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Mountain Man
Colonial Settler
USA
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 Posted - April 03 2006 : 7:13:55 PM
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Can we assume that Magua’s intentions from the start, were always to abduct the Munro sisters and take them to the Huron village? Or was this an afterthought by him to gain recognition from the Sachem? I question this because, Magua’s mission (along with killing Munro) was to have the Grey Hair’s seed wiped out forever, and he even told this to Montcalm.
His exact words were ...“When the Grey Hair is dead, Magua will eat his heart. Before he dies Magua will put his children under the knife so the Grey Hair will see his seed is wiped out forever".
In reading that statement, it appears to me that his intention was to kill the girls in front of Munro for him to witness. Or should this be interpreted as Magua simply wanting Munro to see him taking them captive under the knife? It doesn’t seem that way to me. If he was so intent on having them dead, then he should have seized the opportunity under the falls. As it turns out, the Sachem robbed him of his opportunity for revenge!
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LeyLana1462
Colonial Settler
Australia
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Posted - April 03 2006 : 7:34:50 PM
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Hi MM
I think that was his intentions but things didn't exactly happen the way he wanted.
When he saw that Munro was basically trapped I think he just thought "Stuff it, girls in long dresses run slow, deal with them later"......lol...... I think he took the opportunity.
It certainly did appear that he was looking for approval, didn't it.
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Emily
Colonial Settler
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Posted - April 03 2006 : 10:46:27 PM
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That's an interesting question.
And as for gals being slow in all of that garb, I believe with Magua on my tail I may have been slow but I would have definately given him a run for his money! |
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Irishgirl
Council of Elders
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Posted - April 03 2006 : 11:06:16 PM
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| I don't think he intended to kill the girls in front of Munro. I believe he just wanted to tell Munro, before he killed him, that he would "wipe out his seed forever" by putting his children under the knife. You raised a good point MM as to why he did not kill them right there and then under the falls. That would have seemed the logical thing to do unless he wanted to see them suffer a more painful death as in being BBQ'd alive at the Huron Village. |
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paazau
Colonial Settler
Australia
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Posted - April 04 2006 : 12:40:31 AM
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Good questions Mountain Man!  I don’t think Magua’s intentions were to abduct the Munro sisters… Nor to necessarily kill them in front of Munro. When he made that statement to Montcalm, I think he meant ‘see’ as in 'to be aware of; to know'. If Magua meant to kill the girls in front of Munro, why then in the Ambush scene did he attempt to shoot Cora??? I don't think he was aimin' to injure her there and take her captive.... Unless he changed his plans at the last minute due to Hawkeye, Uncas & Chingachgook showing up...???
Neither do I think Magua’s intention was for Munro to ‘see’ his daughters being taken captive under the knife. He definitely intended to kill them both. That’s the only way to ‘wipe out his seed forever’. I think, at some point in time after Magua was foiled in the Ambush he changed his plans, and decided to take the sisters (Duncan was an added bonus, being in the cave with them) captive to gain Sachem's approval and prove he is "still a Huron" even though he became "blood-brother to the Mohawk" when enslaved by them. Remember when he says to Montcalm "In time Magua became blood-brother to Mohawk to become free, but in his heart he was always Huron."??
When Magua takes Cora, Alice, and Duncan to the Huron village he says to Sachem "And Magua has become a great war leader and seeks your acknowledgement. And so, I have brought three of my prisoners, to honor you. Then he goes on to say how the girls are the children of the white war chief Munro, and he has brought them to the village so they can burn in ‘our fire so all may share’...
Again, Hawkeye shows up and foils Magua’s plans.
My train of thought here (and your thread) has brought back a question that’s been in my mind for a while. I’ll make it a separate thread though (in a little bit) so we can fully discuss Magua’s intentions first.
Looking forward to reading your further thoughts on this...
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Carter
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Posted - April 04 2006 : 08:48:02 AM
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I agree with Irishgirl. Magua wanted to have a little fun like a cat that toys with its prey. I think he also wanted "official sanction" (for lack of a better phrase) or validation of his desire for revenge. He also wanted the Huron to share in the enjoyment of his revenge.
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Mountain Man
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Posted - April 04 2006 : 5:13:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by paazau
I don’t think Magua’s intentions were to abduct the Munro sisters…
I still believe that an abduction may have been Magua’s intention for 3 reasons. 1. Acknowledgment by the Sachem that he had become a great war leader was very important to him, I know it was still early in the game but he must have been thinking about it, even if he only had the Munro sisters to present to him. Plus he was responsible for taking out a few companies of the British Regulars. No small feat! 2.He did end up at the Huron village. 3.He could have killed Cora & Alice under the falls, but he didn’t, instead he spared them to present to the Sachem.
quote:
Unless he changed his plans at the last minute due to Hawkeye, Uncas & Chingachgook showing up...???
This is a good point and I think it’s a definite possibility. This might also have been the reason why he was taking aim at Cora. He may have figured it was his last chance to kill her now that Hawkeye, Uncas & Chingachgook screwed up his plans.
quote:
Neither do I think Magua’s intention was for Munro to ‘see’ his daughters being taken captive under the knife.
I believe I did interpret Magua’s statement to Montcalm the wrong way. After reading it over,
it would appear that he meant it as “being aware” or “to know”.
Of course, all of the above is speculation and we may never know if Magua's true plan was an abduction from the beginning or if his decision to go to the Sachem was something that developed after Massacre Valley.
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Mountain Man
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Posted - April 04 2006 : 5:26:31 PM
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Come on! Carter, you have connections. Can’t you talk to Wes and settle this for us once and for all? |
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paazau
Colonial Settler
Australia
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Posted - April 05 2006 : 01:24:30 AM
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First, let me clarify; when I said "I don’t think Magua’s intentions were to abduct the Munro sisters" I meant 'original intentions' ie from the beginning of the movie ... definitely by the time he finds them under the falls abduction is his intent.
But now you've got me thinking again Mt Man. It could well be that Magua's intention all along was abduction, and his aiming at Cora in the Ambush scene was as a result of Hawkeye, Uncas & Chingachgook showing up. Magua seems to me like the planning, calculating kind of guy; surely Magua would have been thinking over for months/years (??) how best to pay back Munro for what he suffered. It would therefore be plausible that abducting the girls and taking them to Sachem to gain his approval was something he'd been thinking of for a long period of time (kidnap them, take them to the village, torture them, send Munro evidence of their demise, then kill Munro); and all his actions were leading towards that.... As usual though, even the best-laid plans can go awry.
You're right though, it is all speculation, and we may never know.. unless Carter's willing to use the connections you mention... |
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Bill R
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Posted - April 05 2006 : 2:52:38 PM
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Possibly Magua's original intent was to kill the "seed" of Munroe as his own seed and family had been killed by Monroe's actions. That would imply allowing Munroe to live (at least a little while) in grief as Magua had suffered. That position would be reinforced by Magua's attempting to shoot Cora. Now, perhaps he meant to merely capture them, take them with him to be killed later by fire, or in front of Munroe (at the fort, putting the knife to them in sight of Munroe at the woodline or some such). But Hawkeye foiled those plans and he was left with trying to kill at least one of the girls before escaping. Later, the chase leading up to Hawkeye's party entering the fort, could be a continuation of Magua's plan. Capture the girls. Take them to the fort, kill them in sight of Murone.
Foiled again. They made it into the fort. Magua could not expect that the fall of the fort would result in a rich opportunity to
kill Munroe. In that wild melee things just kinda happened. Perhaps his primary intent was to attack the column and kill the girls (which Munroe being part of the column would certainly know about) but once again things were overtaken by events. Munroe falls. Trapped under horse. Ripe opportunity for Magua, so he takes his personal revenge on Munroe, but not before telling him what his plan was all along.........killing Munroe's seed - his family - so Munroe has that knowlege as he dies. Then, Magua goes after the girls once again to complete his "mission". However, since he was allowed to lead a war party of Huron, I'd imagine it was expected that he return with that party and honor the sending village with captives, booty, etc. It was always his intent to kill
the girls. But with Munroe dead, the urgency of the killing was defused.......so he could allow them to burn or be tortured and killed by the sending Huron chief as thanks for providing the war party and due to his station.
My thoughts.
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Mountain Man
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Posted - April 05 2006 : 6:47:25 PM
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You make some valid points Bill R, and I would have to agree with them all, but the one thing I question is...was it Magua’s war party who was pursuing them up until the time of them entering the fort? Referring to the script it reads: and the band of red-painted Ottawa and Coureurs des Bois, who have now split into two groups, are still on their trail.” then later... UNCAS looks over his shoulder. HIS POV: OTTAWA pursuing them. There's no way back. They're propelled forward. There is no mention of Magua and his Huron War party at this point. Or should we assume that Magua is in the area and also hot on their trail?
Another thing to consider is, at the Massacre Valley scene, Cora nearly loses her life at the hands of an Ottawa warrior, plus, either one of the girls could have been killed at anytime by another warrior or a stray shot. This in turn would have denied Magua his tropies of honor to be presented to the Sachem. Alive! anyway.
I know Cora & Alice being killed wasn’t in the script, (beat you to it Seamus  ) since their death at this point in the movie would not have set it up for the great ending to come, but it’s something to think about.
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Carter
Colonial Militia
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Posted - April 06 2006 : 08:57:20 AM
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quote:
Come on! Carter, you have connections. Can’t you talk to Wes and settle this for us once and for all?
Weeelll yeah....but. LOL Isn't it much more fun to speculate? And besides, Wes is very available to his fans. We have a section on our message board where Wes answers questions directly. Check it out sometimes! You can ask Magua anything! 
www.wesstudi.net
And just to clarify, I book his public appearances, not his movies.
Except for a short time when he was between agents. That was fun, but I am not exactly connected in Hollywood! I am just a country girl from Georgia!
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
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Posted - April 06 2006 : 12:26:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill R
It was always his intent to kill the girls. But with Munroe dead, the urgency of the killing was defused.......so he could allow them to burn or be tortured and killed by the sending Huron chief as thanks for providing the war party and due to his station.
Very well said, Bill.
I agree with your analysis completely. I think we can take Mr. Magua's words quite literally!
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paazau
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Posted - April 06 2006 : 4:49:28 PM
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I agree with you on that count Mt Man, it was the Ottawa and Coureurs des Bois, that had raided Cameron's cabin (and showed up at the burial ground), that were in pursuit. There's no sight or mention of Magua and his warriors that survived the ambush. They were obviously on their way to the French camp though, as Magua meets with Montcalm shortly thereafter, so they would have been 'in the area' as you say.
As for Magua's primary intent being to attack the column and kill the girls, I think it was definitely an important part of Magua's plan, but the other purpose was so Montcalm would not have to "fight the same men again" when he drives south to Albany. (Montcalm's conversation with Magua in the forest)
During the massacre Magua had to just 'go with the flow' and adjust his plans as events unfolded. Did you notice he was very nearly cheated of killing Munro?? After he shoots the horse, and approaches Munro he has to push another warrior away who is about to scalp Munro. Wouldn't that have pi**ed him off to no end!!!???  |
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Mountain Man
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Posted - April 06 2006 : 7:01:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by paazau
After he shoots the horse, and approaches Munro he has to push another warrior away who is about to scalp Munro. Wouldn't that have pi**ed him off to no end!!!???
Yes paazau, I did take notice to that, and that warrior that he pushes away is also Huron, so it makes me wonder...since Magua’s main objective was the capture/killing of Cora, Alice & Munro, especially Munro, wouldn’t you think he would have notified or pointed out Munro to his fellow Huron’s and told them that... “he is all mine!, keep your hands off the Grey Hair on horseback”. I don’t know if he could have communicated this to the Ottawa, Osage or any other Indian tribes present, but the warrior who was attempting to scalp Munro was indeed a Huron.
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paazau
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Posted - April 06 2006 : 10:14:02 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Mountain Man
<snip> wouldn’t you think he would have notified or pointed out Munro <snip>
<snip> warrior who was attempting to scalp Munro was indeed a Huron.
Yea, one would suppose all the Hurons hanging with Magua knew his desires, and I'd definitely be tellin' them all to keep their mitts off Munro... Hmmm, someone trying to score his own brownie points with Sachem perhaps???? |
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Mountain Man
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Posted - April 07 2006 : 06:59:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by paazau
Hmmm, someone trying to score his own brownie points with Sachem perhaps????
Yes, that or just doing what comes naturally to any ambitious blood thirsty Huron  ,which is taking the scalp of a poor defenseless white man. |
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paazau
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Posted - April 10 2006 : 06:41:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man
<snip> and that warrior that he pushes away is also Huron,
I'm curious Mt Man; what makes you say that warrior is Huron?? I watched that scene again, and to me he looks more....is it Ottawa?? Like the one that grabs Alice and Cora later in that scene. I thought he had similar facial tattoos that's all. |
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Mountain Man
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Posted - April 10 2006 : 06:55:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by paazau
quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man
<snip> and that warrior that he pushes away is also Huron,
I'm curious Mt Man; what makes you say that warrior is Huron??
You disappoint me paazau. It's in the script.
HURON WARRIOR about to strike a downwards blow is pushed aside by Magua.
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Magua said, understand English very well. |
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paazau
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Posted - April 10 2006 : 07:06:29 AM
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quote:
You disappoint me paazau. It's in the script.
HURON WARRIOR about to strike a downwards blow is pushed aside by Magua.
That'll teach me! The one time I don't check what it says.............
One to you Mt Man! |
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Mountain Man
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Posted - April 10 2006 : 5:40:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by paazau
quote:
You disappoint me paazau. It's in the script.
HURON WARRIOR about to strike a downwards blow is pushed aside by Magua.
That'll teach me! The one time I don't check what it says.............
One to you Mt Man!
That's OK, even the pros make mistakes! Although, now your reputation as the queen of script reading/checking is a bit tarnished. |
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paazau
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Posted - April 10 2006 : 11:26:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man
That's OK, even the pros make mistakes! Although, now your reputation as the queen of script reading/checking is a bit tarnished.
I have a reputation already  
My-my-my how quickly some folks form an opinion..... 
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Magua's change of plans
