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Lt. General Darcy
Lost in the Wilderness
United Kingdom
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October 30 2004
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 Posted - October 30 2004 : 10:55:17 AM
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Please understand I'm not trying to offend US members by saying I hate The Patriot or trying to be mean to anyone who was a reenactor in it, so if you may be offended look away now ad dn't read any further.
The Patriot in my oppinion is rubbish because it is historicaly incorrect and it insults the memoriy of all those who died in Americas first civil war who fought for there king. The character of Col. Tavington is really only an evil version of Col. Tarelton and is the filmmakers attempt at making Col. Tarelton into a villain wich is an insult to Liverpudlians who he is one of there heros.
I also don't like the way the british are reduced to evil Nazi and go around being very cartonised villains. It also makes the war seem more popular than it was e.g. there is no mention of canada which is bigger than the USA and was almost a complete country then where as the USA was only a tiny bit at the cost!
Also it doesn't mention we were letting slaves have there freedom and the rebels weren't and the fact we freed rebel prisoners on the condition that they will not fight us in future but the rebels killed their prisoners!
I hate the way filmakers draw a wedge between the USA and UK when we are each others closest allies its dumb!
Look at The Patriot then look at LOTM and we see which one is clearly more acurate and far better!
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Every man is your enemy who speaks ill of your king amd country! |
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Grenouille
Colonial Settler
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May 17 2002
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 Posted - October 30 2004 : 12:00:13 PM
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Hello,
I was in "The Patriot" as an extra, and though I agree with some of your comments, I'm not going to say which is the bettter film. I will say that "The Patriot" could have been a heck of a lot better if someone like, say Steven Spielberg, directed it...or even Mel Gibson!
Some scenes are too politically correct when it comes to blacks in the film. Racism existed and to whitewash it is an injustice to history. Many scenes are too overly melodramatic. I do agree that the British are portrayed as evil incarnate, and the burning down of the church was way out of line, the British normally fought by "the rules of war", and they never would have put women and children in a church and burned it down.  There was some fighting between the loyalist and patriots in the south that got particularly nasty, though.
The director, Roland Emmerich, definitely took "artistic license" in the film, interpreting his & Hollywood's take on American history. I put him in the category of bad grade B film directors.
The sad thing thing is that the movie could have been soooo much better if someone would have done it right. I feel that it should have been an American director that filmed the movie, not a foreign director like the German Emmerich.
Some of my question concerning the film are: Where are the American cavalry? (I saw a contingent of American cavalry every day during filming and they looked great!) Where are the Native Americans in the film? (They had hired Native reenactors)
One of my all-time heros is Francis Marion, The Swamp Fox, about whose life Mel Gibson's charecter, "The Ghost" is based on. Hollywood did a diservice in portraying both his life and the true story of the conflict in the south.
I heard rumors of a movie in the works about Ethan Allen and the Green Mountain Boys. Now if we could just get someone like Speilberg to direct it!!!!!!
 Happy Halloween,
Jim
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Major Fitz-William
Pathfinder
United Kingdom
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October 28 2004
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Posted - October 30 2004 : 3:59:19 PM
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| I agree with both of you. I wish it was made by a better director and showed the war as it was instead of Black and White. |
Let me alone: I have yet my legs and one arm. Tell the surgeon to make haste and his his instruments. I know I must lose my right arm, so the sooner it's off the better.
Horatio Nelson |
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
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May 19 2002
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Posted - October 31 2004 : 01:30:12 AM
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This in an excerpt from Partisans and Redcoats, by Walter Edgar, the George Washington Distinguished Professor of History at the University of South Carolina. It describes the actions of Major James Wemyss in the northeastern part of South Carolina.
"When Mrs. John Frierson refused to reveal where her husband was hiding, she and her four-year-old son were locked in her house, and it was set ablaze. Eventually they escaped when the heat from the fire drove the guards from the door. In an act of 'mere wantonness', pigs, chickens, 'and every living thing that could be caught, were thrown into the flames and burned to death'". Page 134.
"If these actions had been committed in the 1990's instead of the 1780's. Lord Cornwallis and a number of his subordinates, such as Banastre Tarleton and James Wemyss, would have been indicted by the International Tribunal at the Hague as war criminals." Page xvi.
There is much, much more.
One author speaking at the Cowpens battlefield was asked if the violence depicted in The Patriot was accurate. He said no, it was much worse.
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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November 27 2002
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Posted - October 31 2004 : 09:12:54 AM
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Fitz,
Thanks for posting that bit about Mrs. Frierson. I had read that somewhere, but couldn't recollect where so I could post it.
Question: the author who spoke about Cowpens... did he mean that the actual battle violence was much worse than the movie violence... or that the movie violence was much worse than the actual battle violence? |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
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Posted - October 31 2004 : 11:13:24 AM
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| He was referring to the violence of the 1780 to 1782 period in South Carolina. If memory serves me right, it was either John Buchanan (The Road To Guilford Courthouse),or Lawrence E. Babits (A Devil of a Whipping: The Battle of Cowpens), who said that. There was much more violence here than in any other part of the 13 States. It was mostly Loyalist versus Patriot, but the Loyalists were under the command of British officers, who seemed (at least to me) uncharacteristically violent. At Kings Mountain, Ferguson was the only native Brit there. All of those in his command were Americans. It was truly a civil war. The book, Partisans and Redcoats, is a good read and describes may incidents during that period. But there are lots of other books about that period in South Carolina history well worth reading, and all paint the same picture. |
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42ndOfficer
Pioneer
USA
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August 29 2004
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Posted - October 31 2004 : 2:57:23 PM
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Unfortunately,movies are meant to entertain not to educate.While I loved LOTM and credit it as the catalyst for sparking my interest in the French & Indian War(as with The Patriot)it is not historically accurate at all. Even director Michael Mann when told of certain inaccuracies in LOTM such as bearskin mitre caps and incorrect facing colors stated something to the effect of"this is a movie,if they want accuracy,they can buy a documentary."Of course,I don't see why they couldn't do both. The new movie The War That Made America 
www.thewarthatmadeamerica.com has gone on the premise that they are both a movie and an historical documentary have even abandoned their ideals.While speaking with one of their technical advisors who is a fellow grad student,I learned that in the scene in Pontiac's War where the smallpox infected blankets are given to the natives at Ft.Pitt there are a whole bunch given out because it "looked better" as opposed to the two blankets and one handkerchief that are written about in the "The Papers of Henry Bouquet."When I spoke with some of the extras who were involved,I was amazed that people were used who had no knowledge of the French & Indian War while people in the reenactment community in Pennsylvania were routinely scorned and ignored.I chuckled when one fellow told me that after he arrived on the set that he was "wondering where the teepees were" when he didn't see any. 
I am happy to say that when we filmed "George Washington's First War" www.paladincom.com we tried to make it as historically accurate as possible.Sure,we got complaints about reenactors being overweight or looking too old but overall,it was well done and we haven't received any complaints otherwise.(In my defense,I portrayed Col.Henry Bouquet). |
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lonewolf
Colonial Settler
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February 12 2004
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Posted - October 31 2004 : 11:21:46 PM
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I went to the casting individual in Rock Hill, S.C. and offered my services for free. I even had my own accurate period native dress, and firearm. Not my pow-wow regalia. The casting director was so damned arrogant that I left. He acted as if no Native Americans participated in the Revolution. My Shawnee ancestors definitely participated. They killed my white 4x great grandfather in this war. I knew this movie was going to be one more "Hollywood" crappy version of history. As an historian, I was not pleased at the portrayal of the British, as all "bad guys". Remember, the Americans were overthrowing the established government. Today, it would be treasonous, and the Armerican Army would be sent to put down the rebellion, as it did in the American Civil War, when South Carolina decided to fire upon a government fort. Banastre Tarleton was a bit of a rotten person, but he never burned civilians in a church. As far as I am concerned, this movie was far from history, and was strictly for entertainment of those too lazy to study history. Sad thing is, most moviegoers probably thought that it was an accurate portrayal of the war.
Ninety percent fiction, ten percent fact. What a sham!
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Ken Lonewolf |
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lonewolf
Colonial Settler
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February 12 2004
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Posted - October 31 2004 : 11:35:05 PM
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When Mrs. Frierson and hey son were locked in the house and it set ablaze, was Banastre Tarleton present at this event, or is this an event credited to the British Army in the South in general. Please enlighten me with accurate facts. I realize that the British were extremely frustrated with their inability to defeat the Southern partisans, and it was really nasty down here. I also know that Tarleton was an officer, but certainly not "an officer and a gentleman".
Awaiting your reply. |
Ken Lonewolf |
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
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May 19 2002
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Posted - November 01 2004 : 09:59:31 AM
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| At that particular event, Wemyss was in command. He generally commanded a portion of Tarleton's Legion, Loyalists (Tories) and Rangers he had raised from the local population. Wemyss, Tarleton, and Ferguson usually operated independently of each other. An example: When Wemyss learned that Sumter was camped on the Broad River, Wemyss went to Cornwallis with plans for an immediate attack. He led 40 of Tarleton's Legion and 100 mounted infantry. When the attack failed and Wemyss was captured, Cornwallis sent Tarleton to do what Wemyss had failed to do. Tarleton, in his turn, was soundly defeated at Blackstocks with 92 killed and 76 wounded. Ferguson was by this time dead. So it seems that Cornwallis used these commanders independently of each other. When Wemyss was captured he had on his person "a detailed list of the partisans he had executed and the homesteads he had destroyed". Sumter burned the list rather that let his men see it and hang Wemyss. |
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Two Kettles
Colonial Settler
USA
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August 01 2002
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Posted - November 01 2004 : 4:01:51 PM
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Grenouille wrote: "I heard rumors of a movie in the works about Ethan Allen and the Green Mountain Boys."
Just for the record, this movie was in preproduction a couple of years ago. The title was either THE REBEL or THE REBELS (NOT the John Jakes story.) It was going to star Jim Caviezal as Ethan Allen, and was going to be filmed in the Czech Republic. However, it apparently fell apart about the time Caviezal signed on to star in THE PASSION, and I think it's dead in the water.
Two Kettles |
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lonewolf
Colonial Settler
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February 12 2004
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Posted - November 01 2004 : 6:22:23 PM
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| Surely it doesn't cost as much to film here as in the Czech Republic. If they can't film the thing where it happened, I hope that they never complete it. |
Ken Lonewolf |
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42ndOfficer
Pioneer
USA
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August 29 2004
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Posted - November 01 2004 : 10:23:37 PM
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| It is still out there that NorthWest Passage will be remade. |
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Grenouille
Colonial Settler
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May 17 2002
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Posted - November 02 2004 : 12:06:30 AM
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Though the Patriot was filmed in S. Carolina where much of the southern conflict took place; it's just a coincidence. The real reason Columbia Pictures filmed there is because it is a "right to work state." More precisely, it is a state where unions have no control, and that's why the film company filmed there -- because they did not have to pay union scale wages to actors, workers, etc.,
etc. Many films are made in SC because of this fact.
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Jacy
Colonial Settler
United Kingdom
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August 12 2004
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Posted - November 02 2004 : 03:17:04 AM
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I agree that there may be a lot wrong with the Patriot. But just the way y'all have reacted says it all to me. It is a film-makers dream to provoke such reaction in their audience. Historical accuracy matters not when the crowd is drawn near.
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42ndOfficer
Pioneer
USA
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Posted - November 02 2004 : 03:34:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacy
I agree that there may be a lot wrong with the Patriot. But just the way y'all have reacted says it all to me. It is a film-makers dream to provoke such reaction in their audience. Historical accuracy matters not when the crowd is drawn near.
Bums on seats luv.
English director in "The Dead Pool." 1988 |
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Jacy
Colonial Settler
United Kingdom
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August 12 2004
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
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May 19 2002
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Posted - November 03 2004 : 08:30:32 AM
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| The Patriot could have been better, might have been a lot worse (read the original script)! But when it comes to the war in South Carolina, it's the best we have. When something better comes along, I will retire my DVD. |
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42ndNCO
Pioneer
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - November 03 2004 : 12:12:38 PM
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When the movie premiered in Pittsburgh, the Rev War group I was in at the time (the 8th Pennsylvania) went to 2 different theaters on the night it opened and "posted guard" outside the doors.
The theater managers were tickled to death to have us there to the point of letting us in and free snack bar stuff -- "anything these guys want, they can have" -- I believe was what the manager told his concession workers.
I think however, the best part was afterwards getting to talk with the other movie-goers about all the discrepancies in the film. Pointing out little oddities like using 24-pound naval carronades in the South Carolina swamps, etc.
Although we all have "stupid public" stories, I was generally impressed that many of those folks wanted to know what we thought about the film's accuracy. |
Humbly &c.,
Ensign mcmillan
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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Lt. General Darcy
Lost in the Wilderness
United Kingdom
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October 30 2004
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Posted - November 04 2004 : 1:27:52 PM
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| I agree with what Lonewolf it doesn't show the native americans at all, which it should of been! |
Every man is your enemy who speaks ill of your king amd country! |
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Bookworm
Colonial Militia
USA
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February 10 2004
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Posted - November 04 2004 : 9:47:35 PM
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Coincidentally, the Nov./Dec. issue of Muzzleloader includes an advertisement for a book entitled "Nothing But Blood and Slaughter: The Revolutionary War in the Carolinas: Vol. One (1771-1779)," written by Patrick O'Kelley and published by Blue House Tavern Press, 709 Kramer Road, Lillington, NC 27546. The ad also gives a website: www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
The title of the book is from a quote by General Nathanael Greene: "Nothing but blood and slaughter has prevailed among the Whigs and tories, and their inveteracy against each other must, if it continues, depopulate this part of the country." |
Bookworm
"I've gotten so fascinated with the eighteenth century, I'm going to stay there." -- David McCullough
"Nothing to it, brother." -- Barack Obama |
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Grenouille
Colonial Settler
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Posted - November 05 2004 : 3:50:46 PM
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When we filmed "The Patriot" the directors got some raw footage and showed it to the extras at the meal tent. The meal tent was a huge circus-like tent where the extras and crew ate their meals.
Anywho, one of the scenes they showed was Mel running through the woods with his rifle, on his way to ambush the Brits. My first thought was that it was just like the beginning of the "Last of the Mohicans." That's what my friend thought; standing in the back of the tent near the entrance. He said so, too, to some of his friends standing there, and he said when he turned around Mel G. was standing right in back of him!
Apparently, the directors wanted to get an audience idea of the footage they had, so far.
I won't forget having to wake up at 3:00 AM every morning to the sounds of "Sesame Street" and "Mr. Roger's Neighborhood" being played on the fife and drums. Having to walk over to makeup, and throwing cold, dirty water on my face every morning. I won't forget the looney Brits who lived down near the pond who caught and ate a water snake the first day in camp. By the time they left, they had empty water bottles purloined from the food tent scattered all around their tent, what a mess! I'll remember how we had to walk at least a couple miles everday out to
the film ste and walk back again. My poor, aching feet!
Also, a lot of the people who worked in "The Patriot" were also involved with the filming of LOM. The oriental guy who was in charge of the weapons dept. also worked in LOM. The assistant director worked in LOM, and some of the special effects and stunt men worked on LOM.
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42ndOfficer
Pioneer
USA
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August 29 2004
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Posted - November 12 2004 : 01:41:57 AM
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One of the Tech.Advisors for the new PBS movie told me that they are using a lot of the weapons and uniforms from LOTM. |
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
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July 31 2003
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Posted - November 24 2004 : 10:54:47 AM
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Not meaning to offend the good General Darcy but can you please tell us your age? Your typing/spelling skills do not match your elequence. I can understand the Brits not liking the way that they have been portrayed in American Independence films. (Little known fact, so as to not offend the English people Walt Disney made all of the hateful Redcoat enemy in "The Swamp Fox" TV show into Loyalists. It was cancelled when it was boycotted in Canada by Loyalist decendents) Those of us who re-enact the war in the southern colonies know of the animosity directed to Tarleton back in that period. He was no "hero" to us.. nor will he ever be he was a "Butcher". "The Patriot" played on that hatred and expanded it somewhat. Remember that Tarleton's men were all Loyalists not British Troops. Most of the Redcoats in our area were Organized Loyalist Militia. As Duncan says.."Things were done, none were spared."
Tarleton's men burned Presbyterian meeting houses, an iron works, individual houses, shot a young lad solely for running away on their approach, took two young lads prisoner and planned to hang them both for melting down pewter plates to make musket balls, held a reaping hook to a wife and mother's throat with the threat to "cut her dammned rebel head off" because she wouldn't tell where her husband was. If this was changed from 1780 to 1940 and the actors to Germans it sounds more like the Nazi invasion of Russia. And this was only one relatively small troop of Legion and Loyalist Militia in a very short time span. Think of what else was going on....
Yes historically we know it was the British that captured the Enigma machine, not the Americans, but as I've seen on the History Channel you Brits barely give any credit to the Polish codebreakers who led the way in breaking the German codes. It's all the "British Codebreakers at Bletchly Park"..All countries movies bend history to the best light and to sell tickets.
I worked for 4 months on "The Patriot" and we all hoped it would be a good movie. It is a "good" movie.. but it is not history.
I remember one of the head wranger's horses getting caught in the nearby quick-sand and dying early in production. I too was turned away at the "casting call" because I was too old and fat. I was later called in because I had my own "kit" (musket, cartridge box, bayonet, haversack, pants and shoes and had access to horses.) I played a Continental Soldier, Continental Artillery, a Continental surgeon, and a Redcoat. I remember telling one of the "know-nothing about history" extras about how the real battle of Cowpens was fought and having him say .. "Wow, why didn't they do it like that?"
Cold mornings before dawn standing on the battlefield huddled around a fire made of cork from the special effects dept's explosions trying to stay warm until the fog lifted and the frost was off the grass to begin shooting. Being pi$$ed off at Mel for messing up scenes just joking around, or because he couldn't get the horse to do what he wanted. "Ok, back to 1!....again"
I remember watching that cut of the movie in the mess tent and cheering..and Mel was much much bloodier in that scene than in the finished product, didnt you think?
Ok I'm rambling here.. anyway .. I have fond memories of the movie..but that's all it was .. a movie..sorry that it upset the Brits....Lots of it was realistic a lot of it was Hollywood.
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HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."
"Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."
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Jacy
Colonial Settler
United Kingdom
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August 12 2004
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Posted - November 25 2004 : 03:37:59 AM
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At the end of the day, this film would only be a 'bad movie' if it claimed to be historically accurate, it doesn't so it's not. It's a great piece of cinematography, or a good watch as others may say.
I think that as we have (Brits) such fab actors who turn their hand so well to portray evil aristocrats - we show off our acting in films like that.
Ken Branagh, Alan Rickman, Gary Oldman ... the list goes on! All would say that it's so much more fun to play a baddy and to quote Ken Branagh 'one can never be too hammy' either.
Jacy x |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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Posted - November 25 2004 : 2:27:00 PM
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quote:
Jacy noted: I think that as we have (Brits) such fab actors... Ken Branagh, Alan Rickman, Gary Oldman ... the list goes on! All would say that it's so much more fun to play a baddy and to quote Ken Branagh 'one can never be too hammy' either.
I agree Jacy, you guys do groom some the best of stage and screen. I really enjoyed Branagh's performance of the title role in Shakespeare's 'Henry the Fifth'.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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The Patriot is bad!!! LOTM is good!!!
