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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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 Posted - October 07 2002 : 12:45:04 AM
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The "French and Indian War" brings to mind the fearless, bearded longhunter type sniping at the brightly dressed regular soldier in a dense wooded, almost alien enviroment. Was this really the case? The same people who believe that, also believe the American Revolution was won by the same buckskin clad marksmen. Was the "La Petit Guere" of the Canadian Miliece, Longhunter or Ranger mearly a sideshow to the main event? People may point to Braddock's Defeat, but the pivotal battles for the British (Louisburg and Quebec come to mind) were won using those "foolish" linerar tactics of the professional soldier of Europe. Even the defeat of Major Grant's force in front of Ft. Duquesne, was largely brought about by devestating volley fire from the French Colonial Marines. The British rout at Ticonderoga, once again precipitated by the disciplined volleys of Montcalm's French Regulars. For too many years in the historian/reenactment community this myth has been allowed to continue unchallenged, I say lets bring it to a serious, yet somewhat civil debate.
Your Humble Author,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
42nd RHR
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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Posted - October 09 2002 : 01:08:01 AM
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I know that someone out there has an opinion on this subject, lets get the ball rolling...
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"The Fightin Forty-Twa" |
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
USA
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October 14 2002
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Posted - October 15 2002 : 7:39:50 PM
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I agree that the pivotal battles were european style sieges of fortified positions; Oswego, Ft. William Henry, Louisbourg, Ft. Frontenac, Niagra and Quebec, yet all contained some aspect of american irregular warfare. Armstrong Starkey in his book "European and Native American Warfare 1675-1815" argues that there was a serious effort among both the French and British command to europeanize a war set in a frontier. On the other hand, the British Army did adapt quite a bit to the North American frontier. Toward the end of the war, a British officer wrote, (something to the effect of)"we resemble common plough men more than soldiers." There were more light-infantry in the British Army in North America, than would have been common in Europe, plus rangers and no cavalry. Also drastic changes in the uniforms of most British regular soldiers on campaign to adapt to forest warfare.
-CT•Ranger
"Now we are glad to learn the skulking way of war.” - John Eliot |
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Edmund McKinnon
Colonial Settler
USA
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May 23 2002
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Posted - October 16 2002 : 2:15:16 PM
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Towards the end of the war,the indians complained that the British wouldn't stand still and allow themselves to be killed.They absolutely hated the "Long Knives"(Virginians).I believe that the Crown Forces acquitted themselves quite well. EM
Edmond N.Highlander Jr. |
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
USA
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Posted - October 16 2002 : 9:56:23 PM
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Yes, by the end of the war the British had incorporated a new command, to take cover behind trees. Something which would have been useful for the Brits at Braddock's defeat. And something they apparently forgot a few years later during the revolution.
CT•Ranger
"Now we are glad to learn the skulking way of war.” - John Eliot |
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
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May 19 2002
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Posted - October 16 2002 : 11:18:25 PM
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quote:
bearded longhunter type
They most likely would have been clean shaven, or had only a few days growth of beard. Beards were very uncommon, and worn by only certain ethnic groups.
quote:
buckskin clad marksmen.
They would probably have been dressed in linen, fustian, hemp, cotton, wool, or linsey woolsey. Some brain tan was used for leggings, but generally not for apparel.
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Edmund McKinnon
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - October 17 2002 : 01:10:38 AM
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I believe that the command was to "tree all",similar to our command to "take cover".Braddock doesn't deserve all of the blame for the defeat however.He did make an effort to train his men in wilderness warfare on a couple of stops along the way.He had some experience with irregular warfare at Culloden as well.He did not have the best troops under his command.Before both regiments(44th &48th) left Cork,an effort was made to bring them up to strength by transfers from other units(more than likely the misfits that their commanders wanted to get rid of).When they got to America,they recruited heavily among the colonists and still were unable to bring the regiments up to strength.These men had never really trained together before.And in linear warfare to succeed,this is essential.Braddock may have been faulted for expecting his enemy to fight "European Style",but was not George Washington also guilty of this at Ft.Necessity.Braddock also had too few indians to scout/screen his movements,Thomas Gage failed to take the hill on the right and did not follow up with a bayonet charge after the first three volleys. Braddock had also divided his force(thanks to advice from George Washington)which is one of the commandments of Land Warfare.No,Braddock went by the book and was successful by far,until the second crossing when his men let their guard down when they didn't immediately encounter resistance.Out of all of the men who blamed Braddock for this defeat,GW was the least of anyone to cast aspersions on the poor General.EM
Edmond N.Highlander Jr. |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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Posted - October 17 2002 : 2:54:53 PM
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Dear Fitz,
It appears that you did not so much take my quote out of context, but instead failed to read it in its entirety.
QUOTE:
The "French and Indian War" brings to mind the fearless, bearded longhunter type sniping at the brightly dressed regular soldier in a dense wooded, almost alien enviroment. Was this really the case? The same people who believe that, also believe the American Revolution was won by the same buckskin clad marksmen.
As you can see from the WHOLE quote, it refers to people who are ignorant (due probably to a GOOD public education) of the facts concerning this period in American History.
Your Humble Author,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
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May 19 2002
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Posted - October 17 2002 : 5:41:49 PM
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I know. I picked the part I wanted to use (like a good newscaster). It's really a shame that most people's knowledge comes from TV and movies, and that the producers and directors can't see a reason to make it more correct, when doing so would be just as easy and cost effective. On the bright side, it seems that things are getting more correct as time goes on. And TV documentaries actually try to get the facts right!
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - October 18 2002 : 1:32:39 PM
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I agree with you 100%
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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Edmund McKinnon
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - October 18 2002 : 8:07:44 PM
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Oh,the media.Things have changed since Ben Franklin was a printer.I find that the extracts of 18th century newspapers to be more believeable than the rubbish that is printed today.At least one can get an accurate account of the battles that took place(or at least more so than today).EM
Edmond N.Highlander Jr. |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - October 18 2002 : 9:20:59 PM
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I have all 5 volumes of "French and Indian War Notices from Colonial Newspapers" as well as the additional volume that covers Pontiac's War. It is going to be my winter reading...
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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Edmund McKinnon
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - October 20 2002 : 5:45:33 PM
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Another misconception,is that all of the great Native American victories occurred in the West.Nothing could be further from the truth.One of the greatest was Braddock's Defeat in 1755(900+ casualties).Another was Grant's Hill in 1758(250+ casualties)where there were more soldiers killed than with Custer at The Little Big Horn in 1876.EM
Edmond N.Highlander Jr. |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - October 21 2002 : 12:10:07 AM
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Right again, Captain, unfortunately most people fail to realize that the Indian Nations of the East were REAL nations, and not just nomadic bands.
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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Edmund McKinnon
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - October 21 2002 : 6:34:52 PM
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Would some of the other posters in Mohicanland fall into this category?
Capt.John Graham
Cmdr.42nd Highlanders |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - October 22 2002 : 02:04:49 AM
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Awwww, Captain, we have to be nice and not hurt their feelings, otherwise we might get spanked. Or, we can just hang out down here at the military side of the house...
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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Edmund McKinnon
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - October 23 2002 : 02:39:40 AM
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I think that would be best.Hurt feelings,ouch!
Capt.John Graham
Cmdr.42nd Highlanders |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - October 23 2002 : 03:44:55 AM
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Aye Captain, we can vent properly at 'The Barracks' so that we do not offend those who are governed by their emotions (we wouldn't want logic and reason get in the way of a trendy thought, now do we?).
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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Two Kettles
Colonial Settler
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Posted - October 25 2002 : 4:26:13 PM
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"Thomas Gage failed to take the hill on the right and did not follow up with a bayonet charge after the first three volleys..."
Huzzah, EM. I have long felt that the real "loser" at the Monongahela was that military disaster looking for a place to happen, Gage. I can't help but wonder what would have happened if those first few volleys had been followed by a bayonet charge straight down the road, with flankers sent out to clear the edges and that bloody hill taken. Which is what Gage should have done. It's ironic that the battle is usually portrayed as a failure of classic British military tactics when, in fact, it was the failure to properly follow the tactics that lost the battle. Then Gage went on to replace Lord Howe at Ti, and eventually to Boston and Bunker Hill...egads.
Two Kettles
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - October 27 2002 : 7:40:09 PM
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Two Kettles,
I am a student of Braddock's Defeat (being that I only live 15 minutes from the battlefield haelped pique my interest) and I couldn't agree more with you. I have often wondered 'what if?', over several aspects of that engagement. I salute your insight, Bravo!!!
Your Humble Servant,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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Edmund McKinnon
Colonial Settler
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Posted - October 27 2002 : 8:32:24 PM
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I agree whole heartedly with you Two Kettles.After Gage's first volleys where the French commander Beajeau was killed,the French forces were in disarray.They could have been routed then and there.Gage hesitated however(for whatever his reasons,perhaps he was apprehensive about the strength of the enemy that lay unseen up ahead)and Dumas assumed command and saved the day for the French.The twilight then began to set upon the mediocre military career of an officer who's last efforts were to try and halt the colonists at Lexington & Concord as well as Breed's Hill.
Capt.John Graham
Cmdr.42nd Highlanders |
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
USA
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Posted - October 29 2002 : 8:52:28 PM
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In Knox's Journal he writes that the British Army in America was "... instructed in the regular and irregular...method of fighting...in fine, they were trained up in every particular that prudence, with experience, could dictate, to render the troops expert in an open or covered country."
In his book "Redcoat: The British Soldier and War in the Americas, 1755-1763" Stephen Brumwell writes: "Between 1755 and 1763, the officers and men of the 'American Army' soldiered under a wide variety of conditions: they encountered French regulars arrayed on open ground or ensconced behind field-works; skirmished through woods and scrub with Indians and militia; sapped forward methodically with pick and shovel against permanent fortifications; and developed considerable expertise in the amphibious operations that form such a striking feature of Britian's war effort in the Americas." This author argues that it was the combination of the Old World with the New, which characterized the F&I War, and not simply 'a European conflict in a New World setting.' He writes that "the brief bouts of 'regular' warfare were invariably waged against a broader canvas of low-intensity 'irregular' conflict." This book is a good read for those of you interested in or reenacting His Majesty's troops, and there's even a chapter on "The Highland battalions in the Americas" for you Scots.
-CT•Ranger
"Now we are glad to learn the skulking way of war.” - John Eliot (during King Philip's War 1675/6) |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - October 29 2002 : 11:36:32 PM
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Excellent point, Ranger, I almost forgot about the amphibious warfare dimension to some of the key campaigns (Ticonderoga,Louisburg & Quebec). Lets kick that idea out into the open and see who wants to give some insight into the technological and tactical sides of the amphibious operations during these campaigns. Another angle which is closely tied to the AmphibOps, is logistics.
Your Humble Servant,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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Edmund McKinnon
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Posted - October 30 2002 : 02:11:30 AM
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Mr.Brumwell is probably THE leading authority on the British soldier in N.America during F&I/RevWar.I look forward to meeting him on Nov.2,2002 at the F&I Seminar at Jumonville.He will also appear with me as a talking head in"George Washington's First War:The Battle for Ft.Duquesne"(www.paladincom.com).In addition, Dr.Fred Anderson & Bruce Egli will be in this one as well.Last but not least will be Dr.Paul Kopperman(Braddock on the Monongahela).I feel honored to be in the presence of these great scholars who will give different and various perspectives of irregular warfare in Colonial America during F&I.
Capt.John Graham
Cmdr.42nd Highlanders |
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SgtMunro
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Posted - October 30 2002 : 02:35:06 AM
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Aye Captian, I agree. Mr. Brumwell has suceeded in writting the best work on the British Army of our period since "Fit For Service".
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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Two Kettles
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Posted - October 30 2002 : 1:46:31 PM
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"Lets kick that idea out into the open and see who wants to give some insight into the technological and tactical sides of the amphibious operations during these campaigns."
Something else to add to the mix: I've read somewhere (and to save me I can't remember where it was) about how seapower even helped defeat Pontiac. Although the Highlanders and 60th lights rightly deserve fame for their heroism at Bushy Run and the relief of Ft. Pitt, it was the naval vessels on the lakes that kept Detroit supplied and reinforced. And even at the debacle at Bloody Run, it was whaleboats from the fort, with swivels mounted in the front, that kept Pontiac's warriors at bay so Rogers and his Rangers could evacuate Campeau's farm after their rear-guard action.
Two Kettles
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Continental Tactics in a Frontier World?
