| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wrangler |
Posted - October 17 2003 : 9:06:51 PM
Hello All,
It is Friday, February 7, 1879. It is the twenty-third day of the Reno Court of Inquiry. Major Reno’s testimony continues...
"...I moved forward in accordance with the orders received from Lieutenant Cooke to the head of the column. Soon after that Lieutenant Cooke came to me and said, "General Custer directs you to take as rapid a gait as you think prudent and charge the village afterwards, and you will be supported by the whole outfit". [Nichols RCOI, 561]
This order, recollected by Major Reno and Lt. Wallace in their testimony, has been the source of much debate. Much of it centers on what was meant by the word "supported". In modern US Army interpretations of the word, he was not supported. But what did the word mean back then? Research continues, but here is an interim report.
At the following link you will find the document from which I have extracted what follows:
http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/download/lectures/Craig.pdf
This document is a lecture on Cavalry in the Offense given by a Captain Craig, 10USC at the Infantry and Cavalry School at Fort Leavenworth in November 1904. I will start this exploration with a question I extracted from Craig's Question Sheet he intended for his students. I have attempted to extract the answer from his lecture text.
4. Why is a support necessary for an attacking line, and where is it posted with respect to that line under various conditions?
In order then, to prevent a charging body from being defeated by a fresh hostile force held in hand for the purpose, during the moments of disorder due to success, as well as to guard against a counter charge, it is necessary to have a support close at hand. As the flanks are dangerously weak points in cavalry, this support must be so posted that it can be readily thrown forward to protect its own attacking line, or diverted to attack the enemy’ s flank if opportunity offers. It is therefore usually echeloned on the outer, or more exposed flank, from which position it is more readily launched against the flank of the hostile cavalry.
If in rear of the attacking line, the intervals are necessary to prevent its being run down by troopers who in ease of a retreat generally break straight to the rear in disorder.
The support is as a rule drawn into the melee for one reason or another, hence an reserve is necessary to decide the victory and conduct the pursuit, or cover the retreat in ease of defeat.
The reserve is usually echeloned on the flank opposite to that of the support. In general, the support and the reserve relieve the forces in front of them of all anxiety about the flanks.
In a cavalry combat, that force which is last able to bring a formed reserve into action, is as a rule victorious.
Where the force is small, the duties of the support and the reserve are generally combined in a single body, part being kept well in hand and unbroken, while the remainder is launched into the fight.
As a general rule, however, cavalry attacks in three bodies, -an attacking line, -a support –and a reserve…
Organizations should always if possible be preserved intact, though in small bodies the same troops may furnish the reserve and the support. Distances between subdivisions of the attacking force vary with its size, and depend to a great extent on the natural cover afforded by the terrain.
In the case of a troop [company in 1876], the distance from the attacking line to the support is about 80 to 90 yards, from the latter to the reserve from 150 to 175 yards-in the case of a Brigade or a Division, the former distance is from 275 to 300 yards, the latter from 175 to 225 yards.
In case the flank of the attacking line is seriously threatened, the support may be closed to not less than 100 yards. When the support is echeloned on the flank, its inner flank should be from 75 to 100 yards beyond the outer flank of the attacking line; the reserve in such a case is similarly posted with respect to the flank on which it is placed.
From this extract, it would appear by the 1904 definition of the word "supported"--Major Reno's command was not supported. Research continues for pre-LBH definitions and I will report the findings.
v/r
Wrangler |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - October 20 2011 : 12:11:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
Custer never told Reno to hold the timber and must have trusted Reno's judgment. If we follow Joe's theory than Custer could have a bugler blow charge if he wanted Reno to charge the village.
Actually, and I'm sure you will agree we don't know what all Custer told Reno;do we? I have never posted, to my knowledge,the theory you credit me with. Could you find it and post it so as to jog my memory?
Seems that Reno's retrograde still accomplishes two things; the Indians remaining to fight and that they are away from the village.
quote:
Again I'm a bit confused, when did Reno move backward (retrograde)? His initial charged/moved/cantered toward, galloped was toward the village. He then charged/moved/cantered,galloped toward etc. away from the village. The only other movement in the middle of all this was his leaving the skirmish line (abandoning the troopers to make their own decisions) and waiting in the "park" area until he decided to "charge" south. He arrived upon Reno Hill due to the flanking movement of the warriors which forced him to a crossing;he did not select one!
Its the Indians observation that Custer was moving toward the village that caused them to react. There is nothing to indicate they would not have done that from the timber location they surrounded. Did they have the discipline to stay surrounding the timber while Custer rode in and killed their families, destroyed their property, and ran their horses off?
quote:
The Indians did not know Custer was moving toward the village as he had not been sighted until after Reno's aborted "charge" or whatever it was. Your second statement defies logic when one realizes that it was never necessary for them to "surround" the village and wait for Custer to attack. Thanks to the stalwart leadership of Reno, they were able to leave the timber unmolested,surround Custer and destroy his command, while a greater number of soldiers (more than Custer's entire command)were slowly slaughtered while Reno refused to move until allthe packs arrived;not just the ammunition packs but the beans, shirts, canned fruit,Calhoun's cake his wife sent,socks, beef jerky, hard tack,underwear, horse shoes,a second change of underwear and other essentials needed to fight the Sioux.
AZ Ranger
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| AZ Ranger |
Posted - October 10 2011 : 10:41:16 AM
Custer never told Reno to hold the timber and must have trusted Reno's judgment. If we follow Joe's theory than Custer could have a bugler blow charge if he wanted Reno to charge the village.
Seems that Reno's retrograde still accomplishes two things; the Indians remaining to fight and that they are away from the village.
Its the Indians observation that Custer was moving toward the village that caused them to react. There is nothing to indicate they would not have done that from the timber location they surrounded. Did they have the discipline to stay surrounding the timber while Custer rode in and killed their families, destroyed their property, and ran their horses off?
AZ Ranger |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - October 08 2011 : 4:07:42 PM
Hi T-mac, yes there were one or two sightings shortly prior to Reno's entry into the timber. I do not believe there were any sightings after;of course I could be wrong.
Custer could have sounded "recall" if he wanted Reno to abandon the timber. The question that such an act would produce is why should he?. The timber was defensible as any other location in the area;more so! The fact that no "recall" was sounded could have been the result of two factors: Custer did not wish to do so or he was under the impression that Reno had continued to carry out his orders.
Custer would not have known of Reno's position,definitively, until he was notified by Mitch (scout) that Reno had abandoned the field which would have nullified any need for such a command of "recall.".
kanipe was dispatched prior to Custer's command entering the coulée that led to Medicine Trail Coulée and Martini was dispatched shortly after. |
| t-mac |
Posted - October 06 2011 : 08:00:43 AM
i've read that the custer sighting was while the men were still on the skirmish line.is this not true? also,would they have not sounded recall if custer had of wanted reno to abandon the attack?wasn't it at this point that kanipe was dispatched to find benteen and the pack train?also,martin was sent back with the note just before custer crossed medicine tail coulee.
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| Wrangler |
Posted - January 09 2004 : 01:21:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Halmyers
The subject of seeing Custer on the buff's from Reno's position has always been of interest. First of all you are looking upwards for three-quarters of a mile. Secondly you are in the heat of battle, and it lasted 35 minutes.
A question came to me the other night while reading about halts on the 25th. Is it possible that the guys on the ridge were Cooke, Keogh, and Pvt. A. McIlarghey and/or Pvt. J. Mitchell? Both were sent by Major Reno as messengers at/about the time his battalion was in the vicinity of Ford A watering horses or at the beginning of the movement down the valley to the village. Cooke and Keogh had followed Reno’s battalion to this point. Perhaps somewhere on the trail en route to Custer, one or both of these messengers linked up with Cooke and Keogh. Thoughts? |
| Anonymous Poster8169 |
Posted - October 24 2003 : 09:38:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
How come you get to be Anonymous again? I HATE signing in and the music lasts, I'm quite sure, .0098 seconds longer when I sign in. An intolerable interlude.
Mumble.
As a joke --- and to thumb my nose at the "system". I still have to sign in. Pretty damned pointless, isn't it?
R. Larsen
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| El Crab |
Posted - October 24 2003 : 06:08:02 AM
If Custer was trying to wave off the attack, I think his battalion would not have moved so far north afterwards. They would have retreated to try and go back and aid Reno. Or, at worst, stayed in the MTC complex. |
| vet777a |
Posted - October 23 2003 : 5:40:54 PM
[/quote]
I consider that very unlikely; what subordinate (I'm speaking of Reno and the men with him) would be so dumb --- not to mention reckless --- as to call off an attack solely because they saw, from a far distance, two guys on horseback who may or may not have been waving at them? Try explaining THAT one at your court-martial.
R. Larsen
[/quote]
I understand your point. But, I do not consider it unlikely as a last ditch effort. Of course Reno would not of stopped under that scenario. My point is that the village size was actually seen by Custer. This is when he decided to find the closet crossing. When he did, he dispatched Martin (Martini) with the note to Benteen..."Big village..bring packs.." He knew it was too late to stop Reno. But, as I said, It could of been a final effort to do so. |
| vet777a |
Posted - October 23 2003 : 5:06:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
But.....Curly says it's Boyeur.
Well, I have read accounts that is was Cooke, Custer, Boyer, etc. Perhaps Bouyer was waving good-bye to Curly as he said he was going to be with Custer. Then Curly was mis-interpreted as what I feel happened to a lot that Curly had said. |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - October 23 2003 : 4:35:40 PM
Well, with that as a possibility, if it was Custer and he WAS calling off the attack or saying stay put, than the hat wave has significance.
But.....Curly says it's Boyeur. |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - October 23 2003 : 4:30:53 PM
How come you get to be Anonymous again? I HATE signing in and the music lasts, I'm quite sure, .0098 seconds longer when I sign in. An intolerable interlude.
Mumble. |
| Anonymous Poster8169 |
Posted - October 23 2003 : 3:08:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by vet777a
[quote]DC: Perhaps the waved hat was not a 'hip-hip-hurah' gesture at all. I wonder if it was not meant to be a 'wave-off' of the attack. As one would wave their arms back and forth to stop an action. This done because the actual village size was now seen. Reno did not stop at that point. Then came the dash to find the nearest crossing to give support, or draw away the Indians which would of been MTF. Just a thought.
I consider that very unlikely; what subordinate (I'm speaking of Reno and the men with him) would be so dumb --- not to mention reckless --- as to call off an attack solely because they saw, from a far distance, two guys on horseback who may or may not have been waving at them? Try explaining THAT one at your court-martial.
R. Larsen
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| vet777a |
Posted - October 23 2003 : 1:13:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Further, what difference does it make? And what would a waved hat signify?
DC: Perhaps the waved hat was not a 'hip-hip-hurah' gesture at all. I wonder if it was not meant to be a 'wave-off' of the attack. As one would wave their arms back and forth to stop an action. This done because the actual village size was now seen. Reno did not stop at that point. Then came the dash to find the nearest crossing to give support, or draw away the Indians which would of been MTF. Just a thought. |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - October 23 2003 : 11:59:05 AM
....although Curly claimed Boyeur, who was dressed in bucks, waved to the troops at that place, at that time in his presence. White or tan at that distance not distinguishable and nobody had time for a prolonged squint. Further, what difference does it make? And what would a waved hat signify? |
| El Crab |
Posted - October 23 2003 : 05:15:05 AM
Its possible to make out a person by their mannerisms and stature. I've been several hundred yards from someone and been able to tell its them by certain characteristics that I recognize. Its very possible that Custer was recognized by his manner of dress and/or his horse. Others wore buckskins, similar clothing, etc., but did anyone wear white trousers with a blue/gray pullover, big black boots, a big hat with the brow turned up and a red tie? About how far was the person on the bluffs from when the person(s) who spotted the figure? What's the approximate minimum and maximum distance? And who said it? I remember reading several persons stating it was Custer that they saw on the ridge. Maybe they were able to verify this after Kanipe or Martin returned to the Reno/Benteen force? Its feasible they saw a rider, then were educated on Custer's having traveled to the bluffs by someone who left the battalion before it was destroyed... |
| frankboddn |
Posted - October 21 2003 : 8:29:17 PM
 inwit: When I was on the valley floor, Reno Woods, Reno Crossing in 1999, I used my camcorder and videod everything. I can't remember if I zoomed in, but I probably did. I can tell you that if you're standing right smack dab at Reno Crossing, right at the river, and looking up at Reno Hill, you wouldn't be able to make out beards or distinguishing features. Colors, of course, and clothing. But details like that, I don't think so. And the woods is probably another quarter to half a mile from Reno Crossing. I'll have to review my tape and see what I can see. I'm also looking at some still prints of pictures I took at Reno Crossing looking up at Reno Hill, and with the naked eye you can't even tell makes of cars, etc. Using it in the reverse, if you have any pictures taken from Reno Hill looking down at Reno Crossing, see if you think any distinguishing features could be made out of someone standing down at the river. Again, the timber, etc., is even further away. With binoculars, I still doubt you could make out beards, etc. Just my thoughts. |
| Halmyers |
Posted - October 21 2003 : 1:08:50 PM
Hi Wrangler,
Thank you, It was a great honor for me to serve this
Great country and the American people for 25 years.
Hal |
| Wrangler |
Posted - October 21 2003 : 01:37:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Halmyers
I have been in combat
Hal,
Lest we forget. Thank-you for your service and sacrifice.
v/r
Wrangler |
| inwit |
Posted - October 20 2003 : 5:00:47 PM
Halmyers,
Yes, there is somthing a little too "theatric" regarding the scene of Custer waiving. On the other hand, men in Reno's woods were lokking for signs of Custer helping. If such a thing happened, it would have to have occurred before Custer's battle began.
In regard to your experiences (Vietnam - Gulf ?), I recall a humorous version of the Little Big Horn from Stephan Ambrose's book Crazy Horse and Custer, to the effect that "there must have been a moment when these two great warriors saw each other during the battle and gazed at each other in mutual appreciation" or something extremely corny like that. As you say, that is scarcely possible. |
| Halmyers |
Posted - October 20 2003 : 3:41:55 PM
In Wit,
The subject of seeing Custer on the buff's from Reno's
position has always been of interest. First of all you
are looking upwards for three-quarters of a mile. Secondly
you are in the heat of battle, and it lasted 35 minutes.
And I do not believe Custer would be exposing himself to
the indians. I have been in combat, there is a great amount
of confustion going on. Smoke, dust, in coming fire, half
the time I did not know who was along side me let alone
three-quarters of a mile away. Your trying to stay alive,
and trying to do what ever you can to get the job done, there
was no time to be looking for anybody except the enemy
Hal |
| inwit |
Posted - October 20 2003 : 2:52:25 PM
frankboddn,
Yes, Girard testified that the waiver was about 1,000 yards away.
Why doesn't somebody go to the Reno woods and take some photos of the bluff locations? I don't think I have ever seen such an attempt. (Or at least an experiment with someone with a long beard).
Nothing is ever clear about this battle. |
| frankboddn |
Posted - October 20 2003 : 2:10:37 PM
 inwit, I didn't notice who said they could recognize Cooke because of his long beard when Custer was waving, but if you're standing on the valley floor, I think even with binoculars you'd be hardpressed to see if a person had a beard. |
| inwit |
Posted - October 20 2003 : 12:13:53 PM
I agree that there are problems regarding the hat waiving incident.
Girard testified that he thought he recognized Custer by the blue shirt and buckskin pants, but definitely recognized Cooke by the long beard.
Some have said the hat waiver was Bouyer as Curly spoke of him in a hat waiving incident to Reno's men. this makes more sense as Custer must have been at or near MTC at the time.
As to support from Reno's backside, this allows an escape of the women and children if the warriors can hold the line (although they feared cavalry charges). |
| alfuso |
Posted - October 19 2003 : 11:25:52 AM
But was the hat-waver even Custer? Why stand on a bluff and wave to your command while the "hostiles" were watching? A "bluff" perhaps?
Someone did a photo study placing a person on that bluff and taking pictures from about where Reno was. Granted the photog should have put the guy on a horse... But given there were several officers in buckskins that day, why is it a given that the hat-waver is Custer?
Benteen wasn't necessarily "sent away" - he just might have been told to come in from the left.
This goes to the school of thought that Reno and Benteen had more orders but weren't letting on later on.
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| Brent |
Posted - October 19 2003 : 07:29:13 AM
Inwit:
Waving his hat etc was a nice touch and I'm sure Custer wanted to help. But even if Reno hadn't seen (or known of) that gesture, I suspect he was aware that Custer was attempting to give that promised suport. But I don't think that an "attempt" was what Reno was after. I think he had that word "support" ( and also maybe the "whole outfit") fixed in his mind and when it wasn't forthcoming (in a real sense) in a rather immediate fashion, he slowed then stopped the charge.
More proper instructions to Reno might have gone like this:
"Marcus--you are going to make this charge by yourself. I've sent Benteen away so don't look for him to help anytime soon. You're going to need to give me about 1/2 hour or so to figure out where exactly I'm going to attack from my end. I really don't know what shape this vIllage takes, or exactly where I can attack it. So I'm going to need you and those 130 guys to sort of carry things until I can work all this out. Good luck!!"
Or something like that---. But still asking too much of THAT man and 130 men. |
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