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Gadget Girl
Gatherer of Gathering Gadgets
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
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 Posted - April 02 2004 : 09:39:19 AM
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I think Elaine must live in a much more Oxygen-rich environment than I do!!! No matter how much I think and contemplate, that gray organ in my noggin is just not capable of functioning as clearly as hers does  ...or maybe I should get up at 2 AM and think  . If my brain were a car, I think it must be a Ford Pinto!...putt, putt putting along, never quits, but just can't keep up either! Elaine's would be like...oh...maybe one of those Formula whatever racing cars!!!
I agree with Elaine Ithi, you have some great questions and really think around an issue. These kind of discussions help all of us explore a subject!
GG  |
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Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
USA
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July 13 2002
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 Posted - April 02 2004 : 11:41:13 AM
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Lainey,
It is always great to read one of your posts. You are always very helpful and enlightening!!!
GG, don't you dare say that you are only a Pinto compared to Lainey being a racing car, because I don't want to think what that makes me. A moped maybe. 
Kay |
~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
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Gadget Girl
Gatherer of Gathering Gadgets
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - April 02 2004 : 11:50:10 AM
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Oh Come On Kay! Your at least up there near me, maybe a Ford Maverick or an AMC Gremlin??? 
GG |
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Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 13 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - April 02 2004 : 11:54:26 AM
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Oh Come On Kay! Your at least up there near me, maybe a Ford Maverick or an AMC Gremlin???
Ha ha ha  That is why I love you so much. You will tell a little white lie just to make me feel better. Although........ I'm not for sure if the Gremlin was meant as a compliment. 
Love,
kay |
~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
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Ithiliana
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 07 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - April 02 2004 : 11:10:04 PM
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yea, happy easter everyone! (although its a bit early)
lainey, thanks for your explanation... it makes purgatory very clear...
id love to write a long response, but unfortunately its 11pm and i gotta get up at 5 tomorrow morning cuz we're driving down to florida. ill definetly post when i get back.
enjoy your spring break! (for those of you who have one, anyway) |
Le Poisson Rouge Seudois du Chaos
Conspiracy of One |
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Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
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Posted - April 03 2004 : 03:39:22 AM
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Well, really I have to say 'thank you' for these opportunities to think about & discuss things important to me. It helps me tremendously ...
Ithiliana, see you back here then! |
"Fides et Ratio" |
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Ithiliana
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 07 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - April 11 2004 : 8:17:50 PM
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ok... having beaten the whole science vs. theology issue to death, let's turn somewhere else... :)
so far, we have been focused mostly on Christianity. Over the centuries since its beginning, every religion, Christianity included, has instinctively erected a wall that catches most criticism and scrutiny: if you talk to a priest, at least a good one, of any religion, they will have an answer or argument to every question you ask and every statement you make. every religion is impregnable... if it isn't, it doesn't survive. but now we have a funny situation: we have several major religions, and countless minor ones, all of which are completely bulletproof in their beliefs and explanations and dogmas. so who is right? Christ is not the first god to exist... the Egyptians had their own gods, and so did the romans and greeks, and the slavs had their idols, and the celts their druids and their gods and their mother goddess. now supposing Christ is the true god, and everyone who came before him was a fake, then where did they come from? if they didn't really exist, the only other explanation is that they were made up, right? now... why were they made up? because humankind pays a price for its ability to think: we need someone to believe in, someone who we can always rely on, who will always be there, who we can talk to no matter where we are, no matter when, someone to ask for things when there is no other way to get them, someone to reward you for things no one else is going to reward you for, someone to punish those people at the top of the heirarchy who get away with everything and are not going to be punished in this life, some way to explain the change of seasons, the rising of the sun, the failed hunt and flood and earthquake and epidemic... but perhaps most importantly of all, to reject the horrifying idea that when we die, we die, and we vanish forever, and are no more. so from the perspective of a christian, everyone before christ was made up. (and everyone afterwards, too...) but if mankind made all these gods up, why couldn't they have made this one up, too? why are zeus and hera and appollo and athena fake, but christ real? sure, they searched olympus and found nothing... but we have flown through the heavens and beyond, and where is christ? and if he dwells not in the heavens, but in Heaven, a place apart, isnt possible that the same metaphor be applied to mt. olympus? mayhap it was just another symbol of the 'above'?
another thing: christianity is splintered into many shards... yet these are all people who believe in the same god! they claim to be staunch believers, they are all for brotherhood, yet they oppose each other over the littlest things: wether or not icons should be allowed, whether the service should be in roman, etc... do they not believe in the same god? what do these things matter before god, if you are a good person? if he speaks all tongues, why does it matter if you pray in roman or vernacular? if he is everywhere, why does it matter if you worship at church or at home? who cares if you celebrate christmas the 25th or the 7th? (of january) and yet people have taken turns persecuting each other over these little things, in the name of that same god they all worship. but that's people, and we're talking about god... so... people have taken christianity and stretched it so far that if we take two opposing radical groups (i cant come up with any names... hmm.... correct me if im awfully wrong, but howabout catholics and anabaptists? [im not sure they still exist, but they did at one point...])the leap between the two... is it so much greater than that between one of them and... muslims, for example? they also believe in one god... yea, they have a different name for him... but god is god, and is it truly the place of a human to pin a name on him? as i recall, they even admit the existence of jesus christ... as a prophet. but they also have that same doctrine of basic goodness, do they not? yea, the detai |
Le Poisson Rouge Seudois du Chaos
Conspiracy of One |
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Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
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Posted - April 12 2004 : 4:30:01 PM
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quote:
if there is a god, then why can't people agree on him? and what makes one belief more valid than another?
Hi Ithiliana,
I haven't time to answer your questions or discuss these points to any degree of justification right now, but, a one word answer to the bottom line question; 'What makes one religion more valid?' is this -
Resurrection.
Had Christ suffered & died for us & nothing more; had there been no resurrection, there would be no difference one from another except claims. The Resurrection of Christ makes ALL the difference between claims & truth. God died. God resurrected. No other religion makes such a claim because no other religion is God's full & salvific eternal love for all He has created. He died. He rose. There is no other truth. Is this what you mean by lack of tolerance? Truth can not compromise herself to error.
I'll add more when possible. |
"Fides et Ratio" |
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Ithiliana
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 07 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - April 12 2004 : 10:03:54 PM
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er... im not sure i see how ressurection makes christ valid... i hope youll be able to explain that to me more fully :)
and by lack of tolerance, i mean "ooo, lets go around forcefully converting people to our religion or killing them if they refuse, because we're right and they're wrong and what we believe is the absolute truth and there can be no other."
actually, i have a nice quote, although im not sure how much respect you have for its source :)
its from Jesus Christ, Superstar, the rock opera...
quote:
What is truth? Is truth unchanging law?
We both have truths,
Are mine the same as yours?
yea... i know christianity is not the only religion to have done this, but it is perhaps one of the most prominent. it has no respect for the fact that other people may have their own beliefs. it is this mentality of 'what i believe is right and what you believe is wrong' which i find so disturbing. the hugenots (i cant spell) in france, the protestants and catholics taking turns killing each other off in england, the witch trials... all kinda remind me of what hitler did... so he killed all the jews... yea, he's one of the best-known examples... cuz he killed more people, cuz he had more people to kill and better technology to kill em with. but its not like the idea was original. how is that ANY DIFFERENT from what the church did at various points in history? the inquisition, alone, killed plenty of innocents (evil, twisted, devil worshipping heathens! *coughcough*)
so truth cannot compromise itself to error? what truth? ok, suppose Jesus/God does exist. what does that have to do with ANYTHING AT ALL? are people infallible? is their interpretaion of scripture... infallible? the pope is infallible... suuuure... except one pope tried to poison one of his cardinals for no good reason other than that he didn't like him. basically, the cardinals get together, elect a pope, and pretty much assume that god is now with him, because they, those 'infallible' cardinals, just went and elected him. and dont say that they were guided by god. he gave them the freedom of choice, did he not? they make their own descisions. so basically, no one here on earth that teaches all this dogma is really infallible. so how do you know its right? maybe christ meant something totally different, and is now sitting up in heaven wringing his hands in agony as he gazes upon the fine handiwork his children have wrought, after twisting his words to fit their puny minds and motives. just speculating, of course :) |
Le Poisson Rouge Seudois du Chaos
Conspiracy of One |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
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July 03 2002
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Posted - March 28 2006 : 7:50:47 PM
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Lainey doesn't need MY help on this topic. Especially that last post of hers. Pretty concisely clear to ME! With Easter coming up on us, it's even more relevent to state the difference and the Truth of it. No other religion has Christ as God with us in human form and the lamb of sacrifice for the new covenant. Moreover, it is Truth. How else could 12 diverse men suffer the agonies of their deaths (all but one anyway - I believe one died of natural causes or at least not as the result of violence) with complete conviction? How else could such men devote their entire lives to the singular purpose of spreading the good news, had they not witnessed their teacher die horribly, and then rise and walk with them again? Had he not risen, he'd be just another teacher or prophet. Unless one adopts the rationale that all 12 apostles were liars rather than witnesses to fact, one can't argue against the Truth of it. Human nature proves further the Truth of it. Liars do not suffer death to protect their lies. Perhaps the odd nutball might do so, but not 12 men gathered from dissimilar backgrounds all agreed to die for a lie or an agenda without the obvious Truth to it. Gather 12 anybodies together, spend three years teaching them any agenda other than this Truth, by however a charismatic man you might find, and then threaten to put them to death if they don't recant. Anybody believe such a group of 12 would all choose death for a lie? Or is it more likely all 12 would recant?
Choose as you will. Nobody comes to the Truth but that God leads them to it. That's one side. The other side is all can come to the Truth and be convicted by it. Took me forty years, but God has his own timeline.
Well said, as usual, Lainey. Sorry if I pitched my ha'penny into the discussion.
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - March 28 2006 : 8:06:24 PM
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Ithiliana,
Lainey is much more learned than I. However, let me take a stab at it from a simple (as in basic) man's faith.
You said, let's say Christ/God is true, so what? What difference does THAT make? Or words to that effect.
It makes ALL the difference of course. For, if God/Christ IS factual and true, then the entire bible is true, isn't it? And if it IS true, then there is a judgement. For us all.
You pointed out the horrors of the inquisition, the evil men do - even those professing to a faith, the rotten nature of the world, etc. And ask how can all that exist? Simple answer. The sin-nature of man. The existence of Satan. There is no evil a man won't commit. It's our nature. I no longer focus on anybody's sins or "alternative lifestyle" etc and judge them. Not my place. There is One who will judge us all. What I am taught is that I sin also, have many sins and transgressions of my own, and my sin-nature - as is any human's - such that I could just as well commit those sins of the next man. My sins are not less "evil" or offensive to God than another man's. Nor can that man NOT be saved and redeemed, as I have been. Even being saved and redeemed, I am still sinful. As are we all in some way. There is only one justification for our sin nature, and one redemption. The blood of the Lamb poured out for us in the new covenant. We have but to ask His forgiveness and open our heart to him. All our sins are forgiven. And the funny thing is, once you do that sincerely and from the heart, Christ begins to work within you. Change you. Make you more holy and use you to His purpose to save others. He wants us ALL to join him. It's fact.
I'm here to tell you it's fact. The changes and the workings within that Christ is willing to do if you let him. I'm one proof of such.
Not all will accept the redemption. But all are free to do so, and He want's nothing more than that all would do so.
How do "Christians" act in unChrist-like ways, you ask? They either weren't truly saved, or their sin nature drives them to.
But Lainey can probably say it all so much better and more intelligently. I'm just a simple faithful servant with a long way to go, and much to learn. |
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Obediah
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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August 16 2006
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Posted - August 22 2006 : 10:32:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by securemann
There's no atheist in a foxhole.
... which says a lot more about foxholes than about atheists (as the wise man once said). |
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joseph wiggs
Colonial Settler
USA
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January 12 2005
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Posted - January 24 2007 : 8:24:41 PM
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| You know you are an atheist when you find yourself in a foxhole, the enemy bombs are falling, and bullets are ripping into your torso and, your last thought is: "This is absolute bulls**t. |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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March 14 2005
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Posted - January 24 2007 : 8:46:13 PM
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| A very interesting thread, - and I think the original post was intended as humor with a point. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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joseph wiggs
Colonial Settler
USA
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January 12 2005
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Posted - January 25 2007 : 7:53:45 PM
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| Thank you my friend. Point well taken. |
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Obediah
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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August 16 2006
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Posted - January 26 2007 : 01:09:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
You know you are an atheist when you find yourself in a foxhole, the enemy bombs are falling, and bullets are ripping into your torso and, your last thought is: "This is absolute bulls**t.
And you're NOT an atheist when, in the same circumstances, your last though is: "This is absolute bulls**t, LORD." |
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joseph wiggs
Colonial Settler
USA
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January 12 2005
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Posted - January 26 2007 : 8:27:45 PM
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| Now this is funny!! I had to get off the floor to answer. You Sir are an original. |
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
December 18 2004
Status: offline
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Posted - February 25 2007 : 12:27:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by securemann
Pelting Christina with pet rocks? That is pet rock abuse in the extreme! The poor rocks might get hurt.
Let's sue her if it gets chipped! |
I live in my own little world - but that's okay, they know me here! |
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