am a supervisor, officer's ask me all the time for my opinion in their investigations. Did you really mean requested as you wrote or was it an error?
AZ Ranger
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| joe wiggs |
Posted - November 22 2009 : 5:47:43 PM
I get it. Rather than answer the question which you, obviously, cannot you once again bring the same old, tired, dispersions that no one bothers with anymore except you and your daddy.
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| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 22 2009 : 4:46:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
Az, you profess to be police Officer of 61 years of age who single handily capture a "Gang Banger." Hell, I even gave you a round of applause that I, at my age, could never accomplish such a feat. Since then I have had second thoughts, may I share them with you? You don't think like an officer. Particularly one who, allegedly, has over thirty years of service.
During such an extended amount of time you must have experienced a great, many episodes of criminal activity, made arrest, and testified in Court.
As an officer, you must realize that your opinion is not requested in an investigation. The facts, just the facts are required.
For example, you are interviewing a suspect regarding a murder, he has waived Miranda, signed off, and is talking to you. He says, "Detective, I swear when I walked into the parlor, she was laying on the couch alive. It was exactly five O'clock because she asked me what time it was when I asked if she was O.K.!
You finish taping the statement. The next day, however, you send your partner in to initiate further questioning of the suspect because the coroner advises you that the time of death for the victim was actually three o"clock.
Returning to the suspect your partner shoves the new information into his face and, he now states, "Oh yea,it was really actually 2:30 when I saw her. I remember because my watch said five O'clock but, I realize that it was running fast."
In summation, a real cop would say,"were you lying yesterday and telling the truth today, or were you telling the truth yesterday and lying today.
Instead, you interject every theoretical possibility possible to absolve Benteen of his false testimony. Who knows, if you persevere you might really start believing it yourself. However, we don't.
Who is we Joe, morning star, realbird, pohanka and reddirt?
You example has zero to do with reading the questions and answers in RCOI. First this is written sworn testimony not interview and interrogation statements taken by Joe and Morning Star. You don't know the difference do you? Police officers don't ask the questions in Arizona courts or courts of inquiry.
As an officer, you must realize that your opinion is not requested in an investigation. The facts, just the facts are required.
Joe you are your own worst enemy when it comes to your veracity and what a police officer does or not. Part of my job involves stolen watercraft and accident investigations. So are you saying officer's trained in investigative techniques can not testify as an expert witness? Can expert witnesses testify to opinion?
Exactly what do think accident reconstruction testimony in court is if not opinion? So you have never heard an officer testify to opinion? Let's try a simple example can a trained officer testify to his opinion on a rear brake light being on when it was struct in the rear breaking the bulb? Was that opinion formed in the investigation?
When an officer testifies to slurred speach is that opinion? The subject appeared nervous fact or opinion?
You apparently don't recognize the range of testimony allowed at a court of inquiry as being much different than civilian courts.
There is nothing hypothetical about the words believe and believed appearing in print in the RCOI.
You spent a lot of time in court have you? You think that in your courts that when asked a questions such as:
Did you not receive such notification from General Custer at the hands of Trumpeter Martin?
and part of the answer is " I wish to say, that before that order reached me I believe that General Custer and his whole command were dead.
That there would be no objection.
Do know what a nonresponsive objection is?
So Joe ask morning star if that appears to be nonresponsive yet allowed at the RCOI.
I know lets see how morning star, realbird, pohanka and reddirt vote on this issue.
AZ Ranger
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| joe wiggs |
Posted - November 21 2009 : 9:31:08 PM
Az, you profess to be police Officer of 61 years of age who single handily capture a "Gang Banger." Hell, I even gave you a round of applause that I, at my age, could never accomplish such a feat. Since then I have had second thoughts, may I share them with you? You don't think like an officer. Particularly one who, allegedly, has over thirty years of service.
During such an extended amount of time you must have experienced a great, many episodes of criminal activity, made arrest, and testified in Court.
As an officer, you must realize that your opinion is not requested in an investigation. The facts, just the facts are required.
For example, you are interviewing a suspect regarding a murder, he has waived Miranda, signed off, and is talking to you. He says, "Detective, I swear when I walked into the parlor, she was laying on the couch alive. It was exactly five O'clock because she asked me what time it was when I asked if she was O.K.!
You finish taping the statement. The next day, however, you send your partner in to initiate further questioning of the suspect because the coroner advises you that the time of death for the victim was actually three o"clock.
Returning to the suspect your partner shoves the new information into his face and, he now states, "Oh yea,it was really actually 2:30 when I saw her. I remember because my watch said five O'clock but, I realize that it was running fast."
In summation, a real cop would say,"were you lying yesterday and telling the truth today, or were you telling the truth yesterday and lying today.
Instead, you interject every theoretical possibility possible to absolve Benteen of his false testimony. Who knows, if you persevere you might really start believing it yourself. However, we don't. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 20 2009 : 6:53:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
quote:
It may be relevant, I don't know
As with most of your prattle, it is as we all know YOUR opinion, which you have a right to. But that's all it is, an opinion.
When one looks at the testimony and see's what he said one day, and what he stated the next, it is obvious that his testimony was conflicting. That stated is a fact, not an opinion.
Again
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does it say believe or believed? Is Benteen answering the question asked or inserting his current opinion?
If you don't agree it states believe or that he is inserting opinion rather than answering the question than please explain how you derive that?
What's the matter you can't answer the question? Everyone reading the quotes should be able to see believe and believed. One present tense the other past tense. How hard is it?
I see you failed to post from RCOI your rendition. Is that because Benteen stated on the 19th day that "I believe" Custer was dead. The same day and four answers later is the words you used for your opinionated rendition:
Q . From the order sent to you at that time to be quick and bring the packs, was it not manifest that he expected you would be within communicating distance of the pack train?
A. I suppose he had found what he sent me out to find as you premise, and wanted me quickly as possible , and I got there as quickly as I could. I could not possibly tell what he may have thought. If it is a guess, I can guess, but how close I will be I don't know.
So your rendition is based on what?
"He then had found [something]"is the same as "I suppose he had found" therefore it must?
And then you state "That stated is a fact, not an opinion."
I think not.
AZ Ranger |
| Benteen |
Posted - November 20 2009 : 2:16:45 PM
quote:
It may be relevant, I don't know
As with most of your prattle, it is as we all know YOUR opinion, which you have a right to. But that's all it is, an opinion.
When one looks at the testimony and see's what he said one day, and what he stated the next, it is obvious that his testimony was conflicting. That stated is a fact, not an opinion. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 20 2009 : 08:11:37 AM
Benteen
The change in beliefs that we have been discussing has nothing to with the order or your rendition of a statement but if you could quote that from RCOI I would look at that. We are discussing what Benteen believed when he put up the guidon and believed Custer was alive. I don't see your rendition in this testimony. It may be relevant, I don't know, but for sure Benteen testifies that long after receiving Martin's note that he believed Custer was alive.
 |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 20 2009 : 07:58:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
I always found it interesting that Benteen stopped mid-sentence, and almost tells the truth, once again:
"I received and order to come on - be quick, big village - bring packs, Bring packs. He then had found what he had sent me to find..."
This rendition based upon his other testimony that stated the same.
In recorded testimony the words are what they are. Nice try to put your own rendition to the answer of that particular question but that is not the facts of the testimony it is fanasty. He stated his opinion there I believe because he was only a witness and not a defendant and wanted the court to hear his opinion. Benteen was not allowed to present his own case since Reno was the focus of the Reno court of inquiry. Apparently Benteen knew he could interject his opinion even when non responsive to a question. He was right and the court did not strike it from his testimony. You guys just have live with him stating his opinion on that day. Clearly it will always read beleive.
Benteen
Again
quote:
Does it say believe or believed? Is Benteen answering the question asked or inserting his current opinion?
If you don't agree it states believe or that he is inserting opinion rather than answering the question than please explain how you derive that?
Thanks
AZ Ranger
|
| Benteen |
Posted - November 20 2009 : 12:49:42 AM
I always found it interesting that Benteen stopped mid-sentence, and almost tells the truth, once again:
"I received and order to come on - be quick, big village - bring packs, Bring packs. He then had found what he had sent me to find..."
This rendition based upon his other testimony that stated the same.
Your welcome Joe,
Benteen |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - November 19 2009 : 9:45:08 PM
Benteen, thank you for your posts. Were it not for you 1 think I would think that I've lost it. Az, God bless you man. |
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