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susank2
Colonial Settler
USA
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August 25 2007
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 Posted - October 30 2007 : 3:14:05 PM
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Maybe I'm just not getting it....but I've been reading On the Rez about Pine Ridge Reservation and have seen a couple of movies that show parts of the reservation and it just seems like such a dump. Plus I've read on the Internet that the poverty, alcohol, suicide, and unwed mother rates on reservations are much higher than the national average. Why?
Is it because they are in very isolated places in the country and there is no where to get a job? Is it because they don't own the land their houses are on and therefore can't make a profit by selling them? Is it because so many of them drop out of high school?
I know that in every urban area there are the same issues, mostly with minorities. But they're not living on a reservation where a tribal government is suppose to be looking out for your welfare.
I haven't been able to find an answer to my question on the Internet and wanted to post here to get your opinions. I must admit that I know next to nothing about the subject so please forgive me if I seem stupid about it all.
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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December 18 2004
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Posted - October 30 2007 : 4:14:49 PM
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This is something I would have to look further into before posting an opinion. I do recall reading, although I can't remember what publication, that the casinos are owned by people who aren't in any way related to the tribe that has allowed the building on their land. The casino is suppose to pay out a certain amount of money but unfortunately it was rigged and they haven't seen a dime. So all this time people are getting rich, paying the tribes next to nothing to work for them and the tribal goveronment has tried repeatedly to get the $$$ owed them but have failed.
How much truth is in it? Dunno. Never looked further into it although now that you brought the point up, Susan, I am interested in finding out why. Thanks! |
I live in my own little world - but that's okay, they know me here! |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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March 14 2005
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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November 27 2002
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Posted - October 30 2007 : 5:30:37 PM
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Yes, lack of education is certainly one of the problems, MG. However, I think it is a result, rather than a cause. I think the problems go way back to when the reservations were first created -- back in the 1800s. The Indians were placed there and were forced to become dependent on our Federal government for their livelihood. And we all know how horrible it was and has been.
On most reservations, there is little or no industry... nothing for them to do to earn a living, except perhaps to have a very tiny farm, or to weave a few rugs, or to make some pottery. It's pretty difficult, if not impossible, to earn a decent living doing any of those things. If you farm, you must do it on a very large scale in order to make money, and even then it is difficult. Just ask any farmer.
Light, I'm not sure what you mean about the casinos. Which tribe or reservation are you referring to? The Oneida Nation here in New York State was, I believe, the first in the country to build and open their own casino, Turning Stone. It is owned and operated by the Oneida Nation and it is extremely successful. Oneida in New York
And now, MG, here is where the education comes in. An Oneida man by the name of Ray Halbritter managed to go to Harvard and became a very talented and shrewd businessman. In 1993, he negotiated with then Governor Mario Cuomo to create a gaming compact with the state of New York. The nation built the casino. Immediately, it was a huge success. Halbritter is the Nation Representative and is the CEO of Oneida Enterprises, which now also includes a luxury hotel, a chain of gas stations and a textile industry. All of this in 14 years.
Unfortunately, there is also controversy within the tribe regarding this whole thing. Halbritter has been criticized for embracing gambling, and for some other things he has been doing within the tribe. But the fact remains that he has made the Oneida Nation a very wealthy one and has set an example, be it a good one of a bad one. Whether you agree with what they are doing or not, you have to admit that it has made a world of difference for this tribe.
The Seneca Nation in Western New York has just finished building their own casino. |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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susank2
Colonial Settler
USA
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August 25 2007
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Posted - October 30 2007 : 5:48:31 PM
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The book that I'm reading does talk about the casino's and says that in order for them to be successful they need to be in areas that are close to cities, or where people can access them easily. That's not the case with Pine Ridge and many other reservations that are in the middle of nowhere. It's true that reservations that have successful casino's are very wealthy (according to this book) but not all reservations are ideal locations for casinos.
WW, you talk about how there is no industry on most reservations and I believe that's true, but why don't they find an industry? I don't know if they're content to be poor, or resigned to it. Why don't they do something to help themselves? |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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March 14 2005
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Posted - October 30 2007 : 6:17:30 PM
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| No question about business & educational opportunity being in short supply on reservations. To make use of what are available they will have to leave the reservation. Other people have done it, - and they can too. Back in Maine, (and other rural states) especially in the northern part of the state, young folks have to leave to truly get ahead - and they do. ... Studies have been done across all lines on race, gender etc. - with no exception what holds people back more than anything today, - is a poor, or worse no education. Blacks with a good education do not suffer from the high unemployment that the black community is painted as having. Same for women, Asians etc. - the better their education, the better the situation they're in, and the lower their unemployment. Building casinos is fine, to a point - but not the solution to the problem, any more than blacks thinking professional sports their ticket out. "Somehow" all young people MUST be taught that there is no "easy way out". A good education is the only hope for 99% of them. Now education can/maybe should be a good trade school, - it doesn't have to be a college program. Anything that will "make them worth something" to a potential employer is their way out. This will most likely mean moving - as did may others before them. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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November 27 2002
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Posted - October 30 2007 : 7:43:37 PM
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MG, I agree with you that to really get themselves out of this situation, young people need to leave the reservation... at least temporarily. Then, after they get their educations, they have the choice of either staying away and joining the workforce, or going back and trying to do something to improve the lot of others who are still on the reservation. That's what Halbritter did. No, casinos are not the best answer or the only answer. They are just an example of what can be accomplished.
Susan, I understand what you are saying: "Why don't they do something to help themselves?" Why don't people in the ghettos in the big cities do something to help themselves, other than to become drug dealers? Why don't the poor blacks in the south do something to help themselves, other than to rely on welfare? Why don't the homeless drunks who sleep on the streets do something to help themselves?
I think it is habit. It is what they have always known, and it is not easy to change... to pull oneself up by the bootstraps and have the determination to leave and make a different sort of life. It is just easier to continue to wallow in what you have known all your life. |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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March 14 2005
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Posted - October 30 2007 : 8:38:19 PM
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| Good point WW, - leaving and bringing back "something" and passing it on will accomplish more than anything Washington can dream up. The real solution to high crime etc. lies within the communities that are experiencing it. That doesn't mean help and police protection aren't necessary, - they are. However, neighborhood patrols (crime watch as it's commonly known) by the local men have worked in many areas. They're not intended to be vigilantes or enforce any laws, they simply observe. If they observe any "activity" that's let's say questionable, they notify the authorities. Neighborhoods CAN be taken back, - if good folks are willing to do it. For one thing, they're usually a lot smarter than the hoods. ;) |
you can keep "The Change" |
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Kyfrontiersman
Colonial Militia
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November 18 2004
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Posted - October 30 2007 : 11:13:41 PM
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It's not only lack of education. The Native Americans are the most discriminated people in this Country. The Shawnee were driven out of Ohio after how many treaties were signed by this government, because the Whites wanted their land. Even worse, look at the Trail of Tears, Andrew Jackson's death sentence on the Cherokee when he wanted their lands. That is why Crockett parted ways with Jackson. Yea, Crockett tried to rerun for office in order to fight Jackson, but he lost, and headed for Texas. I'm dear friends with many of the Piqua Sept of the Shawnee Nation, and I'm disgusted at the ways many are treated to this day. One of their Chiefs was an engineer for NASA, another has a genius IQ, and others have bettered themselves, but when you still see this Government going on to the Reservations, and offering to build them new houses if they will allow our Government to dump toxic waste in their backyard, and the Indians say, "YES!"??? I don't know about you, but I call that blood guilt on our government's head!!!!
Mike |
http://rumpingproductions.org/
"Kentucke, situated on the fertile banks of the great Ohio, rising
from obscurity to shine with splendor, equal to any other of the
stars of the American hemisphere." ...... John Filson |
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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December 18 2004
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Posted - October 31 2007 : 11:06:51 AM
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Wow. A little info goes a long way with this topic. All of these discussions have been very intersting to keep up with.
As far as the casino, it wasn't in NY, I do recall it was someplace out west, which one or which publication, again...I don't remember - it's been so long since I saw the article. If I come across it again, WW I'll be sure to post it for ya' to take a gander at.
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I live in my own little world - but that's okay, they know me here! |
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Kyfrontiersman
Colonial Militia
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 18 2004
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Posted - October 31 2007 : 1:25:39 PM
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| I should have said too that, YES, the Indians also need educated as well, but our government sure won't do it, not as long as they can keep on using them the way they do. And as far as the Casino, right away the Mob came in to help the Indians run it, now it's the Mob making all the money. Sorry for my long tantrum, i usually don't do that, really. |
http://rumpingproductions.org/
"Kentucke, situated on the fertile banks of the great Ohio, rising
from obscurity to shine with splendor, equal to any other of the
stars of the American hemisphere." ...... John Filson |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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November 27 2002
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Posted - October 31 2007 : 1:43:28 PM
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That was long??? 
I hear you loud and clear, Mike. And I agree with all you say about the way our government has handled the Indians over the past 2 centuries. Shameful doesn't even cover it.
Where is this casino that the mob is now running? |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Dark Woods
Colonial Settler
USA
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May 18 2002
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Posted - October 31 2007 : 5:46:51 PM
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I believe that there are many factors that come into play on this issue.
One aspect of the persistent poverty problem goes back to the beginnings of many reservations. When the reservation boundaries were more or less finalized, there was a tendency to put the Indians on marginal or poor agricultural land (the best farmland would be kept for white settlers of course). Then the Indians were expected to learn european/white farming techniques. Some tribal members prospered, but in many cases, there was not enough good farming/ranching land for all to be successful. Thus many formerly independent families were forced into a cycle of dependency. The traditional ways were forbidden, the white ways weren't working for them, so a pattern of poverty emerged.
As new opportunities arise, the cycle can be broken. It is not easy--especially with global free trade putting the Indians into competion with low-wage factories around the world.
I do think that through education and modern IT resources, information technology can be done on a reservation. The Internet and related technology may well be valuable in the climb of Indian families out of poverty. |
We become what we think about. |
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Kyfrontiersman
Colonial Militia
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November 18 2004
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susank2
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
August 25 2007
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Posted - October 31 2007 : 6:07:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyfrontiersman
I should have said too that, YES, the Indians also need educated as well, but our government sure won't do it, not as long as they can keep on using them the way they do. And as far as the Casino, right away the Mob came in to help the Indians run it, now it's the Mob making all the money. Sorry for my long tantrum, i usually don't do that, really.
There are schools on the reservations. Apparently many kids drop out before graduation and those who do graduate don't tend to go on to college. But they do have the OPPORTUNITY to get an education. They just choose not to do so. Their lives seem to revolve around drugs, alcohol and gangs.
It makes me think that on some level they want to be in poverty so they can collect welfare and make "the white man" pay for them to live. A payback of sorts for what happened to them in the past. |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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March 14 2005
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Posted - October 31 2007 : 6:28:48 PM
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| No question about the Indians having a rough time of it, they certainly did. At some point they have to take the bull by the horns and improve themselves. Is something like that easy? No, but others have struggled and made a better life, and they can to. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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May 13 2002
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Posted - November 03 2007 : 10:19:42 AM
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All of the above ... AND ... Indian people were robbed of their culture and religion by well-meaning reformists as well as through military conquest. Take the Lakota ... a generation of warrior people were suddenly reduced to ... nothing, in effect. A complete destruction of their self-esteem led to rampant alcoholism and suicide. A new generation was born into this. Abject poverty, not only of wealth, but of all things. A dismal existence.
It is getting better, but slowly. |
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lonewolf
Colonial Settler
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February 12 2004
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Posted - December 11 2007 : 12:08:21 AM
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Hi guys,
I am not too familiar with members of the Western tribes, but I do know that they live on reservations that are huge, and it is so far to get to work that they simply don't have the money for decent cars to get to work if there were jobs, which there aren't. Ad it would take hours to get to work, if they had jobs.
Also, reservations are really not part of the United States, but separate entities unto themselves and governed by the reservation Indians themselves, so there are many legal ramifications involved here that stifle outside companies from moving onto reservations and hiring Indians. Plus, there is the old prejudice thing! It's still a factor. Just one more factor in the sad equation.
I have driven across the Rosedub Reservation and a few others, and they are really sparsely populated and there is simply nowhere to work. Even at the Custer Battlefield which is on an Indian reservation, it is in the middle of nowhere with nowhere to find a job! A few are lucky enough to have jobs entertaining tourists or working with the park services, or selling tourists handmade jewelry and other artifacts. There is just little money to be had!
As far as the Oneida reservation is concerned, there are some ugly things going on with a person who has set himself up as some sort of dictator and self-appointed phony chief, and he has illegally cancelled the traditional "Council of Women" who normally make all important decisions among the Iroquois Six Nations. Any woman who questions why he is violating tribal law that goes back thousands of years, will have her house "condemned" by this butthole, and it will be bulldozed by this dictator's "goon squad police"! They are not above shooting up someone's house with the Indian women still inside! They were also one of the last to open a casino. Most of the profits from the casino are going into this little dictator's pockets.
By law, New York State Police cannot go on the reservation to do anything about crime committed on the reservation unless invited to do so, and this rotten Oneida "dictator" is certainly not going to invite them onto this small Oneida reservation to figure out what is really going on there! They may well arrest the "dictator"!
Too many casinos have gone into cahoots with shady underworld figures, who siphon off most of the profits, leaving Indians with little to share! This has happened at many Indian casinos. Some casinos have become "double-edged swords" that give Indians very little in the way of money, but cut Indians to the bone with their corruption!
The Peqout casino in New England was one of the first to open, and they are making lots of money, and sharing it fairly, probably the only Indian people to do so!
Where all "big money" is concerned, corruption follows in it's footsteps like night follows day! Indians aren't immune to allowing themselves to fall into corruption. They are human like everyone else! Sadly, most do not practise their old ways of "honor" and "sharing with all"!
Western Indians also look upon Eastern Indians with a bit of disdain, since most of us are now mixed-bloods, the ones who are left after the three to four-hundred year fight for survival!
The "Old West" only lasted for roughly forty years after the Civil War (1865-1905) and some of the western Indians never fought white encroachment at all, but they look down their noses at Eastern Indians who did fight the European invaders! They could stand a bit of history lessons, since most are completely ignorant of what the Eastern Indians were subjected to, before the U.S. Army got to them much later!
Also, most Eastern Indians go to work like everyone else, and hold down good paying jobs, another sticking point with our Western brothers and sisters! I retired from mechanical engineering.
Then there is the stupid fight over "blood quantum" and "tribal cards", some |
Ken Lonewolf |
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lonewolf
Colonial Settler
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February 12 2004
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Posted - December 11 2007 : 12:49:48 AM
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I forgot one little tidbit of information that our government in Washignton, D.C. would rather not have Americans know. When the last census allowed Americans to put down more than one ethnic group that they share, roughly fifty-million Indians, full and mixed-bloods, showed up on the census! The government only cares to "recognize" three and one-half million of us that they "approve"!
The government bureaucrats were shocked at the numbers of Indians that showed up on the last census, so it just wasn't mentioned! And that doesn't include the millions of us in Mexico and Canada, all part of North America! We didn't draw the border lines! It's all one continent, and there are more of us now, than there were two-hundred and fifty years ago! Most Mexicans are Mashica Indians (Aztecs) who have no Spanish blood in them at all!
I can see our government's reaction to latest census: "Oh my god, those Indians aren't the "Vanishing Race" at all"! "They are still among us"! "Everywhere"! |
Ken Lonewolf |
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Why are Indians so poor today?
