| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| terri |
Posted - November 27 2005 : 3:58:57 PM
From Grey's time motion study to Lakota Noon, I've spent the past few months imersed in Custer's defeat at the Little Big Horn. I'd like to ask you gentlemen and Ladies as to your thoughts on what brought about the 7th's defeat. Was it one thing or a combination of mistakes? Was it Custer's staff? Was Reno drunk? Was Benteen content to allow Custer to suffer and therefore not respond to orders to hurry?
For myself, I think its rather simple:
1. Custer was reckless.
a. Failure to alter his plan of battle. He possessed a seeming disregard for his Scouts intel on the hostile's strength. (In reading, Killing Custer, the author notes that Custer often failed to reconiter before attacking. The attack on Black Kettle's village was a prime example cited.)
b. He divided his force by sending Benteen off on a fruitless search for hostiles on the western fringes of the area. This kept Benteen out of close proximity for the crucial opening of attack. He went on to further splinter his force by ordering Reno to attack from the south.
c. AND, it appears to me he hadn't improved upon tactics he devised during the Civil War; tactics which coined the phrase, Custer's Luck. I believe Custer wanted a great charge from the north as well as the south to crush the hostiles. (Custer's charges were often noted by his detractors as causing a great loss of life- the lives of Custer's own men.).
2. He was out-generaled and out fought.
a. Crazy Horse was simply an undeniable force in melding Plains Warriors into a cohesive military fighting unit. What matter if they never fought together like this again. June 25th was all it took for Custer.
b. Sitting Bull's vision. Great way to psych up your side.
c. Rightous anger. Hard fuel to beat when its channeled correctly. In June 1876, the Plains Indians channeled it correctly.
d. Custer, who left men missing in action after the attack on Black Kettle's Village, hated by his command in Kansas, and Court Martialed for an offense in which he had other men shot, was nothing more than a mediocre battlefield commander.
3. Technology.
a. The Springfield carbine was hidious and left the soldiers at a severe disadvantage.
So basically, it wasn't one mistake which defeated the 7th. The defeat had many contributors. I've listed my top three above. I'd like to invite your comments. If you disagree with me, please spell it out. I'm open to learning as much as possible and I value your opinions. I will say this; I don't believe Custer disobeyed Terry's orders. Those orders were ambigious.
On Terry's orders, I will not change my mind. And I cite my opinion on the order's first paragraph as well as the much argued line giving Custer leeway. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 25 2006 : 9:40:48 PM
Of the other three the shooting deserters doesn't bother me as much.What bothers you is not the standard by which justice is governed. I agree. My viewpoint is coming from a subordinate position. If I don't desert I am not in trouble if the commanding officers leaves me on the battlefield I am in trouble. My point goes to leadership and not to justice. Punishing someone for abandoning the regiment must have been within the commanding officers purview. Therefore it was not unlawful or I would expect him to have received more severe punishment. I believe it was thought that shooting deserters was excessive and not to be tolerated but still within his authority.
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| wILD I |
Posted - January 25 2006 : 12:49:12 PM
During the civil war given the actions he preformed aren't they by nature high casualty rates?
No they are not.But Custer's casualties were higher than any other federal cavalry unit.
Of the other three the shooting deserters doesn't bother me as much.What bothers you is not the standard by which justice is governed.
Elliot from what I have read would have been dead anywayCuster did not know this.
As far as Reno we just don't when that lack of logical behavior began.
2.43 pm is as good a time as any. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 24 2006 : 11:41:29 PM
"Interesting theory. Custer sacrificed 5 companies rather face what a defeat of the 7th would mean to him personally if he survived.Sure.In the civil war his units had the highest casualty rate.He left Elliot to his fate,likewise Reno not to mention shooting deserters out of hand." During the civil war given the actions he preformed aren't they by nature high casualty rates? Of the other three the shooting deserters doesn't bother me as much. Elliot from what I have read would have been dead anyway. As far as Reno we just don't when that lack of logical behavior began. |
| wILD I |
Posted - January 24 2006 : 5:05:51 PM
Interesting theory. Custer sacrificed 5 companies rather face what a defeat of the 7th would mean to him personally if he survived.Sure.In the civil war his units had the highest casualty rate.He left Elliot to his fate,likewise Reno not to mention shooting deserters out of hand. |
| Benteen |
Posted - January 24 2006 : 11:59:27 AM
quote:
AZR ~ Benteen--Sure it does. Custer was not an unknown factor in disregarding commanding officer desires and orders. Terry could have chose to go with Custer and remained in command of the 7th.
While I do not disagree with you on Custer disregarding his "commanding officers desires and orders." Terry remaining with Custer or vise-versa was not something to be. And is something that would have to have been considered before the meeting aboard the Far West. Thus we have Boston's letter to his mother. Read it carefully. Note the key words and phrases that not only suggest "opportunity", but strongly implying that if such an opportunity arose it would be taken.
Boston Custer in a letter to his mother, June 8th 1876:
"I do hope this campaign will be a success, and if Armstrong could have his way I think it would be, but unfortunately there are men along whose campaign experience is very limited, but, haveing an exalted opinion of themselves, feel that their advice would be valuable in the field. But I think before this trip is over they will be thoroughly understood by those who should know."
Now then after the meeting on the Far West we have Custer stating emphatically that he has that opportunity. And in spite of everything else in Terry's orders this "extract" above anything else was emphasized to Libby with what word? "Keenly". Just who was "keenly appreciating Terry's words? And what opportunities did it open up? Flashback Boston's letter to his mother!
Merrington, Custer to Elisabeth, June 22, 1876
"I send you an extract from Genl. Terry's offical order, knowing how keenly you appreciate words of commendation and confidence in your dear Bo. 'It is of course impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement, and, were it not impossible to do so, the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy and ability to impose on you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy..'
Your devoted boy Autie"
And from this moment on it didn't matter, wouldn't matter one whit what Terry's would have or could have realized. All that mattered was those words he so "keenly" appreciated. Nothing else in Terry's orders mattered. Not one thing! Why? "I do hope this campaign will be a success, and if Armstrong could have his way I think it would be..." He now had his way, and what was he going to do with it? "I think before this trip is over they will be thoroughly understood by those who should know." And, "before this trip" was over he was going to do what? Make it "thoroughly understood" to those "whose campaign experience is very limited, but, haveing an exalted opinion of themselves, feel that their advice would be valuable in the field", "by those who should know"! |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 22 2006 : 10:32:02 PM
Wild-- quote:
Custer clearly saw the enormity of the task he had set himself.Sometime after 3.30 he saw all chance of redemption vanish.A laughing stock in Washington,now defeated on the field of battle by primatives.There was no going back to the missus now.How could he face Terry who had placed such confidance in him.Maybe face a courtmarshal.
During that last hour was Tom and Cooke pleding with him to do something.What anguish he must have enjured.That shot to the temple must have been a welcome release.
Interesting theory. Custer sacrificed 5 companies rather face what a defeat of the 7th would mean to him personally if he survived. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 22 2006 : 10:24:12 PM
quote:
Now I personally am not trying to take anything away from Terry or his decisions, nor am I trying to read his mind. Therefore I will let the Custer's answer this one.
Boston ~ "But I think before this trip is over they (TERRY & Gibbon) will be thoroughly understood by those who should know."(GAC, Tom, Boston, Autie, Calhoun etal...) In other words, would it have mattered one wit or another whether Terry realized "anything"?
Benteen--Sure it does. Custer was not an unknown factor in disregarding commanding officer desires and orders. Terry could have chose to go with Custer and remained in command of the 7th. |
| Benteen |
Posted - January 22 2006 : 9:03:10 PM
quote:
AZR ~ Terry was smart enough to realize that if he didn't stay with Custer it would have that effect.
Now I personally am not trying to take anything away from Terry or his decisions, nor am I trying to read his mind. Therefore I will let the Custer's answer this one.
Boston ~ "But I think before this trip is over they (TERRY & Gibbon) will be thoroughly understood by those who should know."(GAC, Tom, Boston, Autie, Calhoun etal...) In other words, would it have mattered one wit or another whether Terry realized "anything"?
quote:
Wild1 ~ Reading between the lines this sounds like a scoulded schoolboy looking for some crumb of comfort.
Custer's state of mind is not uncommon.It was something akin to summit fever.This syndrome has resulted in the death's of many sportsmen who's egos just will not let them accept defeat.These people put enormous pressure on themselves.They give hostages to fortune and their reputations are paramount.
Custer clearly saw the enormity of the task he had set himself.Sometime after 3.30 he saw all chance of redemption vanish.A laughing stock in Washington,now defeated on the field of battle by primatives.There was no going back to the missus now.How could he face Terry who had placed such confidance in him.Maybe face a courtmarshal. During that last hour was Tom and Cooke pleding with him to do something.What anguish he must have enjured.That shot to the temple must have been a welcome release.
While I agree that Custer's state of mind was less than acceptable that day. I cannot agree that this was a major cause of this disaster. In the end, yes, it played it's part, and to that degree you are correct. What we fail to realize is that someone else determined the destiny of the 7th that day. And that someone was the one who led the Regiment forward while Custer was on the Crow's Nest. That someone was also the one who believed that the discovery of somthing so simple as a cracker box betrayed thier presence to the indians. That someone was also supposedly credible indian scout(s) that believed (no they had no positive proof) that they had been discovered and so conveyed to Custer this "belief." Perhaps, just perhaps had Custer not been so fatigued by the night march, had he been able to think things through. Send scouting missions out to find out the truth.... ad infinitum... He would have done exactly what he said he was going to do. Wait until the wee early morning hours of the 26th, surround and attack them then.
Custer's error's certainly played it's part, there can be no doubt in that. But his error's wasn't the one's that created the fiasco now known as Custer's Last Stand. One doesn't need to wonder what pleadings came from Custer's men. One must assess what was going through his mind about the person who compromised the mission by bringing forth the regiment... erronious cracker box reports of discovery... and half crazed indian scouts who couldn't wait to steal not 100's of indian ponies as Custer expected, but only 2 or 3 per scout, just as Bloody knife did. What was it he said... taking about 3 stolen Sioux ponies back. "Here take these, that ONE is mine." Custer was concerned not about individual horses and who their owners in the end would be. He wanted the whole herd stampeded. What he got was certainly less. And one can only imagine what his thoughts were of those scouts who were supposed to run those horses off. Certainly when he seen hundreds if not thousands of indians mounted and coming to drive and pound his tiny band into the dust of LSH.
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| wILD I |
Posted - January 22 2006 : 3:55:51 PM
Of course one could argue the point that Terry didn't just "turn him loose." Because I don't want to open that can of worms, instead will offer this.
There are no sacred cans Benteen.Let's open them all in persuit of the probable truth.
And If you will note, Custer's letter to his wife not only told of the "words of commendation and confidence" of Terry
Reading between the lines this sounds like a scoulded schoolboy looking for some crumb of comfort.
Custer's state of mind is not uncommon.It was something akin to summit fever.This syndrome has resulted in the death's of many sportsmen who's egos just will not let them accept defeat.These people put enormous pressure on themselves.They give hostages to fortune and their reputations are paramount.
Custer clearly saw the enormity of the task he had set himself.Sometime after 3.30 he saw all chance of redemption vanish.A laughing stock in Washington,now defeated on the field of battle by primatives.There was no going back to the missus now.How could he face Terry who had placed such confidance in him.Maybe face a courtmarshal.
During that last hour was Tom and Cooke pleding with him to do something.What anguish he must have enjured.That shot to the temple must have been a welcome release. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 22 2006 : 3:31:20 PM
quote:
Of course one could argue the point that Terry didn't just "turn him loose." Because I don't want to open that can of worms, instead will offer this.
Merrington, Custer to Elisabeth, June 22, 1876
"I send you an extract from Genl. Terry's offical order, knowing how keenly you appreciate words of commendation and confidence in your dear Bo. 'It is of course impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement, and, were it not impossible to do so, the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy and ability to impose on you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy..'
Your devoted boy Autie"
Based upon what Boston said to his mother on the 8th. And what Custer later said to his wife on the 22nd it paints a portrait of "opportunity". If the opportunity ever came when he (Custer) could seize the initiative from Terry, he would do so. And If you will note, Custer's letter to his wife not only told of the "words of commendation and confidence" of Terry on Custer's behalf, what he didn't say was the rest of Terry's orders that would have restricted this "movement" when not so nearly in contact with the enemy!
Benteen-- I believe Terry only had two choices stay with Custer or let him go. Terry was smart enough to realize that if he didn't stay with Custer it would have that effect. |
| Benteen |
Posted - January 22 2006 : 12:08:30 PM
Of course one could argue the point that Terry didn't just "turn him loose." Because I don't want to open that can of worms, instead will offer this.
Merrington, Custer to Elisabeth, June 22, 1876
"I send you an extract from Genl. Terry's offical order, knowing how keenly you appreciate words of commendation and confidence in your dear Bo. 'It is of course impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement, and, were it not impossible to do so, the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy and ability to impose on you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy..'
Your devoted boy Autie"
Based upon what Boston said to his mother on the 8th. And what Custer later said to his wife on the 22nd it paints a portrait of "opportunity". If the opportunity ever came when he (Custer) could seize the initiative from Terry, he would do so. And If you will note, Custer's letter to his wife not only told of the "words of commendation and confidence" of Terry on Custer's behalf, what he didn't say was the rest of Terry's orders that would have restricted this "movement" when not so nearly in contact with the enemy! |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 22 2006 : 09:31:11 AM
Benteen- quote:
In other words was Custer capable of command at that time? I sure wouldn't have wanted him to be the pilot of my aircraft, that's for sure! Let alone giving him charge of over 650 men bent on proving something that could never be.
Certainly Terry and his Superiors most have thought Custer capable of command. Terry had complete control of Custer but chose to turn him loose on his own. What does that say about Terry? He didn't mind Custer piloting an aircraft just as long as he wasn't in it??? |
| Benteen |
Posted - January 21 2006 : 7:29:37 PM
In other words was Custer capable of command at that time? I sure wouldn't have wanted him to be the pilot of my aircraft, that's for sure! Let alone giving him charge of over 650 men bent on proving something that could never be.
quote:
Wild1....Meanwhile back in Washington our hero has publically hung himself.He is a laughting stock and has been treated in the most appaling humilating manner.His evidence to the committee dealing with the charges against Belknap has been found to be no more that vicious gossip except in the case of one piece of evidence dealing with what appeared to be a dodgy delivery of corn.
Terry in the mean time finds himself in the s***.His list of alternate commanders has been rejected and he has been ordered to command the column himself.You can still hear his expletives echo down the years.But he has friends in Washington and he coaches Custer with his begging letter.
The humilated Custer is relieved to be out of Washington and back with his regiment.And now for the last cut which is delivered by his mentor and savior Terry and proves to be the deepest.Bye the Bye says Terry that dodgy delivery of corn which you thought was ordered by Belknap was in fact ordered by me.You can hear Custer's silent scream.
Fastforward to the Indian trail and Custer can't wait to follow it."To hell with Washington and nice General Terry I'll show those bastards."His mental state must have been one of turmoil.Not the right frame of mind to face the unexpected with.
It is said that the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eaton.Well the battle of the LBH was lost in the waiting rooms of the White House.
And I might add....
Flashback Merrington ~ Boston Custer in a letter to his mother, June 8th 1876:
"I do hope this campaign will be a success, and if Armstrong could have his way I think it would be, but unfortunately there are men along whose campaign experience is very limited, but, haveing an exalted opinion of themselves, feel that their advice would be valuable in the field. But I think before this trip is over they will be thoroughly understood by those who should know."
Those who should know? We now know who they were, don't we?
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| wILD I |
Posted - January 21 2006 : 09:55:39 AM
I would agree that it appears there was some type of brain failure.
Well just to reinforce this assertion and recapitulate.
There's no evidence that Custer tried to support Reno
There's no evidence that he made a serious attempt to attack the village.
There's no evidence that he tried to withdraw towards Benteen.
There's no evidence that he tried to break through to Terry.
And there's no evidence of a serious attempt at defence.
All consistant with lack of brain/leadership activity. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 18 2006 : 11:48:04 PM
Wild- quote:
Stress, exhaustion ,depression,hostages given to fortune[we can whip any number of indians]and then one massive village was too much for our hero and he just froze.His brain ceased to function.My sparring partner DC also holds that his brain ceased to function though for another reason.
Terry knew full well what this expedition ment for Custer and he knew the state of mind he was in ,even adding to it himself with his chiding of Custer over the corn.But Terry acted in his own best interests and let Custer off the leash.
I would agree that it appears there was some type of brain failure. I believe it would not have been cowardliness. The last we know is apparently he was not afraid after looking at the village. If he was not wounded or killed before LSH maybe a family member being killed locked up his brain. Since the officers were better mounted one expect to find them if they were running without brain power left at the lead of a stretched out line. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 18 2006 : 11:29:08 PM
Terri- Actually there is one question that I would have liked answered and that is when was Custer wounded and where did he die. I can't see that a soldier would gain an advantage lying about that but maybe they would. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 18 2006 : 11:19:55 PM
Terri- quote:
quote:
I think maybe the myth would survive. What you'd have is one loan survivor; a Romantic hero; a trooper to tend Custer's myth. I think Victorians would have eaten it up. And I believe no matter what the officer stated, it would have been twisted to fit the archtype society wanted. I doubt the officer, out of loyalty to the 7th would have painted a bleak picture of the command in regarding mistakes etc... In Victorian times, I just don't see this happening.
Then for discussion purposes leave several alive then. To me it wouldn't matter what the officer or trooper said. To have shown no mercy points to what mindset you are dealing with and how to handle them in the future. You may win the battle but unless you are truly superior you won't win the war. Buffalo Bill and Wounded Knee comes to mind. |
| Heavyrunner |
Posted - January 16 2006 : 7:36:32 PM
June 25th, 1876.
Custer at the top of Medicine Tail Coulee:
"In blood I am
stepp'd in so far
that to turn back
would be as tedious
as go o'er."
This could get fun... |
| terri |
Posted - January 16 2006 : 12:54:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
quote:
What in the world do you find so strange? The only thing odd about the battle is the intense emotion it stirs up, almost entirely about issues unrelated to the battle.
DC, WILD, Terri - Do you think in retrospect if the Indians had left one one officer to tell the other side in eye witness detail that there would be as much made of LBH?
I think maybe the myth would survive. What you'd have is one loan survivor; a Romantic hero; a trooper to tend Custer's myth. I think Victorians would have eaten it up. And I believe no matter what the officer stated, it would have been twisted to fit the archtype society wanted. I doubt the officer, out of loyalty to the 7th would have painted a bleak picture of the command in regarding mistakes etc... In Victorian times, I just don't see this happening. |
| wILD I |
Posted - January 16 2006 : 12:22:01 PM
DC, WILD, Terri - Do you think in retrospect if the Indians had left one one officer to tell the other side in eye witness detail that there would be as much made of LBH?
If it had been a gallant last stand then it would have ranked alongside the Alamo if it was the walk over which it seems to have been then Mi Lai might just outrank.
I have debated every aspect of this battle over the last year or so and up until now I would have believed that Custer alone was totally responsible for the desaster.Now I'm not so sure.Perhaps if justice was to be done he is entitled to a fool's pardon.Terry must shoulder an awful lot of the blame.Terry did not want to be column commander.Custer was his last chance of dodging this detail.What matter what state of mind Custer was in.Custer's gigantic ego was holed below the water line and he was now the laughing stock of Washington.The stress he was under must have been enormous.Brisban thinks he is out of his mind and implores Terry to insist he takes the 2nd cavalry with him.But Terry will not confront him,he even ignores Custer's unauthorised scout with 4 troops.Godfrey's journal is full of remarks regarding the change in Custer's character.A gloom seems to be all pervading with officers making their wills.Boyer is convinced that Custer will get them all killed.He does not listen to his scouts.At critical points such as Reno's defeat or MTC he seems unable to respond.And one has only to look at how the regiment ended up to conclude that there was little or no response when the end came.
Stress, exhaustion ,depression,hostages given to fortune[we can whip any number of indians]and then one massive village was too much for our hero and he just froze.His brain ceased to function.My sparring partner DC also holds that his brain ceased to function though for another reason.
Terry knew full well what this expedition ment for Custer and he knew the state of mind he was in ,even adding to it himself with his chiding of Custer over the corn.But Terry acted in his own best interests and let Custer off the leash. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 15 2006 : 4:39:03 PM
quote:
What in the world do you find so strange? The only thing odd about the battle is the intense emotion it stirs up, almost entirely about issues unrelated to the battle.
DC, WILD, Terri - Do you think in retrospect if the Indians had left one one officer to tell the other side in eye witness detail that there would be as much made of LBH? |
| wILD I |
Posted - January 14 2006 : 5:35:20 PM
What in the world do you find so strange? The only thing odd about the battle is the intense emotion it stirs up, almost entirely about issues unrelated to the battle.
The unbeliveable happenstance of it all.The slings and arrows outragious fortune which wound our hero. The commedy of errors which leads to the irony of Custer's savior being responsible for his shuffling off this mortal coil which in turn bestowed imortality on him. But as you say it's much ado about nothing.But for the merry wives was it to be or not to be all's well that ends well. |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - January 14 2006 : 1:29:18 PM
"The problem is that in this tragedy fact is stranger than fiction.Shakespheare could not have written better."
YEAH, he could and yeah he did. Don't think for a moment that Shakespeare's various historical plays didn't influence the tale of the LBH, as they had most events for centuries, allowing various fiascos to be patted into majestic shape for 'history." The literary template of the English language in spades.
What in the world do you find so strange? The only thing odd about the battle is the intense emotion it stirs up, almost entirely about issues unrelated to the battle. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 14 2006 : 09:29:39 AM
Hi Terri
quote:
Rightous anger. Hard fuel to beat when its channeled correctly. In June 1876, the Plains Indians channeled it correctly.
I am not sure being angry helps to win a battle. I would rather have fully trained and disciplined troopers than untrained angry ones. The best individuals to be in a combat situation with are calm and maintain control over themselves. Easier to say then done. Training and more practical application of the training in preparation for battle would be much better than a pep talk to get you mad.
Anger led to the Indians killing 5 companies to the last man and mutilating their bodies. Maybe if they were less angry and took prisoners it could allow them to negotiate some terms and they would have been better off. Custer captured by Crazy horse would have been a better headline for the Indians than Custer massacred.
It takes a lot more than anger to win the war. Their display of anger helped to solidify their enemy. I would guess it was hard to find large numbers of vocal persons sympathetic to their cause in July of 1876. |
| wILD I |
Posted - January 13 2006 : 12:09:26 PM
You are of course right Terri.You can't beat a classical education.
Agincourt the same odds but this time victory is with the outnumbered. |
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