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RedFraggle
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October 13 2006
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 Posted - February 08 2007 : 1:53:16 PM
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I've been doing a teensy bit of reading on British vs. provincial troops during the F&I War, and I have a few questions, if anyone is willing to indulge me. Before I ask, though, let me say that I'm a total ignoramus when it comes to this topic, so my questions might be a bit silly!
1. Troop Discipline
Judging from what I've been reading, the British regulars used very harsh punishments, amounting sometimes to hundreds of lashes among the rank and file men. What I'm curious about is: one book stated that the British officers "were not subject to corporal punishment." But what if an officer, say a captain or a major, was charged with insubordination or caught brawling in the streets or something? How would he be disciplined?
2. Women
One book suggested that the only women present in army camps were disreputable sorts, like laudresses and prostitutes. Would officers' wives or daughters ever travel with a regiment as (I think) they sometimes did in the case of navy men?
3. Uniforms
How accurate are the redcoat uniforms as depicted in LOTM? (Yes, I realize this is a silly question!) Didn't some regiments differ in the type and colors of dress required, etc.? If the uniforms in the movie are fairly accurate, how is rank maintained by appearance? (I.e., how do you tell a colonel from a major or a captain just by looking at him?) Just curious, since there seem to be a lot of variations in uniform in the movie. Some guys have red waistcoats, others have blue; some have white trim on their coats, some have yellow; and some have yellow cords on their shoulders while others don't. The books I've been reading don't really say anything about dress.
I'd appreciate any answers to my (admittedly novice!) questions. Thanks! 
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - February 08 2007 : 4:32:06 PM
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I can't address points 1 and 3, but I can address point 2.
Could you tell me which book that was, please? I am really curious.
First of all, why on earth would anyone suggest that a laundress was a disreputable sort??? Just what, exactly, did they think that laundresses did, other than launder clothing? Hummmph.
The idea that the only women who were campfollowers, or who were present in military camps, were prostitutes is quite simply a false one. I actually wrote about this just recently in another thread, in response to something that Fitz had said when he was trying to get me going. (He did!) As a matter of fact, prostitution was often discouraged by the commanding officer and prostitutes were told to leave. Not always, of course, and there were plenty of them around.
However, women who followed the armies were quite often following their menfolk, for whatever reason. Perhaps they had no place to stay while their husbands or sons were on military duty, or perhaps they had to lease out the farm because they couldn't handle it on their own... there could have been many reasons. Yes, officers' wives and families did follow, or at least travel to join them in camp later on. During the Revolutionary War, Martha Washington often travelled to join General Washington in his headquarters once the army was settled in for the winter. She was at Valley Forge.
Women in camp were often employed to do work and received rations, blankets and half-pay. Besides being hired as laundresses, they were seamstresses who did mending and sewing, cooks for officers, and nurses in the hospital tents. Children were sometimes put to work doing chores, such as gathering firewood or milking a cow.
There were also sutlers (period merchants) who followed the armies. They served a function of providing goods to the soldiers who had money to pay for them.
How I wish we could, once and for all, dispel this myth. |
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - February 08 2007 : 6:34:16 PM
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Got you going!!! Got you going!!!!
But I do seem to remember that Gentleman Johnny Burgoyne travelled with mistress. Perhaps others? |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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RedFraggle
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Posted - February 09 2007 : 07:42:20 AM
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Thanks, WW! I had a feeling that the "prostitutes only" idea was not quite correct.
As for the books I've been reading, here they are:
Fred Anderson's A People's Army: Massachusetts Soldiers and Society in the Seven Years' War. (Not the one with the prostitute comments.) I find it fascinating, but very statistical in parts. Anderson divides up the Massachusetts troops in just about every way imaginable, by occupation, age group, ethnicity, number of terms served...the list goes on and on. It's interesting to read the personal stories of some of the men who fought in the F&I War, too.
Stephen Brumwell, Redcoats: The British Soldier and War in the Americas, 1755-1763 is the book with the "disreputable" laundress comment. Just this morning I did find a section later in the book that clears things up a bit, though. Brumwell does mention wives after all, along with a rather funny story about how one officer was ordered to divorce his wife because she was an incompetent laundress (!). He refused to do it, and spent three months in jail for "disparag[ing] the garrison's commander."  |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - February 09 2007 : 08:25:11 AM
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My goodness. It surprises me that a statement of that sort would have come from Mr. Brumwell. Perhaps he found some written notation somewhere that talked about a particular instance when the laundress offered.... cough... "other services" besides washing the soldiers' clothing. However, I still don't think all laundresses should be lumped into the category of being disreputable.
That is an interesting story about the attempted forced divorce. Huzzah to the officer who loved his wife enough to refuse the order. The commanding officer should have been the one sent to the gaol, IMHO.
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - February 09 2007 : 08:28:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fitzhugh Williams
Got you going!!! Got you going!!!!
That's the closest I can come, Fitz, to a smiley-face who is sticking his tongue out at you. He needs to have his fingers waggling beside his ears, too.
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - February 09 2007 : 09:51:37 AM
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As to the Question #3, you could write a book on that, and many have. In short, the color and lace denoted the regiment, drummers wore reverse colors, and officers had some privilege when it came to uniform design. They still do. In the French army, most uniforms were white, or a gray-white, but the waistcoat could be a different color. Two regiments might have the same colors, but the cut of the pockets and cuffs would denote the regiment. Generally, corporals and sergeants wore a better grade of fabric and lace, and the officers a still better grade. Drummers wore different colors than the troupes, and royal regiments had different colors still. You have to pick a regiment, then look up what colors were worn. There used to be a good website with some info, but I think it is down now. There were hundreds of regiments, so there is no such thing as a general rule. And there were many different colors. Go to this website, pick a country and time period, and you will get some idea of just how complex this subject is.
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgtitle_tree.cfm?level=1&title_id=269277
And you can tell a British officer because he is more arrogant that the others around him. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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RedFraggle
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Posted - February 09 2007 : 11:17:51 PM
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Thanks for the website, Fitz! Very interesting. And you're not kidding about there not being a general rule for dress. Looks like there were infinite varieties. Who thought up all that, I wonder? Seems super complicated!
As for the officer comment . . . hee hee! |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - February 11 2007 : 10:35:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fitzhugh Williams
And you can tell a British officer because he is more arrogant than the others around him.
And with good reason. He's also much smarter than any Fran-say officer around him. |
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - February 11 2007 : 3:51:25 PM
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| But how would you know? You refuse to associate with the French (or at least you say you do). |
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Obediah
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Posted - February 11 2007 : 7:18:27 PM
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"Intelligent British officer"...now there's any oxymoron if I've ever heard one! |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - February 11 2007 : 10:17:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fitzhugh Williams
But how would you know? You refuse to associate with the French (or at least you say you do).
No! I most certainly have not! Nor will I. ~ sniff ~ Nor is it necessary for me to do so. I have seen quite enough from afar, thank you, and I might mention that the tales I have overheard in camp about the Fran-say officers are quite enough to convince me that their intellect is far inferior to that of our British officers and enlisted men. |
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - February 11 2007 : 11:32:14 PM
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It would seem that arrogance is not confined to only the British officers!
Just remember, when you are taken by the sauvage to be tortured and burned, it is the French who will buy you back from them! |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - February 12 2007 : 12:00:38 PM
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Tsk, tsk, tsk. Miss-yer Lay Fran-say, if you are referring to me, which I think perhaps you are... No. I am not being arrogant, merely truthful.
I would rather burn in the Huron fires than be "bought" by Lay Fran-say! But such an untimely death would not be necessary, for I would be rescued, most bravely and gallantly, by my Pennsylvania Provincial officers and soldiers before that came to pass. |
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - February 12 2007 : 2:01:26 PM
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| Well, are you going to Fort William Henry this Sept? To get some idea what happens there, find a copy of Last Of The Mohicans and fast forward to Scene 23. You should really be more careful not to offend the French! But then, there's no understanding the Anglois. They are a breed apart and make no sense! |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - February 12 2007 : 2:25:34 PM
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I hope to be there, if some of the other members of my regiment will be attending. Perhaps we can carry a flag of truce and determine a piece of neutral ground on which to meet? Only, of course, if I am accompanied by two or three big strong Green-coated men at arms. I shall not risk coming alone!
Yes, I know. It is foretold that we will lose that battle and will lose the fort. But while we are talking about fast forwarding... let us fast forward through time to the year 1759 and the events that took place at Quebec. Then we can fast forward to the year 1760 at Montreal and Detroit. Then we can talk about who wins or loses.
 It's great fun sparring with you, Fitz, and I'm looking forward to the possiblity of meeting you at last! |
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - February 12 2007 : 4:48:34 PM
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We found some neutral ground a couple of years ago at Old Bedford Village, so that should work at Fort WH. There is also the Grand Encampment III at Crown Point in August. I guess if I can only make one of the two, that would be it. But I am going to try and make both. Do you know Tim Cordell? He once wrote for this page:
http://www.mohicanpress.com/fort_william_henry_report.html
It seems his last dispatch was in 2002, so I figured the Hurons got him. But then I got an email from him just over a year ago, and he is now with the French. Smart guy! Well, he said they are planning great things for the anniversary. So if the price of gas doesn't go too high, I plan to do a lot of driving.
Oh, and while you are fast forwarding, pause a minute in 1758 for Fort Carillon. It was a good one! |
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RedFraggle
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Posted - February 12 2007 : 8:32:19 PM
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| You two are too funny, WW and Fitz! I have to say I've been enjoying your sparring match, even as an outside observer. Looks like I opened some can of worms with these Redcoat questions! |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - February 12 2007 : 8:45:00 PM
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| I dunno WW, - you might look good sitting on Fitz's lap. Might keep him away from the tavern wenches he's used to! ... ;) |
you can keep "The Change" |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - February 12 2007 : 9:29:28 PM
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Well RF, I think you merely fueled the fire, as we have been sparring for quite some time now.
MG, this somewhat staid and very loyal British Colonial lady would never stoop so low as to sit on the knee of a Frenchman! Good Heavens! How can you suggest such a thing, Sir? No, no. Miss-yer Lay Fran-say may continue his sordid dalliances with the tavern wenches, for all I care. It rather suits him, don't you think?
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - February 13 2007 : 07:48:55 AM
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| Always trying to help things along. ... ;) |
you can keep "The Change" |
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - February 13 2007 : 5:54:50 PM
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| Unfortunately the "genoux" are not as good as they once were. It seems that last fall, while assisting mes frères rouges to capture, torture and scalp some helpless settlers, I suffered an injury to my left knee. So now I must take care upon which genou les femmes sit. Nevertheless, I will carry on. On to Crown Point, that is. And WH. And speaking of the Grand Encampments, ask some of your Anglois friends the name that Grand Encampment I is now known by. |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - February 14 2007 : 10:43:26 AM
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Hah!!!! Serves you right, Miss-yer! I think you have gotten what you deserve. Too bad you didn't damage both of your knees. That would certainly put a crimp in your "wenching."
[WW hides her smile behind her fan, as she pictures the poor Frenchman crying out in pain when a plump tavern wench plops herself onto his damaged knee.]
Seriously, Fitz... sorry to hear of your injury. Hope it heals soon. |
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - February 14 2007 : 11:44:16 AM
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| It's getting better as time goes on. Strangely enough, it sometimes hurts worse sitting than standing. That bodes ill for extended stays in the tavern. On the other hand, you can get some really good pain killers there, so I will manage. But speaking of the 250th events, one that everyone should consider is Louisbourg in 2008. Yeah, it pretty much at the end of the earth, as least as far as North Amreica is concerned, but the pictures I have seen of it really make me want to go. It's way above Williamsburg as a reconstructed site. Nothing else like it, period!!! |
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Light of the Moon
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Posted - February 22 2007 : 10:04:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by RedFraggle
You two are too funny, WW and Fitz! I have to say I've been enjoying your sparring match, even as an outside observer. Looks like I opened some can of worms with these Redcoat questions!
Boy did ya', Red!
But I will have to say there appears to be some prejudice amongst the clashing cultures here. It's sad too. To see people adhereing to old beliefs and mere hear say without having ever gone directly to the root of it. At one time I detested the english because of their history and certainly they must be the same today. Snobbish, "mannerly" people that will be sugar on your ears and knives in your back.
Then I met some and actually talked with them and became friends with them. They aren't at all what I made of them and I was wrong for my thinking. Since then I don't judge people by "what I've heard" or "what it appears to be from afar" because these things are rarely accurate and play on the side of fancy more than anything.
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I live in my own little world - but that's okay, they know me here! |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - February 22 2007 : 10:17:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
But I will have to say there appears to be some prejudice amongst the clashing cultures here. It's sad too. To see people adhereing to old beliefs and mere hear say without having ever gone directly to the root of it.
Ummmmm... I'm not really sure of what you are referring to here, so please pardon me if I am misunderstanding. But, if you are referring to us, you do realize that Fitz and I are just kidding around, don't you? Fitz is a long-time re-enactor, whom I respect a great deal (just don't tell him that !) and I am a newbie re-enactor who still has much to learn. There is no prejudice between us, at least within the 21st century! 
Right, Fitzie?? You respect me,too, don't you?? There's no prejudice on your part... is there? We are... just joking..... aren't we???? Fitz...????
Does that "Clear it up any?" |
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