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CT•Ranger
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 Posted - January 17 2003 : 8:12:32 PM
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Lainy posted the following quote under the "Saudi's" topic. I've started a new topic here in response, as I thought there might be a few people interested.
"The Palestinians are descendants of the ancient Canaanites [3rd millenium B.C.] & Philistines [13th century B.C.] & have inhabited Palestine, including Jericho & Jerusalem, since early biblical ages."
This claim has been very popular with Palestinians lately and is a very controversial topic. The issue is not so clear cut as it may appear. Basically, some Palestinians are trying to legitimize the Palestinian presence in Israel by claiming the modern Palestinians are the direct descendants of the ancient Canaanites and Philistines. Therefore, (their reasoning goes) they were there first, and have the right to be there, while the Jews don't. These Palestinian archaeologists and historians are basically trying to write the Jews out of history until about the Persian or Hellenistic period, with some as late as the first centuries BCE and CE. And the Palestinians aren't the only ones trying to erase Jewish history, there are many post-modern revisionists who deny "Ancient Israel" even existed in any form at all. Obviously Israeli archaeologists don't agree, as well as many other non-Israeli, non-Jewish archaeologists and ancient historians. This is clear misuse of archaeology and history for political purposes. I've posted here an article which gives a basic summary of the controversy.
Palestinians And Jews Spar Over Archaeological Claims
JERUSALEM, Israel (NEWSROOM) -- Amid gunfire and rock throwing, Palestinian archaeologists are engaged in an academic battle with their Israeli counterparts over the history of the Holy Land.
Palestinian politicians are urging their scholars to find proof that antiquity supports their claims to the region and its holy sites. Israeli negotiators at the most recent Camp David peace talks say that the archeological issue was the hottest topic, with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat attempting to delegitimize Israeli claims and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak using historical counter arguments.
Dispute over what touched off the recent clashes is itself rooted in historical concerns. Palestinians call current violence an "Al-Aqsa intifada" after the mosque located on what Jews refer to as the Temple Mount, a sacred Jewish site under Israeli sovereignty since 1967 where archaeological digs continue. The Palestinian Authority insists the violence was sparked by conservative Israeli leader Ariel Sharon's visit to the Mount, which is revered in the Muslim world as the Noble Sanctuary.
Israeli leaders argue, however, that Islamic leaders from Umm al-Fahm, one of the largest Arab communities in Israel, were holding rallies for an "Al-Aqsa intifada" long before Sharon's visit. The slogan "Al-Aqsa is in danger" has been the rallying cry of the Islamic movement in Israel for years, the Israelis point out. The movement has invested labor and millions of dollars donated by the Arab Gulf states into restoring Al-Aqsa and publicizing allegations that Israel plans to annex the mosque. For years Arab towns around Galilee were pasted with posters depicting the chained golden dome surrounded by a halo of fire with a clenched fist rising out of the flames.
Analysts agree that Sharon's visit, accompanied by a large contingency of Israeli police, provoked a particularly raw religious and political nerve among Arabs, but Israel insists that was not the intention. Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami asked in a recent meeting with prominent Israeli Arabs: "Does anybody think that there is a sane person in this country, this government, who wants to harm the sacredness of Islam, who wants to harm Al-Aqsa? We have had sovereignty over the Temple Mount for 30 years, and we have never changed the status quo. Under our sovereignty, the biggest mosque in the Middle East has been constructed."
But the more militant northern wing of
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YMHS,
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Posted - January 17 2003 : 9:21:00 PM
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Sensation or forgery? Researchers hail dramatic First Temple period finding
By Nadav Shragai
An inscription attributed to Jehoash, the king of Judea who ruled in Jerusalem at the end of the ninth century B.C.E., has been authenticated by experts from the National Infrastructure Ministry's Geological Survey of Israel following months of examination. The 10-line fragment, which was apparently found on the Temple Mount, is written in the first person on a black stone tablet in ancient Phoenician script. The inscription's description of Temple "house repairs" ordered by King Jehoash strongly resembles passages in the Second Book of Kings, chapter 12.
Dr. Gabriel Barkai, a leading Israeli archaeologist from Bar Ilan University's Land of Israel Studies Department, says that if the inscription proves to be authentic, the finding is a "sensation" of the greatest import. It could be, he says, the most significant archaeological finding yet in Jerusalem and the Land of Israel. It would be a first-of-its kind piece of physical evidence describing events in a manner that adheres to the narrative in the Bible.
According to Dr. Barkai, such a finding, which appears to furnish proof of the existence of the Temple, must be made available for examination by scholars, and can not be kept a virtual secret.
Detailed research findings about the inscription are to be disclosed in a collection of articles published by the Geology Survey of Israel, a government research institute. Research studies have been prepared by Dr. Shimon Ilani, Dr. Amnon Rosenfeld and Michael Dvorchik, the institute's chief technician who carried out electronic microscope tests of the inscription that, the three say, were largely responsible for the finding's authentication.
Apart from noting that the discovery was made in Jerusalem, the researchers do not disclose where the inscription was found. But sources have indicated that the writing surfaced in the Temple Mount area as a result of widescale excavation work done in recent years in the area by Muslims, and that Palestinians relayed the fragment to a major collector of antiquities in Jerusalem.
The Jerusalem collector is represented by attorney Isaac Herzog, a former cabinet secretary and currently a Knesset candidate on Labor's list.
The collector offered to sell the inscription to the Israel Museum, but museum curators who examined the fragment cast doubt on its authenticity, though they did not state categorically that the writing was a forgery.
Ilani and Rosenfeld refused yesterday to discuss the Israel Museum's response with Ha'aretz. But officials from the Geology Survey said that results of the battery of examinations that were carried out must be taken as conclusive: It's inconceivable that such extensive testing would fail to reveal a forgery, they said. The inscription is authentic, they insisted, and the finding is an archaeological sensation that could have global repercussions and that effectively vindicates Jewish claims to the Temple Mount.
The inscription lauds repairs carried out by King Jehoash in ways reminiscent of the description in the Second Book of Kings. It includes the king's request that priests collect public money to be used for the repair of the First Temple; and there are references to the purchase of timber and quarried stones for the carrying out of repairs on the Temple.
The inscription contains fragments from 2 Kings 12:15: "And they did not ask an accounting from the men into whose hands they delivered the money to pay out to the workmen; for they dealt honestly."
The researchers believe that the sandstone used for the inscription was brought from southern Jordan, or the Dead Sea region. Materials that covered the inscription over the years date from 200-400 B.C.E., they suggest.
Ilani and Rosenfeld speculate that during this period, the inscription began to be covered up as a buried object. Should this hypothesis be correct, it |
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Lainey
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Posted - January 18 2003 : 02:44:13 AM
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Thank you for starting anew with this thread.
"This claim has been very popular with Palestinians lately and is a very controversial topic. The issue is not so clear cut as it may appear. Basically, some Palestinians are trying to legitimize the Palestinian presence in Israel by claiming the modern Palestinians are the direct descendants of the ancient Canaanites and Philistines. Therefore, (their reasoning goes) they were there first, and have the right to be there, while the Jews don't. These Palestinian archaeologists and historians are basically trying to write the Jews out of history until about the Persian or Hellenistic period, with some as late as the first centuries BCE and CE. And the Palestinians aren't the only ones trying to erase Jewish history, there are many post-modern revisionists who deny "Ancient Israel" even existed in any form at all. Obviously Israeli archaeologists don't agree, as well as many other non-Israeli, non-Jewish archaeologists and ancient historians. This is clear misuse of archaeology and history for political purposes. I've posted here an article which gives a basic summary of the controversy."
Are you saying the Palestinians do not have a legitimate presence in Palestine? Their rights, which do not automatically negate Jewish rights, are of origin & long term continuity.
I was not aware of this recent "controversy" but Palestinian heritage has long been accepted as one that dates to Canaanite/Philistine roots. That's not a recent 'revisionism' of some Palestinian conspiracy. It is also long believed that the Jewish people arrived in Palestine shortly after the Philistines; long before the Persian/Hellenistic periods.
While there may, as the article suggests, be some who are denying Jewish history in the region, to accept Palestinians as a people of antiquity in Palestine does not "erase" or deny Jewish antiquity.
The problem is multi-faceted. The Jewish people, as a whole, were dispersed from the Holy Land nearly two thousand years ago. The Palestinians remained. The western powers forcibly mandated a new state of Israel, at the Palestinians' expense, only in the last century, thus creating the continued "conflict" in the region. At no time were Palestinian rights considered or protected. A succession of regional wars followed, with the state of Israel gaining more land & more control. Jerusalem, according to the original mandate, was to be divided into sections that reflected the Jewish, Christian, & Muslim populations. Jerusalem today is controlled by the secular state of Israel. With such a chain of events it is quite expected that there would be conflict.
To deny the existence of ancient Israel is absurd. And so is the denial of Palestinian existence.
quote:
Some Palestinians claim their presence in the region predates the Jews by more than a millennium. Modern-day Palestinians, according to that school of belief, are not the descendants of people who drifted from the Arabian peninsula in recent centuries, as most historians believe, but are the direct descendants of the Philistines, Aegean Sea people who settled on the coast of Canaan in the 12th century B.C. Palestinian archeologist Dr. Adel Yahya argues that "Palestinians are the descendants of the ancient Canaanites themselves, who were present in the land before the Israelites arrived."
Though there is no physical evidence to back these assertions, they have been popular among Palestinian academics for at least a decade. Mainstream international archeologists flatly reject that belief. Palestinian Islamists also shy away from the theory, which would make them descendants of pagans.
Another group of Palestinian historians asserts that their people are the part of the Jewish nation that did not leave after the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70 and subsequently converted to Islam. Recent DNA r |
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CT•Ranger
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Posted - January 18 2003 : 5:48:31 PM
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No, I am not saying the Palestinians don’t have a legitimate presence in Palestine. What I am saying, is that it is disturbing to see Near Eastern Archaeology abused and misused for political agendas. Some Palestinian and non-Palestinian archaeologists are trying to revise history by literally erasing Israeli/Jewish history with archaeologically based arguments. The Palestinians in control of the Temple Mount absolutely deny that there is any legitimate Israeli claim to the area, and flat out deny that there was ever a Jewish Temple as recorded in the Bible, or any evidence for such. The recent discovery of the Jehoash tablet may change that.
I also believe the issue of modern Palestinian origins is not so clear cut or absolute as some claim. To be honest I was not familiar with the claim that modern Palestinians were directly descended from ancient Canaanites and Phillistines until I started researching some of the current issues in Near Eastern Archaeology. Everything I had read and studied or heard from teachers before was that the Palestinians were most likely descended from Arabs who moved into the area from the Arabian peninsula with the rise of Islam. And if you believe the Y chromosome evidence suggests both groups are descended from Abraham (as many people do) then that rules out Canaanite/Phillistine origins, as the Canaanites were there before Abraham, and the Phillistines were sea peoples of Mediterranean origin. It is a complicted issue, even more complicted by the many theories thown around by “scholars.”
To give an example of some of the extreme views out there, below is a summary of the post-modern revisionist or minimalist view as expressed by Ze’ev Herzog in a “Biblical Archaeology Review” online article titled Deconstructing the Walls of Jericho
“Ha'aretz Magazine, Friday, October 29, 1999
Following 70 years of intensive excavations in the Land of Israel, archaeologists have found out: The patriarchs' acts are legendary stories, we did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, we did not conquer the land. Neither is there any mention of the empire of David and Solomon. Those who take an interest have known these facts for years, but Israel is a stubborn people and doesn't want to hear about it
This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai."
What the view outlined in the quote above, fails to recognize is that lack of archaeological evidence does not equal negative evidence. |
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Posted - January 20 2003 : 04:49:13 AM
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CT, though I may be irritating you with persistence, I'm going to continue as I think it's SO important ... I hope you'll agree. Tell me where I'm wrong (and keep those archaelogical discoveries coming!).
"No, I am not saying the Palestinians don’t have a legitimate presence in Palestine. What I am saying, is that it is disturbing to see Near Eastern Archaeology abused and misused for political agendas. Some Palestinian and non-Palestinian archaeologists are trying to revise history by literally erasing Israeli/Jewish history with archaeologically based arguments. The Palestinians in control of the Temple Mount absolutely deny that there is any legitimate Israeli claim to the area, and flat out deny that there was ever a Jewish Temple as recorded in the Bible, or any evidence for such. The recent discovery of the Jehoash tablet may change that."
I agree with you, it is disturbing. The Temple Mount, in particular, will continue to be a contested issue as it's become a rallying focus or pawn of, not the larger land issue, but of deeper conflicts; religion vs colonialism. Holy site to Jews (& Christians - the prophesied Messianic era Second Temple), Islam's mosques on site were intended to trample & offend Jewish sensitivites. Consequently, as Islam's third holiest site, Sharon's post-election victory march upon the Mount was intended to trample & offend Muslim Palestinians' sensitivities. It was also a strong, aggressive message to Palestinians ... & it was heard.
Likewise, it is disturbing to see attempts made to erase Palestinian history (such as recent migration?) & Palestinian humanity (such as we witness today - vilification of Palestinians, destruction of Palestinian villages & infrastructures including census records).
The Jehoash tablet is incredible. As an archaeology student/buff, you must be ecstatic.
"I also believe the issue of modern Palestinian origins is not so clear cut or absolute as some claim. To be honest I was not familiar with the claim that modern Palestinians were directly descended from ancient Canaanites and Phillistines until I started researching some of the current issues in Near Eastern Archaeology. Everything I had read and studied or heard from teachers before was that the Palestinians were most likely descended from Arabs who moved into the area from the Arabian peninsula with the rise of Islam. And if you believe the Y chromosome evidence suggests both groups are descended from Abraham (as many people do) then that rules out Canaanite/Phillistine origins, as the Canaanites were there before Abraham, and the Phillistines were sea peoples of Mediterranean origin. It is a complicted issue, even more complicted by the many theories thown around by “scholars.” "
The theory of origin; it is not a pure Canaanite/Philistine heritage. There was an ongoing absorption of peoples as the region was in perpetual evolution for centuries. Assaults, conquests, conflicts, trade, slavery, etc. ... Beduins ... the tribes of Arabia, in antiquity, not post-Islam, are part of the make-up.
It is complicated, as is always the pursuit of historical origins, ethnic development, language evolution. The bombardment of misrepresentations, revisions, & falsities doesn't help. The Y chromosome doesn't rule out Palestinian claims of origin as it links Arabs & Hebrews to a paternal grandfather; it doesn't void Canaanite or Philistine bloodlines. Hebrews & Arabs are both descendants, or seed of Abraham. Both are semitic people. (Anti-semitic Arabs??? Does the emperor wear a robe?) Hebrews, the 12 tribes of Israel, descend from Abraham & his wife Sara; Arabs, the 12 tribes of Arabia, descend from Abraham & Sara's handmaid, the Egyptian Agar. They are related.
Palestine - It's time to look at facts rather than propaganda, and ask, 'On whose authority?.'
"Albert Einstein - "'I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace th |
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Posted - January 21 2003 : 12:04:43 AM
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Here's another article on the subject:
ARCHAEOLOGY HAS BECOME 'A SECOND RELIGION'
Two archaeologists, an Israeli and a Palestinian, disagreed about who first got to Israel - but agreed that it didn't matter. The meeting, on Tuesday, 18 May 1999, followed a two day seminar about Archaeology and Nationalism held at Beit Jala in March.
The 'myth' that has kept people together Dr Roni Reich, senior lecturer in archaeology at Haifa University, said that a nation was a subjective entity - a people who were aware of their identity and had historical continuity. As a non-religious Jew he sees the Bible as myth, which includes "descriptive reality", all heavily edited. Although archaeology has not verified the exodus from Egypt, he said, "This myth has kept a people together, with a self-awareness, for three millennia". Reich said that, aside from the fact that Jews have used the same script for 2,000 years and the same language for 3,000 years, the discovery of ritual baths (mikva'ot) wherever Jews have lived, including Israel, shows cultural continuity. He has studied these water installations for the past 30 years, he said, and has now recorded more that 500 mikva'ot found in Israel. They are only found in Jewish houses, he said, but not in pagan, Christian or Muslim houses. The Jewish people had been forced to leave Israel twice, Reich said, and had returned twice, this time after an exile of 1900 years. The place did not remain empty, he said. "Others came. The Palestinians have been here for at least hundreds of years."
'No choice but to coexist'
Dr Adel Yahye, an archaeologist who is director of the Palestinian Association for Cultural Exchange (PACE) in Ramallah, said that what matters is that two peoples have a claim to the land and that neither people can eliminate the other. "We have no choice but to find ways to coexist," he said. Yahye said that archaeology has always been too politicized in the country, starting with biblical archaeology, with too much being read into finds. Archaeology has become very divisive, like "a second religion".
He said that, linguistically, there is a relationship between the words "Philistine" and "Palestinian", which he believes is significant. Yahye said he was "struck by illiterate Palestinian refugees who identify themselves with Iron Age Philistines. Many Palestinians relate their right to the land to the fact that they see themselves as Philistines or Canaanites, and say they were here before the Jews - before even God." He said the traditional view that the Philistines were foreign invaders of Mycenaean origin was used to deny the Philistines and the Palestinians their claim to the land. He did not see a lack of continuity in pottery or sculpture which would support the view of Philistines as invaders.
Question: The first time Arabs used the term "Palestinian" was in 1921. How did Philistines become Palestinians?
Yahye: The name "Philistine" is ancient. Palestinians believe they are Philistines and Canaanites.
Reich: Adel hasn't proved a connection between Philistines and Palestinians. We think Philistines intermingled with tribes of Judea. Names change. That's why I use the mikveh rather than language.
Question: Is there any collaboration between Israeli and Palestinian archaeologists in Palestinian Authority areas?
Reich: There isn't even collaboration between Israelis.
Yahye: There will have to be in the future.
Reich: What is collaboration? Palestinians come on visits. If they don't like my interpretations they can publish their own. But they need permits to dig and permits are only given to qualified, experienced archaeologists. Israelis also need to be backed by an organiation because usually the excavation outlives the excavator.
Yahye: We need each other to legitimize interpretations of our work. Otherwise it will all be suspect. My professors in the United States thought my work was politically suspect. One refused to sig |
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Posted - January 21 2003 : 12:17:38 AM
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"The theory of origin; it is not a pure Canaanite Philistine heritage. There was an ongoing absorption of peoples as the region was in perpetual evolution for centuries. Assaults, conquests, conflicts, trade, slavery, etc. ... Beduins ... the tribes of Arabia, in antiquity, not post-Islam, are part of the make-up.
It is complicated, as is always the pursuit of historical origins, ethnic development, language evolution. The bombardment of misrepresentations, revisions, & falsities doesn't help. The Y chromosome doesn't rule out Palestinian claims of origin as it links Arabs & Hebrews to a paternal grandfather; it doesn't void Canaanite or Philistine bloodlines. Hebrews & Arabs are both descendants, or seed of Abraham. Both are semitic people. (Anti-semitic Arabs??? Does the emperor wear a robe?) Hebrews, the 12 tribes of Israel, descend from Abraham & his wife Sara; Arabs, the 12 tribes of Arabia, descend from Abraham & Sara's handmaid, the Egyptian Agar. They are related."
I agree. I believe there was definately some mixing in the population. What I was originally trying to say, was that I don't believe modern Palestinians are descended purely from the ancient Canaanites and Phillistines. But I do beleive post-Islam Arabs who came to the area in the 7th century CE and assimilated with the population are part of the make-up of modern Palestinians, but not the only part. |
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Posted - January 21 2003 : 02:00:33 AM
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Covered a lot of fair 'territory' in three days ...
As one who is interested in near east/middle eastern archaeology, do you have news regarding Mt. Ararat? (Armenian homeland, present day Turkey ... a soon to be headliner nation.) |
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Political Misuse of "Biblical" Archaeology
