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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
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 Posted - October 27 2004 : 7:25:46 PM
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Fascinating stuff, Ranger. All throughout Europe you find festivals and celebrations commemorating a bountiful harvest. For instance, in German culture you have a Harvest Festival and a Schlagfest (Slaughter Feast), these celebrations were carried over to the New World and to this day in my old Pittsburgh neighborhood of Troy Hill they still celebrate a Harvest Festival (Even though there hasn't been any farming done around there in almost 100 years). At the German-American club I belong to, the Teutonia Mannerchor, they also have a Schlagfest, which is a time of good eating indeed!!! I guess what I am saying, is that in spite of some people's search for racist overtones, the concept of celebrating or giving thanks was not invented here, but rather it was imported...
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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lonewolf
Colonial Settler
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February 12 2004
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Posted - October 29 2004 : 10:41:42 PM
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I don't hate anyone, just stating the way it was. Can you not digest history without shooting the messenger? It was brutal out here in the frontiers in the 1700's, guys. It wasn't a flag waving picnic. I don't hate the Iroquois, since my 4x great grandfather was Oneida, and his wife ( my 4x great grandmother) was Seneca. Two nations of the Iroquois! My 4x great grandfather was captured by the Seneca in 1781. They killed his mother and father and an infant, near present day Jeannette, Penna. It's history and it can't be changed. Should I hate the Seneca? I just got through dancing with these good people at the pow-wow in Monaca, Penna. Another of my 4x great-grandfathers (white) John Black was killed by my Shawnee ancestors at the Battle of Lochry's Run on the Ohio River at the border of Ohio and Indiana. We sided with the Iroquois this time (Revolution). Joseph Brant (Thayendanega of the Mohawk) was at the battle, as well as maybe two of the Girty brothers. Who should I hate here? I was invited to the Black re-union this summer and they requested that I wear my regalia. We had a very good time and the food was great: ate a little too much. Hey, heaven only knows how many indians John Black killed, before my ancestors killed him. War is hell. Always has been. Suspect it always will be. It never was a "game". People fall in the real wars, and they never get up. Not quite like re-enacting. I am one of John Black's descendants, since his grandaughter was my 2x great grandmother. Should I hate the entire white side of the Black family? Or the Iroquois side? How absurd! Or should I hate myself, since I have Shawnee blood in me?
My people tried to kill George Washington at Ft. Necessity in 1754, and again at the Monongahela in 1755. I married into the family of the Lee's of Virginia, which includes Washington. Should I hate my wife and daughters? My daughters carry the DNA of both sides of the aforementioned battles.
You need to learn to separate the telling of history from the attacking of the storyteller. You are re-enactors. Would you rather believe the nice drivel history that they teach you in the public schools, or would you rather know the truth? I think that you would rather attack me, the messenger, since you think that I am attacking all of you of European heritage. I am half white! One of my white ancestors came over on the same boat as William Penn. About half of the passengers died of smallpox and had to be thrown overboard. It was a very rough trip. No, I don't hate the boatbuilders. Or Brother Onas (William Penn). He treated the Indians fairly. His sons were rotten to the core. That's a fact, not my opinion!
One of my White ancestor's log cabin is now at Hannastown. My people burned the place. Should I hate the Klingensmith family, simply because our ancestors were looking down gun barrels at each other in the 1700's. It's history! It can't be changed. The Klingensmith family invites me to their family re-unions near Bushy Run. Many of the family are part Indian. Should we argue and kill each other? How wierd?
My Oneida chief's white name was John Peter Klingensmith, a white captive (eight years of age when captured). The only white chief the Oneidas have ever had.
Most of my white relatives are descended from early settlers. We all tried to kill each other at the time. We get along fine today. But we don't stick our heads in the sand as to family history. Why should I hate them. Some are mixed with Indians, as well. Happened a lot on the frontiers of western Penna. and eastern Ohio. That's just the way it was.
The Iroquois were our enemies during the French and Indian War, and allies in the Revolution. We fought the English in the F&I, and the American colonials in the Revolution. Many of my white ancestors fought in the Revolution. Some were with Washington at Valley Forge. The Oneida broke from t |
Ken Lonewolf |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - October 30 2004 : 09:19:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by lonewolf
I don't hate anyone, just stating the way it was. Can you not digest history without shooting the messenger?
But hatred is what I see coming through in your posts.
quote:
Should I hate the Seneca? We sided with the Iroquois this time (Revolution). Who should I hate here? Or should I hate myself, since I have Shawnee blood in me?
I am not suggesting that you hate anyone from your Native ancestry. I was merely making the point that all of your "historic facts" are very one-sided... against the white Europeans who came to settle in this country.
quote:
You need to learn to separate the telling of history from the attacking of the storyteller. I think that you would rather attack me, the messenger, since you think that I am attacking all of you of European heritage.
I don't think we are the ones doing the "attacking" here. You were the one who reopened a very pleasant thread from last year about our Thanksgiving traditions and began beating us up about it.
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I don't know about ya'll, or is that youse guys, up North?
Actually, it's just "you."
And now, I will say no more about this. Lonewolf, I truly hope that you are able to enjoy your turkey and cranberries and pumpkin pie without it all sticking in your throat, even if you don't celebrate Thanksgiving. And I am going to pull out one last quote from your post because it is the most important thing you said:
"Remember the guys and gals in Iraq. Remember all the military veterans of all of the wars, including the Indian warriors who fought to preserve their way of life."
I agree. |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
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Posted - October 30 2004 : 10:27:36 AM
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You know, human history is filled with aggression & conquest ... it's not all about European settling of America. I guess I should hate the Ethiopians because long ago they invaded my "roots" ... Sicily.
Thanksgiving is just that ... giving thanks for the good things. As Sarge says, a harvest festival. There were good relations between the Red & White man ... it wasn't all slaughter & smallpox.
I will continue to enjoy Thanksgiving as my favorite "Holiday." |
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
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May 19 2002
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Posted - October 31 2004 : 01:00:15 AM
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quote:
I guess I should hate the Ethiopians because long ago they invaded my "roots" ... Sicily.
Not to mention the Greeks, and Carthagenians (if you can find any). |
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Bookworm
Colonial Militia
USA
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February 10 2004
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Posted - October 31 2004 : 12:31:57 PM
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I made our Thanksgiving reservations a few days ago. Since our parents are gone, my brothers and I have started a new tradition: we meet at a family-style restaurant in Lancaster County for the Thanksgiving Day buffet. My brother and his wife who live in Snyder County, where we grew up, drive down here to Carlisle, then they, my husband, and I drive from here to the restaurant in Manheim, where we meet my brother and his wife who live just north of Philadelphia. We enjoy most of the traditional favorites we grew up with, and no one has to spend long hours in the kitchen. And I enjoy phoning in the reservations because, with the restaurant being smack in the middle of the Pennsylvania Dutch country, I don't have to spell my surname for them.
Note to Many Flags: I know the correct phrase is "Pennsylvania German (Deutsch)," but "Snyder County Dutch" is the way we of my local ethnic group have always referred to ourselves.
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Bookworm
"I've gotten so fascinated with the eighteenth century, I'm going to stay there." -- David McCullough
"Nothing to it, brother." -- Barack Obama |
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lonewolf
Colonial Settler
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
February 12 2004
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Posted - October 31 2004 : 10:02:45 PM
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| Who is removing posts from this site? Do you not want to read mine because it is more comfortable to not read them? Several of mine have hopped to ctberspace. |
Ken Lonewolf |
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Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 13 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - October 31 2004 : 10:32:39 PM
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Who is removing posts from this site? Do you not want to read mine because it is more comfortable to not read them? Several of mine have hopped to ctberspace.
Ken,
I don't see any of your posts removed. That is one of the things that I admire about this board. You are always able to express your opinions, as long as there is no vulgarity. Rich and the moderators would never remove your posts. You are just looking on the second page. The rest of your posts are on the first page.
Kay |
~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
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richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - November 01 2004 : 05:46:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by lonewolf
Who is removing posts from this site? Do you not want to read mine because it is more comfortable to not read them? Several of mine have hopped to ctberspace.
Settle down, lad. Look before you speak. |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 24 2007
Status: offline
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Posted - October 14 2011 : 4:32:51 PM
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It's time to revive this thread and liven it up with some pictures! Thanksgiving has always been my favorite Holiday, probably because: it occurs in the Fall ( my favorite season! ); it's a "real" American Holiday; and I was born the day before it, so have those "Birthday" associations with it! October of 1998 I took one of my "flying" vacations to visit historical sites in southern New England in a "circle tour" that took me from Boston through Mass., Conn., and R.I. and back. ( As you will see, the weather was BEAUTIFUL! ) Appropriate to this topic, these will only consider sites in and around Plymouth relating to Plymouth Plantations and the Pilgrims.
First, we have to get them there, so we'll start in the Harbor:
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Plymouth Rock is now a fraction of its original size and sheltered by this structure; likely it was never originally intended as the icon it has become, but rather just a convenient place to memorialize the Arrival nearby in 1620. A few steps away is moored the full-scale replica, Mayflower II:
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Nearby are two famous statues dedicated to Pilgrim leader William Bradford and Massasoit, Chief of the Wampanoags:
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The area of Plymouth where I felt closest to the Historical past was "Burial Hill", the Pilgrim Cemetery overlooking downtown and the harbor. It was the site of the 1621 fort, and early became a burying ground as the settlers sought to conceal their losses by burying them in a place relatively secure from "prying eyes".
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William Bradford's grave occupies a prominent spot among the other 1600's era graves:
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But it's all about Thanksgiving, right? If it happened as stated, local historians believe it most likely happened HERE, in this sheltered ravine; and in October, NOT November:
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 24 2007
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Posted - October 14 2011 : 5:33:20 PM
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There are several interesting Pilgrim-era houses and other related sites in and around Plymouth, beginning with the oldest surviving home, that of Richard Sparrow ( hopefully no relation to Captain "Jack"! ), ca. 1640; it's on the left of this structure, with its attached "new" half dating from approximately a century later:
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Another, this time from the 1700's ( I was as interested in the TREE as the house ):
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"Out in the country" near Duxbury are the home and gravesites of John and Priscilla Mullens Alden and the Pilgrims' "military advisor" Myles Standish ( known to his enemies as "Captain shrimpe"! ), immortalized by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow in his The Courtship of Myles Standish. Also nearby is a tall monument surmounted by a very large Pilgrim!
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Sandwich is at the entrance to Cape Cod ( which I didn't venture out on ) and has the typical New England "saltbox" ca. 1630's Hoxie House and the ca. 1650's Dexter Mill:
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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March 14 2005
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Posted - October 15 2011 : 04:42:55 AM
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| Some great pics James, - waaay back, when I lived in Mass. I visited Plymouth a number of times, always enjoyed it. Not sure if you went aboard the Mayflower, impressive, that it made it "loaded down" with people, all the way across the Atlantic Ocean. The captains cabin has a "slant" to the deck that almost hard to believe, truly like walking up or downhill. In fact Russell Means and a group of Indians occupied the Mayflower as a protest at one time. - That saltbox house is almost a copy of the one we lived in back in Maine, but with different, more up to date windows, and a deck. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 17 2005
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Posted - October 15 2011 : 08:32:22 AM
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| I love those pics!!! I only wish I could spend more time in New England. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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lane batot
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 15 2011
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Posted - October 15 2011 : 09:34:02 AM
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| !@#$%%^&*()!!((*&^%$#@!--contrapshuns!! Howdy folks--my first post ever here--tryin' ta figger the dang thing out--I ain't perzacktly up ta snuff with modern day technology! Don't even have wunna these here contraptions in mah house(or a cell phone, or cable T. V.--I DO have an indoor, functional toilet, though! Yee haw!)--my access to the computer world is on my work computer only(so my responses can be sporadic at times), and I have participated in other blogs, so I have some slight experience with the phenomenon. I looked you fellers up 'cause I was IN "Last Of The Mohicans" as a lowly Xtra--but boy-howdy I had me some fun! Got PLENTY of stories to relate if'n anybody is interested here.... In fact, I may be biased somewhat, but I think I had THE BEST Xtra part(for fun) to be in that movie--one of zee wild an crazee Coureur De Bois! Yass, mon amis, ah kood speak in az ridikooluss ah Franch axxint as inny udder Monty Python afficiondo! Okay, sorry to interrupt and completely change the subject here--but glad to stumble upon you guys on the VAST and perplexing world of the internet! looks like a swell(but not swollen) website!!! Sincerely, yer new pal, Lane Batot........ |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 24 2007
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Posted - October 15 2011 : 10:15:09 AM
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Welcome, Lane! I just scanned my copy of the Last of the Mohicans Casting List dated in May of 1991 and don't see your name listed among either the Courier Debois, Military Core, or Colonial Militia; did you maybe come in after that date? I was actively present for three months from before beginning filming in June through the Massacre scene in August; you can find my account among other Personal Accounts here onsite: http://www.mohicanpress.com/first_person_accounts.html. Here's the Forum listing for postings about the movie itself: http://www.mohicanpress.com/messageboard/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=9 You need to explore more of the parts of this HUGE site to get a full idea of just what's been covered here already - it can literally take DAYS of reading, but for confirmed "Mohicanites" like ourselves it can be FASCINATING! We'd LOVE to hear your tales of filming too!
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 24 2007
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Posted - October 15 2011 : 10:41:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Monadnock Guide
Not sure if you went aboard the Mayflower, impressive, that it made it "loaded down" with people, all the way across the Atlantic Ocean. The captains cabin has a "slant" to the deck that almost hard to believe, truly like walking up or downhill. In fact Russell Means and a group of Indians occupied the Mayflower as a protest at one time.
Thanks, MG!
I tend to try to AVOID things like "restorations" and "reconstructions" other than historic houses on my travels, since they often have hefty admission fees and are usually about as "authentic" as Fort William Henry, for example. ( And as a reenactor, I'm really not interested in watching other reenactors do "first-person" impressions in sometimes dubious "Historical" settings, so also somehow "missed" Plymouth Plantation. ) Since it's so small, I figured I could pretty well "see" the Mayflower II from the dockside:
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On the other hand, I should admit to "visiting" the equally questionable and definitely "touristy" Plymouth Wax Museum!:
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The first "tableau" represents the signing of the Mayflower Compact aboard ship; next is a "traditional" version of Thanksgiving; and last is a representation of the famous painting of Pilgrims going to Church.
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lane batot
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 15 2011
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Posted - October 15 2011 : 11:15:05 AM
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| Howdy back atch ya, James N.! (....and I apologize again fer gettin' off subject here again--maybe I'll figger out how to git on track eventually.....)--I doubt many of us Coureur de Bois(except Eric Sandgren, who actually SPOKE A LINE in the movie! Sacre' bleu! I just heard from old Eric the other day! He's still kicking too!)that were on ANY list, except perhaps Michael Mann's termination list! We drove him NUTS! We were all rather flippant and disorganized with little respect for European authority--TYPE CASTING, I'd guess you'd say! I did get plugged in rather last minute by the WONDERFUL local casting ladies Shirley Crumley(sigh....) and Theresa Phillips. That's because I wasn't perzackly enthused to be a soldier Xtra(English OR French!) I DID NOT want to have to wear one-a-them wool uniforms and drill in the summer heat! I worked in Asheville at the time, and saw adds in the paper and heard from some friends who got on as Xtras. Knowing the story VERY WELL already, I knew there was an "Indian Village Scene", and having several wolf-hybrids in those days(and being a stickler for animal accuracy as portrayed by Hollywood), I was going to try and get a couple of my animals on to be skulking in the background at the village. I was as terrible as any "casting dad"--but, unsuccessful, alas, on that count(their loss! it would have been a great, if minor background addition!)--BUT the local casting ladies wanted ME to be a soldier--I insisted on being an Indian, but politically correct as their Native casting was, I was refused("Put a lot of war paint on and stick me way in the back!" was my suggestion---nope--weren't going for it--I was just too dang caucasian-looking....) then later I got a call--"Do you know what a Coureur De Bois is?"; "Heck yeah I'll be a Coureur De Bois"!!! BEST XTRA GROUP to be on that set, as it turned out(well, at least for my personality!).......to be continued?...... |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 24 2007
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 14 2005
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Posted - October 15 2011 : 2:48:01 PM
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While I have no idea what the charge is to board the Mayflower, - THIS replica is as close as possible to the original.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayflower_II
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The construction of Mayflower II was conducted at the Upham shipyard in Brixham, Devonshire, England.[1] The ship's keel was laid on July 27, 1955, and ship architect William A. Baker was sent by Plimoth Plantation to advise the builders and view the progress of the ship's construction.[1]
The ship was replicated as accurately as possible, with carefully chosen English oak timbers, hand-forged nails, hand-sewn linen canvas sails, hemp cordage, and the Stockholm tar of the type used on 17th-century ships.[1] Based on analysis of the traditional colors and designs of English merchant ships illustrated in Dutch and English paintings, Mayflower II has the brown hull and the dark-red strapwork ornamentation of those 17th-century merchant ships. Carved into the stern of Mayflower II is a blossom of a hawthorne, or English mayflower. [1] In England, the skills of elderly traditional workmen were employed to build a vessel reflected Baker's detailed research and could sail the Atlantic as securely as the original ship.[1]
The Mayflower II was launched on September 22, 1956, a rainy day.[1] The ceremony was based on knowledge about christenings of 17th-century vessels. The ship was toasted from a gold loving cup that was afterward thrown into the water, and then quickly retrieved by an underwater diver, in the traditional manner.[1] The ship slid gracefully down the ways to enter Brixham harbor with a large splash. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 14 2005
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Posted - October 15 2011 : 4:32:38 PM
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I will continue to enjoy Thanksgiving as my favorite "Holiday."
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Mine too Rich, ... |
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Event: Thanksgiving!
