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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003
Status: offline
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 Posted - October 15 2003 : 9:43:50 PM
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China is now the 3rd nation to put a man into orbit. They plan to be on the moon within 5 years. Do you think we'll leave them to space or might this spark a new space-race? A race to Mars? A race to Jupiters moon Europa(where it is believed there may be life around geo-thermal vents on the floor of the moons liquid water oceans)? I for one would love to witness more space exploration, especially if America leads the way .
We don't have any frontiers left other than space and our ocean floors, it seems if we want people like the characters of Hawkeye, Chingachgook, even Magua to continue to be produced by our race we need challenges, BIG challenges. Overcoming problems, breaking barriers, mapping new territory, pushing the envelope, whatever you want to call it- without this adventure we're gonna grow stagnant and BORING. Any thoughts?
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
Status: offline
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 Posted - October 15 2003 : 10:13:05 PM
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Better you should worry about throw weight. Back during the space race, the reason we put men into orbit wasnt all about men in orbit. When you have enough throw weight to PUT a man in orbit, you have a big enough booster to send a nuke anywhere on the face of the globe. China is nuclear. But did not have the boosters to do that.
Now they do. Therein is the real problem. Guess Klinton letting them rip off our prohibited-for-export technology in return for baksheesh and contributions payed off for them. |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - October 15 2003 : 11:57:42 PM
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quote:
A race to Jupiters moon Europa
I read Arthur C. Clarke's "2010" also, good book.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003
Status: offline
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 Posted - October 16 2003 : 12:17:56 AM
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Actually, you can't blame this one on Clinton- they bought it from Russia. Russia has had bigger boosters than us since the 70's. The rocket they used is a modification of a 30 year old design, the Soyuz. China has had the technology for years. They don't want to blow us up, they're making far too much money off of us. Everybody wants to have nukes, nobody wants to use them, it's stupid, they hurt us all. We should worry about car bombs, suicide bombings, 9/11 type attacks more than nukes, they're least likely to be used against us. I know most Americans don't want to face up to facts but China is going to surpass us in many aspects in the next 50 years. China today is like the US in the thirties, a sleeping giant. They've got enough people to become the biggest economic engine in the world. Nobody stays top-dog forever, I only hope our fragile ego's can handle it. However, if we do blow it it'll be our own fault, we've blown so much time, money, and effort trying to stop others from doing things that we've stopped doing things ourselves. We should stop trying to protect our industry and start to develop some new ones. If we were smart we'd stop trying to stop other people from achieving and focus on what we're good at, innovation, R&D, pioneering new tech. Let the Chinese and Russians have the auto and steel industries, we've done that. It's not profitable anymore, anybody can do it. We should focus on the future, we don't need to live in the past, that's how they'll surpass us, mire us in stagnation.
At any rate I was trying to look at this in a positive light, mankind and all. Space exploration is a HUMAN endeavor. It's one of the few areas where we seem to cooperate better. Also, it's our suppression of space technology that caused the European Space Agency and others to develop their own. These others are much more willing to share tech with China and anybody else that wants it. In effect we made it much easier for other folks to get where they're at by trying to keep them out of the game in the first place.
Is ANYBODY for space exploration, or co-operating with other countries? It seems that since 9/11 everybody is so paranoid and insecure that they want to pretend that America is all powerful, that we don't need to co-exist or co-operate with the rest of the world. It's that kind of insular BS that alienates people and turns them against us. We've already burned any good will that the world had towards us after 9/11. Maybe a good international project, like space exploration, could do some good. Who am I fooling though, there's always gonna be enough "glass-half-empty" types around to nay-say anything that could be perceived as positive. Maybe we are doomed. Call me a fool but I'd like to see us cooperate and grow, I'd like my kids to grow up in a world that they can feel free to explore, not feel as if they have to cower in fear within our own borders due to our obstinant foreign policies.  |
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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - October 16 2003 : 12:39:54 AM
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Indeed Sarge, 2010 was excellent. NASA's findings in the last 15 years with the Galileo probe have only gone to back up a lot of what Mr. Clarke was saying. Jupiters giant mass seems to churn up Europa's core, making it molten, like our own. That in turn keeps the water in liquid state. They're developing a probe right now that's supposed to land on Europa and melt through the icy crust to get to the liquid ocean beneath. Straight out of the book. Did you know Mr. Clarke also developed the concept of communications satellites that sit in a geo-stationary orbit? One hell of a guy. Gotta love a guy with some imagination. |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - October 16 2003 : 03:07:53 AM
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Well, buddy, I wish I could have your simplistic, fed-to-you viewpoint about things. I lived through it. You didnt. I was there. I've been in on order-of-battle and military capabilities briefings.......and given them. You havent. But I guess I just don't know what I am talking about. Nor, I guess, do I remember the big scandal and hoopla of Chinese stealing nuclear, guidance and missle technology from us, getting caught, and there being links between the other scandal of Klinton getting baksheesh and campaign contributions from the Chinese......and his opening up of highly secure jobs to Chinese "scientists" with relatives still in China.
Nope. I remember none of that. It was in the papers....did you miss it.......or do you get all your facts from your liberal leaning teachers? By the way - I worked for Naval Research Labs out in California....took a high clearance to do that. We had more Cray computers than NSA did. Under me was a US born Amer-Chinese hired whose father was a (just) naturalized Chinese (born in China with relatives still over there) who was working in Los Alamos with the highest security clearance you can get as a scientist. Used to be, if you had relatives in China or Soviet Union you would NEVER get such a clearance.......but that was before Klinton. What happened two years after I left? It was in all the papers. You DO read the papers once in a while, don't you? It came out Chinese scientists and employees had been smuggling technology, blueprints, etc back to China of our most sensitive stuff from Los Alamos and other high tech labs.
I know - you don't understand what the point is of somebody HERE with relatives THERE working in most secure sensitive positions, do you. I'll explain it to you. Somebody comes to you, asks for sensitive information, and reminds you your mother and father are still back in the "home" country......and their health is dependent on your cooperation.
Yeah. I guess I don't know what I am talking about. And you know better. Sorry. My mistake. But I forgive you. I do. And I understand. Enough of a track record has been made that I should have realized no criticism of Klinton will get by YOU. |
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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 27 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - October 16 2003 : 06:49:19 AM
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| What great news! Between liberal stupidity ("All peoples can work together in space.") and conservative paranoia ("Don't let 'em hold the high ground.") we WILL have a space program again! |
Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - October 16 2003 : 2:17:25 PM
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Hey Bill-
Alright, all great points. I just have a hard time blaming everything on Klinton. So many liberal folks blame everything on Bush and so many conservative folks blame everything on Clinton- it just doesn't make sense that one man, liberal or conservative can be responsible for all of our problems. A lot of citizens had to put them in office and a lot of senators and congressmen had to back their policies, I'm just saying that you can't put everything on one man. It's the citizenry that ultimately decides which way we're gonna go. I was pissed as hell when China got most favored nation trading status, shouldn't have happened. Their human rights record is ridiculous. And yes, it happened under Klinton. Klinton sex scandal-very bad. He did a lot of crappy things, I don't back him up on a lot of things. Same with Bush, I like a lot of the things he's done and question others.
Yes, I remember the Los Alamos scandal. You're right, Clinton probably wasn't as hardcore on security as he should have been. I just don't think it would make sense for anyone to start a global nuclear war, it'd be the end of all of us. I'd be more worried about someone like Al-Qaeda, who doesn't have a geographical base, getting a nuke-"Sum of all Fears" like incident. I appreciate your viewpoint, sorry if my posts offend you, you sound a bit irked. I bow to your experience. I've had a far different life, thus far different viewpoints, no need to forgive me, I'm alright with that. I assure you I've meant nothing personal, just enjoy using the forum for debate. Hope we can continue our discussions peacefully and impersonally. I have the highest respect for military folks, it's the toughest job around. My dad was a combat engineer in Vietnam, wounded in service to our country. Of course I don't understand the intricacies of national security and the cold war, as you pointed out I'm too young. I do love this country, though. I'm the guy sitting around the keg with my friends with the unpopular view that we live in the greatest nation on this earth. I went to art school for five years so you can imagine the flaming liberal types that I've been exposed to. I was born on a farm, raised in a patriotic household, I try to stick more to the middle of the road than too far to either side, of course views on some issues stray one way or another. Again, apologies if I pissed you off.
I'm also a space-race/astronomy nut-look at the Apollo program as one of our nations greatest achievements, just hope we can get back into the game again |
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