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Ilse
The Dutch Trader
Netherlands
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 Posted - September 13 2002 : 8:48:06 PM
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Does faith in God automatically rules out belief in evolution?
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Bea
Keeper of the Western Door
Canada
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Posted - September 13 2002 : 9:59:31 PM
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Our Edmonton Christian Schools do not teach evolution. Well, at least the ones I know of.
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Ilse
The Dutch Trader
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Posted - September 13 2002 : 10:05:56 PM
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Why not? Do you agree to that or not?
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Ilse
The Dutch Trader
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Posted - September 13 2002 : 10:18:11 PM
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Never mind it doesn't really matter. My question isn't about schools teaching anything. It's directed to people calling themselves religious. Frankly, schools in your area can teach what they want, but what do YOU think????? Please?
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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
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Posted - September 14 2002 : 09:05:09 AM
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I personally see no contradiction, Ilse.
I would like to point out that while in practice, people do come to "believe" in a scientific theory when it seems to account for the phenomena in question, the proper stance is to regard it as the best current explanation until a better one comes down the pike.
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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Adele
The Huggy Merchant
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Posted - September 14 2002 : 11:11:41 AM
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quote:
Never mind it doesn't really matter. My question isn't about schools teaching anything. It's directed to people calling themselves religious. Frankly, schools in your area can teach what they want, but what do YOU think????? Please?
I like this question! I have often wondered the same thing, how do people reconcile their faith with science? It is not really an issue for me, since I am not a follower of established religion, and whilst I believe in some of the teachings of the holy books, such as the Bible or the Koran....I see them as wonderful literature with lessons for life...not historical fact. Lainey?? This sounds like one for you!
HM
PS Anyone read the book Contact? Or seen the movie? Because I think the areas of science and faith are covered in quite an interesting way....
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Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
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Posted - September 14 2002 : 1:42:58 PM
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Huggy, I've seen this movie. I thought, in the end, the Jodie Foster character came around to believe that perhaps somethings can only be explained through Faith.
Theresa |
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Ilse
The Dutch Trader
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Posted - September 14 2002 : 4:15:02 PM
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Scott: I agree with your point on explanations.
I'm watching reruns of the BBC's "Walking with.." series right now, and it got me thinking on the Book of Genesis, and how to interpret that text. Are 7 days actually 7 days, or more a symbolic, poetic freedom, time period??  How literal are these texts taken by today's Christians (a rude generalization, I realize)? Because I think, they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Ilse
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richfed
Sachem
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 Posted - September 14 2002 : 6:56:19 PM
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quote:
I personally see no contradiction, Ilse.
I would like to point out that while in practice, people do come to "believe" in a scientific theory when it seems to account for the phenomena in question, the proper stance is to regard it as the best current explanation until a better one comes down the pike.
Me either, Scott. And, I believe that, more or less, the Catholic Church favors this view, as well. |
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Lainey
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Posted - September 15 2002 : 01:43:39 AM
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quote:
Does faith in God automatically rules out belief in evolution?
No, faith itself does not automatically rule out belief in evolution itself. Faith in God addresses the 'Who' of our origins & the theory of evolution can address the 'How.' There is no contradiction as far as the theory of evolution, if viable & scientifically supportable, when presented as a study of creative process. Catholic perspective is simple; God created ... however He chose to create is His wisdom. If God created through the process of evolution, so be it.
However, when the question is presented as an either/or proposal, such as the subject heading, 'Creation vs Evolution,' there is obvious conflict. Most evolutionists (meaning Darwin, Malthus, & others within the scientific and anthropological communities) presented & framed the theory as an alternative, contradictory answer to the questions of origin even though the theory does not attempt to answer the very question they purport to address. They reject creation without applying principles of science or reason to it, yet declare evolution while also neglecting to apply principles of science or reason to it. That's dishonest & it's bad science.
The theory of evolution, despite its widespread presumed validity, is actually less supportable by either reason or science than is creationism. No matter what you call God, a logical conclusion can be drawn that there is a creator by applying reason alone. (First cause, First mover, Cause of consciousness, etc.) A painting must first have a painter.
On the other hand, reason alone would never cause a logical conclusion that life came about or progressed through an evolutionary process. Such an hypothesis would first need tangible evidence to even become a thought process, let alone a life process. (Even a Big Bang would first need a trigger & fuel.) One would not simply reason an ape eventually became a man. The questions unanswered; how did non-living matter become complex living matter & from where did this first matter come? Where does life come from & how did it begin?
What do evolutionists say about the level of evidence for this theory & its relationship to creationism?
quote:
"Not one change of species into another is on record...we cannot prove that a single species has been changed."
Charles Darwin, My Life & Letters
"Both schools of thought (Punctuationists and Gradualists) despise so-called scientific creationists equally, and both agree that the major gaps are real, that they are true imperfections in the fossil record. The only alternative explanation of the sudden appearance of so many complex animal types in the Cambrian era is divine creation and (we) both reject this alternative." Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker, W.W. Norton & Company, New York, p 230, 1996
"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." Charles Darwin, The Origin of the Species
"If numerous species, belonging to the same genera or families, have really started into life all at once, that fact would be
fatal to the theory of descent with slow modification through natural selection." Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species
"There is no need to apologize any longer for the poverty of the fossil record. In some ways, it has become almost
unmanageably rich and discovery is outpacing integration...The fossil record nevertheless continues to be composed mainly of gaps." T. Neville George, "Fossils in Evolutionary Perspective" |
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Diane B.
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Posted - September 15 2002 : 08:35:13 AM
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Maybe this is a little simplistic but I have come to believe that God used the process of evolution to create the world. There are many things that support the existence of a higher power and whether people choose to call that higher power God, or the Creator, or some other name is a matter of personal preference and religious beliefs and teachings. There is also much evidence to support the process of evolution as a creative process and as complicated as that process is, that brings me back to the conclusion that only a higher power could be capable of creating evolution!
Hmmmmmm...maybe my take on this isn't as "simplistic" as I originally thought!
Rattlesnake Woman
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Bea
Keeper of the Western Door
Canada
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Posted - September 15 2002 : 10:54:57 AM
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Sorry, I couldn't reply any sooner Ilse, but I was out of town..
You wanted my opinion? Obviously this isn't that easy to answer and my point of view would be very close to Diane's, meaning that God used evolution to create the world.
Here is the viewpoint of my church:http://www.crcna.org/cr/crbe/crbe_pos_creation.htm
As you can see this has been a highly debated subject and I know that some of our church members have trouble with some points. Hope this helped..
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Ilse
The Dutch Trader
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Posted - September 15 2002 : 1:17:56 PM
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Lainey,
Have you ever read Franco Ferucci's book "The Life of God; As Told by Himself"?
Ilse
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Chris
Colonial Settler
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Posted - September 15 2002 : 1:24:11 PM
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I'm with you, Ilse. I don't believe anyone sat with a watch at the beginning of life on earth and calculated when one day ended and the next began. A day could be any length of time, and, if you look at Genesis in that context, there's not a lot of difference between creation and evolution. In my view also, they are not mutually exclusive.
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Brenda
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Posted - September 15 2002 : 8:07:48 PM
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I am with Diane on this one. Also, the bible says that God created Heaven and Earth. We know very little about the universe right now. Maybe the answer to our creation/evolution is still waiting to be discovered!
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Adele
The Huggy Merchant
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Posted - September 16 2002 : 03:36:06 AM
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So.....let's say that is the case....evolution is the means that God created all....and we are still evolving.....could you use that as an argument to say that some of the 'rules' contained in documents written hundreds and hundreds of years ago may at some point become redundant, due to our own evolution? For an example, the Old Testament says we should be stoned for blasphemy....
HM
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Lainey
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Posted - September 16 2002 : 09:53:40 AM
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quote:
Have you ever read Franco Ferucci's book "The Life of God; As Told by Himself"?
No, Ilse, I haven't. This is the farcical book with the premise that God created man to understand Himself?
quote:
So.....let's say that is the case....evolution is the means that God created all....and we are still evolving.....could you use that as an argument to say that some of the 'rules' contained in documents written hundreds and hundreds of years ago may at some point become redundant, due to our own evolution? For an example, the Old Testament says we should be stoned for blasphemy....
This is hypothetical, Adele? Everyone seems to be accepting evolution as a given despite the lack of convincing evidence & the strong disclaimers from acclaimed evolutionists. (Taking me back to my question regarding 'faith in evolution' ...)
If this were so, though, evolution is God's process of creation, does it follow that antiquated rules are redundant?
If you apply the principles of evolution the answer is no. Evolution, as it is understood scientifically, involves physical adaptation & genetic modifications. (We should nearly ALL be physically herculean, somewhat homogenized in appearance, highly disease resistant, more intelligent than previous generations, & superior in the realms of human endeavor such as creativity ... by these principles.)
'Rules' as you bring up reflect social evolution, for which there is evidence (cessation of human slavery in MOST places, pluralistic societies, cultural acclimation), but has no bearing on genetic evolution.
Your example, though, of the Old Testament law of stoning for various offenses is not applicable for different reasons. Firstly, it isn't a tenet of universal wisdom but a matter of justice within one ethnic/cultural group & meant only for that ethnic/cultural group (the Hebrews). It had its purpose for that time & place but not for eternity & not universally. On the other hand, the Ten Commandments are moral wisdoms meant for all & for all time. They're not antiquated even though they're quite ancient. There's a distinction between social justice (which changes from time & place) & moral wisdoms (which are eternal).
Also, laws of the Old Testament, including Rabbinical Law, are not applicable to non-Jewish people, specifically, Gentiles, because the Old Testament was fulfilled & complete through the coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Christians live, as far as law & justice, by the teachings of the New Testament, the Gospels. There is no basis for stoning found within the New Testament (quite the contrary), just as there is no practice of abstinence for specific 'unclean' foods, and so forth.
There is a distinction between physical evolution & social evolution, & a distinction between cultural justice & moral wisdoms.
The one consensus I've read in this thread is that creation & evolution are not mutually exclusive.
"Fides et Ratio" |
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Ilse
The Dutch Trader
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Posted - September 16 2002 : 5:22:46 PM
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quote:
quote:
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Have you ever read Franco Ferucci's book "The Life of God; As Told by Himself"?
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No, Ilse, I haven't. This is the farcical book with the premise that God created man to understand Himself?
Yes. And no  I know this sentence is in most reviews of the book, but I didn't get that out of it. In the book God creates man quite accidentally, much to His own surprise, and after witnessing his capability for learning gets the idea that man can help Him understand Himself and His actions better. You see, in this story God starts out as a playful lonely child in an empty universe.
I found it an immensely enjoyable read.
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Lainey
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Posted - September 28 2002 : 11:36:56 PM
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as o have gotten older and remebered all my Catholic School 12 yrs of relion and a bit of youthful BRAINWASHING.im comming to terms with siding with scientists..........for a reason:
A while back @ a party we were all discussing religion and our beleifs and i said i loved the bible and the stories of Adam n Eve and Nohas arc and a few other sotories.and allott of people laughed @ me and said, you dont beleive that thier names were adam n eve and anth,,gee you dont beleive that eve talked to a snke and ate a fruit off of a tree.and i was devastated when i asked a preist and he said that that bible theory was all made up and kinda like that but those were just facimile stories and i was heartbroken......so i now believe that we evovolved from APE and the caveman and allott of the Bible was written on things that grew out of the ground like mind tripping herbs and allott of THAT GOOD? BOOK is/WAS exagerrated.BUT I still believe in ONE GOD for all.anth
Anthony, you really need to resist such dishonest, self-serving mockery - whatever the source - as a basis for your reasoning & conclusions. Your 'party friends' are so mature, intellectually honest, & theologically reflective that they find it appropriate & intelligent to laugh rather than discuss? And you simply accept that? Is Catholicism so anathema to this crowd?
Your priest advisor wouldn't be associated with one of the many corrupt local seminaries you've previously mentioned, would he? The ones who aggressively reject Church teaching & fidelity to Christ & then point fingers at the Church for failing to clean up the chaotic messes caused by the same disloyal "servants of God"? (Such as the recently headlined sexual abuse by homosexual priests; or the "progressive American Church" that teaches contrary to the Church, rejects Church authority in matters of faith & morals, & has done a damn good job of sowing seeds of confusion.) He's dead wrong & hasn't any RIGHT to lead you astray in matters of faith & morals. Period.
Bible Theory? Sacred Scripture is sacred scripture - accept it or not, but it isn't merely theory to Catholics. How does this priest celebrate Mass, read from the Gospels, & deliver a sound Homily if he believes the Bible to be only theory & fascimile rather than Divine Revelation? Scripture & Tradition ... does he not yet understand?
You have proclaimed your belief in Jesus Christ ... He affirms Adam & Noah in His lineage, not as theories, fables, fictional characters, or fascimile stories, but as actual persons. He is wrong? Is He a liar? Is He simply misguided? Or is He greater & more trustworthy than your acquaintances & disloyal priests?
If you answer 'yes' then you must reject the agendas you've been consuming & listen to reason. If you answer 'no' then you should not state your belief in Him who is wrong, false, deceptive ... That's the same as claiming to "believe" Jesus was a "good teacher" & "a prophet" but not the Son of God. A "good" teacher doesn't intentionally mislead & a prophet can not be a blaspheming liar. (Christ said it is preferable to be either hot or cold, but not lukewarm.)
There is NO inherent conflict between science & faith. It isn't one or the other. Science isn't contrary or greater than God, it is a means to attempt to understand what God created using your God-given senses & intelligence. Yet, science is often wrong in its attempts. Do you so quickly discard its errors as you've discarded Church teachings, authority, sacredness, & history?
Some questions to think about;
What leads you to "believe" (which suggests faith, rather than proof) man evolved from apes and other lower forms of life? What proofs do you have that this is so that are greater than theoretical concepts?
Wh |
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Theresa
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Posted - September 29 2002 : 10:18:43 PM
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This makes absolutely perfect sense to me. You truly have a gift, Elaine.
Theresa |
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Brenda
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Lainey
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 Posted - September 30 2002 : 2:43:37 PM
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Oh, Anthony ... I think you have a LOT of faith! Tell everyone else to stop messing with it ~
"Fides et Ratio" |
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Bea
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Posted - September 30 2002 : 2:57:16 PM
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I second that, Lainey!!! I need Anth, you do and you live it too!! That's what's the most important..
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Adele
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Posted - October 01 2002 : 03:38:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lainey:
Oh, Anthony ... I think you have a LOT of faith! Tell everyone else to stop messing with it ~
"Fides et Ratio"
Just wanted to say that I like that signature Lainey...it suits ya perfectly
HM
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Lainey
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Posted - October 02 2002 : 09:59:40 AM
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Thank you, Adele~
Theresa, merci!
"Fides et Ratio" |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - October 09 2002 : 01:11:29 AM
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God is love,
Love is blind,
Ray Charles is blind,
Ray Charles is God?
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
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Creation vs. evolution
Posted - September 29 2002 : 10:52:24 PM
