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shadawick
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
August 19 2009
Status: offline
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 Posted - May 10 2010 : 9:27:41 PM
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I found this posted in another website forum and it got me to thinking. If it is accurate on all assumptions it is amazing to realize how deep a hole the illegal immagration issue is digging.
I personally feel we have to secure the borders first, then look to a commn sense and practical approach to revise the immigration laws. I further wonder if there were anmisty given and even with a fine collected, if you have a influx of millions of newly legalized immigrants into the social security it would have to upset and destabilize the trust fund causing a quicker demise then currently estimated. Now here is the food for thought.
Sorry about the punctuation.
You have two families: "Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal"
Both families have two parents, two children, and live in California ..
Joe Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and
makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.
Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security
Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".
Ready? Now pay attention...
Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or
$52,000.00 Per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal
tax; Joe Legal now has $31,231.00.
Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or
$31,200.00 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now
has $31,200.00.
Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for
His family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal
now Has $24,031.00.
Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state
and local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has
$31,200.00.
Joe Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps
or Welfare. Joe Legal pays $500..00 per month for food, or $6,000.00
per Year. Joe Legal now has $18,031.00..
Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps
And welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.
Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year.
Joe Legal now has $9,631.00.
Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy. Jose
Illegal pays out that $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year.
Jose Illegal Still has $ 31,200.00.
Joe Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for insurance.
Joe Legal Now has $7,231.00.
Jose Illegal says, "We don't need no stinkin' insurance!" and still has
$31,200.00.
Joe Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, Etc.
Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities,
Gasoline, and what he sends out of the country every month.
Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after Work.
Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.
Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school.
Joe Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children
get A government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after
School ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.
Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services,
But Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.
Do you get it, now?
If you vote for or support any politician that supports illegal
Aliens...
You are part of the problem!
It's way PAST time to take a stand for America and Americans!
What are you waiting for? Pass it on..
I am interested in hearing your opinion.
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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003
Status: offline
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 Posted - May 10 2010 : 9:33:15 PM
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I agree that immigration is a problem. We have too many employers that are addicted to cheap labor that they can pay under the table. If the jobs dried up so would the flow of people. |
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BookwormMG
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
August 12 2009
Status: offline
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Posted - May 11 2010 : 9:25:02 PM
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I think that a number of assumptions in that article are wrong. This article from the Wall Street Journal is helpful on several points. It was written in 2007, but I don't think too much has changed since then.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010116
First, illegal immigrants are not eligible for any form of federal welfare benefits except for emergency health care. No doubt it's possible for those with forged documents to game the system, but in general illegal immigrants want to lie low and not draw attention to themselves by asking for things that will entail a review of their papers.
Second, illegal immigrants do pay taxes. At a minimum they buy consumer goods and pay the applicable state sales tax on those goods. Those who rent living space -- and that must be the vast majority of them -- indirectly contribute to the payment of property taxes, since their landlord will set the rent high enough to cover those taxes. And those workers who submit forged documents, including fake Social Security numbers, in order to be put on a payroll (the thousands who work in meat-packing plants, for example) will then pay whatever taxes a legal worker pays through payroll deductions. One of those taxes is Social Security, and here's the catch -- they pay in, but since they're using phony IDs they generally don't draw out, so they actually benefit the Social Security trust fund. See:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/petition.asp
Even if those here now become legal, they would still be good for the system because, as the WSJ article points out, most immigrants are young and healthy and have many productive years of work ahead of them before they would draw benefits.
I'm also wondering if $15 per hour isn't more than an under-the-table worker would actually be paid? That's about twice the minimum wage, and at least in the current job market I don't think an employer would have to go that high to find workers.
Finally, criticism of proposals for immigration reform often assume that the only alternative to deportation is "amnesty," which to my mind implies complete forgiveness -- "oh never mind, whatever, you can stay." How about, instead, "earned legalization" -- something along the lines of requiring a person who is here illegally but wishes to stay to pay a fine, learn English, prove that he or she has secured gainful employment, and go to the back of the line so that he or she doesn't gain an advantage over those who have legally sought citizenship. In addition, I don't think we can assume that everyone who came here illegally wants to stay here. For those who just want to work for a number of years and send money home, we need a guest worker program so that they can travel back and forth legally, without risking their lives and paying thousands of dollars to people who exploit them. And as Susquesus suggested, focusing on the prosecution of employers who prefer to hire illegal immigrants because they will work for low pay (and won't file worker's comp claims, call OSHA to report safety violations, etc.) would be the most effective way to address the problems that linger after these reforms are put into place.
shadawick, thanks for raising this issue. It's a difficult one that isn't going to go away. |
"Glory, glory, hallelujah, welcome to the future!" -- Brad Paisley |
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shadawick
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
August 19 2009
Status: offline
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Posted - May 11 2010 : 10:19:18 PM
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Hi Mary,
I know one thing for sure, this issue is an 800lb. Gorilla in the room that people seem to acknowledge is there but no one wants the unpleasant task of dealing with it. The sense of fair play in me would suggest that those foreign nationals that want to immigrate to America and abide with the current applicable laws should be given priority. Now, I am not so naive so as to think that it would be either easy or cheap to try and round up an estimated 12 to 20 million people and deport them. I will be the first to say this issue has been put on the back burner by both parties for many years and for a variety of different reasons or ulterior motive. I truthfully believe for national security we must secure the border and believe the only viable option is the military. I also believe the Hispanic people have really hurt themselves and their cause by the riots and protest that have gotten out of hand including physical injury and property damage. I really wish the Hispanic community were more interested into be assimilated into the American melting pot instead of remaining more clustered. I was a student in the 60's and early 70's and our history, social studies and related stressed that America was a melting pot of nationalities and cultures. In effect we were really a nation whose people could be compared to an "Alloy." Often and alloy is stronger, more valuable or possess strengths and abilities far in excess of its intrinsic components. But a people must want to become part of the new community. I have thought about the differences from the immigrants from Europe,Asia, Africa and the Middle East and the influx of Mexicans, Central and South Americans. I think the basic difference is that with the early immigrants the Europeans and such came to America with a "one way ticket." That is they were coming to America to live permanently and start over into a new life. I think that with the Hispanics, it is more likely a temporary economic need. I wonder how many truly want to become American citizens and become a part of America and embrace it's culture. I really believe that better justice and common sense would suggest a strong border security, an enhanced and practical guest worker program and last, a new pathway to earned citizenship based upon the criteria that you suggest with a first in first out for permanent visas. anyway, this is something that has to be dealt with in a very positive and practical manner and soon, it has the potential to really divide the country on race. |
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Dark Woods
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - May 20 2010 : 10:17:32 PM
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I propose using a different terminology for those who are not here legally. "Unregulated Immigrants"
Liberals are in favor of regulation for almost every aspect of life. How could they possibly oppose "regulation" of immigration. (Or if liberals do oppose it, their inconsistency would be vivid.)
"Unegulated" sounds less harsh than "Illegal" so I throw a bone to the politically correct crowd. |
We become what we think about. |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - May 21 2010 : 05:36:31 AM
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| Illegal is illegal, no matter what you call it. PC NOT spoken here. |
Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - May 21 2010 : 5:09:30 PM
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quote:
Dark Woods said: I propose using a different terminology for those who are not here legally. "Unregulated Immigrants"
I understand what you are saying Dark Woods, but to those of the Marxist bent, they consider such things beyond humor. My retort to the Marxi-Speak euphemism, 'Undocumented Workers', is that to give an Illegal Alien such a polite title is the same as calling a drug dealer an 'Unlicensed Pharmacist'. In other words, Seamus is right, there is no room for PC speak anymore; because the Left has elected the enemy into office, and our nation is at stake.
Also, on the subject of this thread, I see that the tired, old and false argument of the costs versus 'benefits' of illegal aliens has reared its ugly and ill-informed head here as well. I have yet to see a real cost/benefits analysis of these criminals, and any such 'strike' by these people has always resorted in nothing more than some friendly coverage from the pink-press media.
I can point out that these people do cost us in schools and public assistance (which the majority is paid from state/local coffers, with the feds only kicking-in roughly 24% for their mandate) for these illegal aliens and their 'anchor babies', as well as the well-documented cost to law enforcement, the courts and corrections for the secondary criminal activity (activity which could have been avoided, had they been stopped from crossing the border) engaged in by a good part of these 'honest' people.
As a response to the cry, "You can't just deport them all", I say "Yes we can!" Such an argument is at best a cop-out, and most likely proof of intellectual dishonesty. I have heard that B.S. for over 20 years, and if they started deporting them back then (and sealing-up the border), the problem would have already been solved. The fact is that you can deport them all, but not at the same time; you just keep grabbing them as you find them, and throw them back over to Mexico, and sooner or later the rest will leave or go so deep as to not bother the rest of us. In summary, a large number of criminals do not make enforcement of the law difficult for cops like me... that is the job of lawyers and judges 
YMH&OS,
The Sarge
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - May 22 2010 : 09:41:05 AM
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| I am dumbfounded that the word "illegal" - as in BREAKING EXISTING LAW - is a matter of contention. |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 14 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - May 22 2010 : 4:59:57 PM
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| Rich, - if they were Republicans, BO & Co. would have already declared war on Mexico & S. American in general. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - May 23 2010 : 08:17:27 AM
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????
All I know is that it is an honor to be a citizen of this Country. Being lucky enough to be born on its soil or following the legal protocol to become a citizen are the ways to go.
Ranting and raving and flying flags of other Nations is not. |
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winglo
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 13 2007
Status: offline
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Posted - May 23 2010 : 5:54:57 PM
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| I am not one who believes that we should just legalize those who are already in the US, nor do I believe that we should give up trying to stop the flow of illegal immigrants. I also believe that Arizona is justified in checking i.d.'s of those caught breaking the law. However, illegals entering the US is a problem that cannot be solved. As long as life is better here than it is in the country of origin, they WILL come--any way they can. So, Rich, I agree with you. I thank God I was born here. |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - May 25 2010 : 09:20:37 AM
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Want to see something really disgusting? This issue of illegal aliens and all of the benefits they receive from our country (and my money!) makes me very, very angry... almost as angry as I am about the countless thousands of gallons of oil that is spilling into the Gulf of Mexico at this very moment. So, besides being a political and economic disaster, this is also becoming an environmental disaster. The really disgusting thing is that it could be stopped! But I don't/won't see this administration doing anything about it.
Check this out: Illegal Super Highways |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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shadawick
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
August 19 2009
Status: offline
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Posted - May 25 2010 : 12:50:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wilderness Woman
Want to see something really disgusting? This issue of illegal aliens and all of the benefits they receive from our country (and my money!) makes me very, very angry... almost as angry as I am about the countless thousands of gallons of oil that is spilling into the Gulf of Mexico at this very moment. So, besides being a political and economic disaster, this is also becoming an environmental disaster. The really disgusting thing is that it could be stopped! But I don't/won't see this administration doing anything about it.
Check this out: Illegal Super Highways
WOW! That's the first time I've seen pictures like those. No wonder Arizona is overwhelmed, it truly is an invasion. I have heard from different sources that 16 or 17 more states are considering a version of the Arizona law of their own. Something has to be done. |
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Joe Legal Vs. Jose Illegal.
