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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
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 Posted - January 09 2007 : 5:38:39 PM
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BTW Sarge, - the IRA are not terrorists. One mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, - as the saying goes. The Brits have a strange way of looking at their occupations of others countries. When you're aiming a rifle at me, - in my country, - and then you call me the terrorist? ;)
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - January 11 2007 : 12:33:43 AM
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quote:
Monadnock Guide noted: BTW Sarge, - the IRA are not terrorists. One mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, - as the saying goes. The Brits have a strange way of looking at their occupations of others countries. When you're aiming a rifle at me, - in my country, - and then you call me the terrorist? ;)
Well MG, if one is strictly going toe-to-toe with military/government entities, then yes, perhaps the "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter" rule would apply. However, during my three years stationed in the UK, I seen more than one instance where these IRA Tangos engaged civilian targets, like setting off road-cone bombs near school yards, machine-gunning funerals, car-bombs along parade routes marched by 'Orangemen'(Not that some of them rank for sainthood either, but that is another topic) during festivals, among many others. I would also like to note that the vast majority of the victims were locals, you know, Irish folk (The same people those a**holes were claiming to liberate). I cannot seem to recall the last time the IRA engaged in a stand-up fight against armed British soldiers, and won. Their version of attacking the British military is ambushing off-duty (And unfortunately unarmed) British soldiers and RUC cops (And their families... that would be women and children, for the most part), and then running away before the real fun begins. Not exactly the image of a valiant partisan fighting to free his country from the oppressive yoke of a 'foreign' invader, huh?
The question of Northern Ireland is a touchy one at best, but since the vast majority of Irish people living there prefer to remain a part of the United Kingdom, then the 'Ayes' have it.
Oh well, please accept my apologies for straying waaaaaaaaaaay off of topic. I shall endeavor to not do so again, my friends.
YMH&OS,
The Sarge |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
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Posted - January 11 2007 : 07:22:31 AM
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When one is vastly outnumber, - going toe-to-toe is not exactly the way to go. The British are completely responsible for the IRA's very existance. If the British had stayed in Britian, there would be no problem. It's not Irish troops in England arresting/torturing British civilians - it's British troops in Ireland killing/arresting foreign nationals on their wown land. The history of the British in Ireland has never been told in this country, - it goes back centuries, hence the deep, and well deserved hatred involved. The very last place Americans can get the truth is on a 20 second news clip on the evening news. People killed/starved to death for no reason, land and property taken, crops harvested sent almost entirely back to England, unable to vote in their own country, - the list is nearly endless. No, there's a very good reason the IRA exists - Britian. Trying to "negotiate" has been proven a total waste of time.
If Britain had only stayed in Britain. Then again, how many countries can thank Britian for their present day probblems. Might glance at India/Pakistan, - Iraq/Kuwait for starters. ... ;) |
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Irishgirl
Council of Elders
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Posted - January 11 2007 : 09:36:49 AM
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| Well Sarge and MG I am from Northern Ireland and family still lives there. I grew up with the violence of the IRA and their counterparts on the other Protestant side. I, for the record, am Catholic. Protestants do, for the most part want to remain part of the UK but Catholics, we call ourselves Irish and see only one Ireland. I have had friends die at the hands of both sides, most recently being the Omagh bomb attack in 1998. Why, my brother himself just narrowly missed death himself in that attack. That was the "real IRA" supposedly and some people I personally knew died that day or were affected by the bombing. I am a good Irish Catholic but I look at the IRA as terrorists although in my younger, stupid days saw them as defending our freedom more and I wanted the Brits out of Omagh, my hometown and our country. I still wish they would leave and Ireland was one again but that is not likely to happen. The IRA bombs innocent people just like those on the other side do. They bombed our courthouse and I woked just down the street and our place of business was destroyed and had to be rebuilt so they harm Catholics too. If a Catholic works for a Protestant company or a Catholic girl makes a grave mistake of dating a member of the RUC, they can find themselves shot dead. Things like that happen so don't glorify the IRA as they committ all kinds of crimes against their own people too. I know from experience having lived there and experienced it. People over here in the US tend to glorify the IRA and look at them as freedom fighters. They are terrorists plain and simple. |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - January 11 2007 : 09:48:34 AM
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| Have to disagree, - no one involved are saints. They're fighting a war, - and both sides have kelled innocents, "it's the unfortunate part" to steal a line from a well know movie. Their would be no conflict if the Brits had simply stayed in Britain, but alas, and unfortunately that can't be undone. You're only relating (understandably) to recent events, - the hostility goes back for many generations. The Brits are responsible for starving the Irish in their own country, - taking their land, killing untold numbers for centuries, and then the Irish are the problem? I don't think so. |
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Irishgirl
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Posted - January 11 2007 : 09:57:33 AM
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| Well I was born there, lived there and grew up there. I went to school there and worked there and experienced violence first hand. I think I know what I am talking about and my brothers and sister and relatives still are living there. Have you lived there MG? Did you experience the British having bases in your town and patroling the streets and being stopped at checkpoints and searched. Believe me, I was no big fan of them and the RUC are very biased against us Catholics but the IRA are no saints and although we all wanted the Brits out of the North, we do not condone violence of any sort. One side kills some Protestants and the other kills some Catholics and so it goes on and on. I want the English out of the North, always have and always will but violence is not the answer and the IRA are not the answer. They are TERRORISTS plain and simple. You just don't like the Brits do you MG? The English are the problem and always have been but don't make terrosits out to be heroes. |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - January 11 2007 : 10:16:21 AM
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| I have relatives in Cork as a matter of fact. We simply view this diferently, - most of the world "recent hot spots" have an English history. If it weren't for armed rebellion, - the Brits would still be running all of Ireland, and any number of other countries too. It would indeed to "nice" to see an end to any conflict, - but it's not very likely either. |
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Irishgirl
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Posted - January 11 2007 : 1:31:54 PM
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| Well we can agree on that MG no end to the conflict any time soon. I agree that without any resistance things would have been worse in Ireland and other countries that they tried to take over but living over here in the US, you cannot truly know what goes on inside a country by simply reading about it or seeing footage on the tv. When you live in the country itself you have a much better insight into what is going on. I saw things differently when I lived there and thought of the IRA as some kind of heroes defending us Irish Catholics but now, after having lived in other countries and this one for almost 16 years now, I can see them in a whole different light. I respect your point of view though. |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - January 11 2007 : 8:11:50 PM
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| Shortly after Tommy Sands' death, - I had the pleasure of meeting his brother, who was here on a "fund raising" event. |
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Irishgirl
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Posted - January 11 2007 : 10:43:01 PM
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| I recall that whole hunger strike going on when I was in school I believe around 1979 or 1980. He starved himself to death which I did not agree with. Those hunger strikes in my opinion never did any good. Too many Americans fund the IRA thinking they are doing good when in fact the money buys more guns and bombs with which to kill innocent people. Of course in the North you dare not speak out against the IRA for fear of retribution against your family. |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - January 12 2007 : 05:23:04 AM
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| May 4, 1981 - I never met anyone who didn't know where the money was going. As I said, we look at this differently. They are the ONLY reason the British backed off. |
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Redbird
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Posted - January 12 2007 : 5:08:02 PM
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I hesitate to butt in here, but I feel partly responsible since it was my off-hand comment about the IRA that started this. And MG - I think maybe you were referring to *Bobby* Sands who wrote "Back Home in Derry", supposedly written on toilet paper and smuggled out of the prison -- some people call it the unofficial national Irish anthem? Anyway, I think I do understand what you're trying to say. I'm afraid it is all too true that the British would never have left at all if it weren't for militant armed resistance, going back to before the Easter Uprising. But this is no longer your grandfather's (or mine) IRA. This is not even the same IRA from the 70s. I'm old enough to remember Bernadette Devlin and Bloody Sunday, myself; and I used to feel the same way Irish has described about the IRA, but also like, her my views have changed over time. It's a circular argument, because we can't get around the fact that Britain wouldn't have pulled out without resistance... and the Irish have been resisting for over 800 years! But this IRA is no longer a group of brave freedom fighters. They have become, instead, a thing of shadows, and plastique, and timing devices. My late father (an Irish American and a WWII vet) always said that bombs are a coward's weapon, and I have to agree with him.
Irish Unity is a laudable goal, but to me, it does not justify the taking of one innocent life. We (the Irish) have a lot of terrible wrongs and injustices in our history (as well as incredible beauty, magic, and courage). Nothing we do today can undo these wrongs from the past, anymore than we can bring back any of the thousands who died during the famine or on the coffin ships that sailed for Australia or the Americas. I am so proud of my Irish heritage, and I'm proud for any who fought for her in the past -- but you cannot convince me that Michael Collins himself would be proud of what this newer IRA has become. They have only laid more blood and sorrow at the feet of the goddess that is Eire. I'm sorry if I'm coming on too strongly... I do understand the hundreds of years of pain and injustice behind what MG's saying; and like Irish said, I also respect your point of view.
It's ironic to me -- when this discussion started, there happened to be a CD case sitting next to the boombox I keep on the kitchen counter. It's U2's early CD, called "War". The cover was famous - has a black and white close-up of a little boy's face, with really angry eyes and a bloody lip. I'd been listening to it again recently. BTW, I remember when U2 was a *new* band -- heck, I remember when The Edge had hair! :-) Bono's attitude is the way I see it too.
"Broken bottles under children's feet,
and bodies strewn across a dead end street,
but I won't heed the battle call,
it puts my back up, puts my back up against the wall."
"The trenches dug within our hearts,
and mothers, children, brothers, sisters torn apart."
--- "Sunday Bloody Sunday (1983)
"People over here in the US tend to glorify the IRA and look at them as freedom fighters. They are terrorists plain and simple." --- Irish Girl
I'm afraid that both parts of Irish's statement are true (at least, now). I go to lots of Irish stuff around here. We have a huge Irish Fest; there's pubs, music, have friends who play music. On New Year's Eve, we went to a local pub to hear a band, and there was a guy there (as there often are at any of these gatherings) with a t-shirt on that said "IRA Bomb Squad"! I just wanted to go up to him and say, "Man, what are you thinking?!" I like a lot of the rebel songs (and the Jacobite songs), but I can't get into throwing my fist in the air and yelling "IRA!!", like some people do... people who have never gotten any closer to the troubles than the bar of the pub or their TV sets. I would suggest that everybody -- no matter what side you believe yourself to be on -- rent the movie "Omaug |
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Redbird
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Posted - January 12 2007 : 5:17:27 PM
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"Oh well, please accept my apologies for straying waaaaaaaaaaay off of topic. I shall endeavor to not do so again, my friends."
--- The Sarge
Uh, Sarge... I don't think you went there all by yourself?! 
We may not agree on everything, but I'm still wondering where that kiss is?!
Perhaps we'll have to get Fitz to add a Highlander to his toy line-up?! 
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Irishgirl
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Posted - January 12 2007 : 6:01:43 PM
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| Yes Red I want to see "Omagh" since that is my hometown where I lived and grew up and where the '98 bombing occurred. I had friends hurt in that bombing and others I knew who lost their life and whose place of business were destroyed. I saw first hand what the IRA did to our courthouse in Omagh back in the early 80's I believe it was. My siblings still live there and other relatives and indeed I agree with you that the IRA is not the IRA of the past. Just because they are Irish and the English occupy our country it does not give them the right to kill innocent people which they always end up doing. |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - January 12 2007 : 6:07:17 PM
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| This thread grows too long, - my last post. My friend Redbird, - you have a "nice" (romantic?) view of the old IRA. Truth be known, they wouldn't have fought with pitchforks if they could get their hands on a few rocket launchers and timing devices - trust me. Have innocent civilians be killed? Without any question, and the price of the objective is/was high, but worth it. Actually I'm not big on Fests of any kind, - including Irish Fests. Far too much bs. If the IRA had the ability to put up an Air Force, - we'd be talking about that huge crater next to Ireland. You reference only recent "problems" - the Brits have been mudering the Irish for centuries, - hence todays problems. Your first paragraph is right on, - then when things get a tad dicy - you weaken. As I said before, there are no saints in any conflict, - and this one is no different. Civilians unfortunately have been lost in every war, - might review the American Civil War. We do have something in common though my friend, - my father fought in WWII also. He was stationed in Atlidbridge England with the 466th Heavy Bombardmant Group - they flew B-24 Liberators. I never looked at bombing Germany as a cowards act though. ;) |
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Redbird
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Posted - January 12 2007 : 6:09:56 PM
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Irish--
I "flashed" on the movie when this started. When I read your post shortly afterward, that said you were from there, it gave me shivers... It is indeed a small world! Erin Gobraugh!! :-) |
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Irishgirl
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Posted - January 12 2007 : 6:17:23 PM
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Small world indeed Red. Thankfully you can see the IRA for what they truly are. People over here fund them and wear shirts like you said supporting them but they do not truly know what goes on in Ireland and if they did maybe they would think twice. I used to never vote for any of the Sinn Fein candidates as they are just there to do the work of the IRA, instead my vote went to the SDLP the other Catholic party.
This sure is a hot topic and how on earth it went from LOTM toys to this is amazing. |
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Redbird
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Posted - January 12 2007 : 6:24:59 PM
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MG -- I just don't think we should go here anymore...? I'm aware of the atrocities, and the genocide, and the Penal Laws, and the Normans. But there are English people today who I would still call my friends. If the Catholic Irish had been allowed to have weapons long ago, the British might have been gone much sooner. And a fighter pilot firing on a military target (or what he thinks is one) is not the same as a guy who plants a bomb, then runs away to detonate it from a safe distance, knowing full well there will be innocent people (ie women and children) blown up (and yes, someone *could* bring up Dresden). Maybe it's a woman's viewpoint, but I still see it as murder - even if it's in the name of freedom. And the Civil War is just another area where the lines of right and wrong can easily be blurred. We could go on and on; but let's just agree to disagree, and walk away from this one? We can *both* agree we love Eire -- and I, for one, hope I get to walk her shores one day, when noone is shooting at onyone else!
To steal part of Seamus's tag line "Pax Vobiscum". Hope I spelled that right, Red?
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Irishgirl
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Posted - January 12 2007 : 6:35:34 PM
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If MG had grown up there he would see things differently I would hope. Our next door neighbors had 4 children and the eldest boy Brian Leonard, a nice young boy, when a teenager happened to go work at a place the IRA deemed Catholics should not work at. It was contracting work of some kind and I don't recall exactly but maybe it was a Government place but anyway he was married and had a couple of young kids and they shot him dead just because he worked there. You have to do as they say and not step out of line despite having to feed your family. They do things like that all the time and that is not the work of heroes or freedom fighters to kill your own people but the work of murderers and thugs who wish people to do as they say. There were places I could not go or work for that matter for fear of retribution and we could not date a Protestant either. That was out of the question but then I would not have wanted to anyway as that just was not done. A good Irish friend I made in Germany who was from the North, we used to laugh and say at home we could not hang out together as she was Protestant and I Catholic. That would have spelled trouble. To support the IRA is like supporting any other terrorist group. Just because they are not muslim or Arabs does not make them any less terrorists.
We must all agree to disagree I think MG. |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - January 12 2007 : 6:54:56 PM
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| Sad story ineeed, - but you're on the team, or you're not. One does not have to live in Iraq, to have a view/opinion on what's going on. Trust me, - we disagree. Lets' leave it at that. |
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Irishgirl
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Posted - January 12 2007 : 10:00:51 PM
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| One does not have to live in Iraq to have a view or opinion on what's going on that is true but those who do live in Iraq certainly have a better understanding of exactly what the situation is over there and who the bad guys are. Now with that I am done with this whole IRA discussion but it saddens me that anyone would support terrorists even if they are white terorists and not the usual suspects. |
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SgtMunro
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Posted - January 14 2007 : 06:05:30 AM
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quote:
Redbird said: Uh, Sarge... I don't think you went there all by yourself?!
We may not agree on everything, but I'm still wondering where that kiss is?!
You are right, dear Lassie. And even though I as a gentleman would never "Kiss and tell", I would be honored to give such a lovely lady as yourself one
...And Irishgirl, I too have great admiration and affection for you as well. I figured that you were doing a better job at debating the whole IRA issue, since you lived it firsthand (whereas I only experienced it as a allied soldier stationed in the UK), so I stepped back and learned a great deal more from your own words, and seeing it through your eyes.
YMH&OS,
The Sarge |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Irishgirl
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Posted - January 14 2007 : 09:55:21 AM
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| Thank you Sarge for you kind words, they are much appreciated. |
IG |
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Redbird
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Posted - January 14 2007 : 10:29:13 PM
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You are right, dear Lassie. And even though I as a gentleman would never "Kiss and tell", I would be honored to give such a lovely lady as yourself one
--- Sarge
Thanks Sarge! I happened to be married to another "Highlander" (also part Indian :-o); but I don't think he'll mind. Wish I could get him to try a kilt! He's got some of the bonniest legs I've seen on a man; but I could be a little bit prejudice?  |
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Tim Cordell
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Posted - January 20 2007 : 9:53:57 PM
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| The endless but continuing struggle. My Grandfather supported the IRA.. and that's 80 years or more ago. My Irish band will be playing next weekend at David's PUB & Brewery in Glens Falls, (Just down the road from Lake George). We will be featuring some of the fight songs.."Come Out You Black & Tan", "The Broad Black Brimmer of the IRA", "Boys Of The Old Brigade", etc. Our audiences always have a sense of the history and the music. If you're in the area, stop in and raise a glass with us. Tim |
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The IRA
