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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003
Status: offline
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 Posted - October 15 2003 : 9:26:15 PM
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What do you folks think- good idea to spend our money rebuilding Iraq - or bad? Are we obliged to do it considering we contributed in some way to the current state of that nation or are we absolved from that duty because we took out a horrible dictator? Will helping Iraq do anything to cut down the recruitment of anti-american terrorists, or do we need to pull out to reduce that threat? I'd like some input from all you bright Mohicanlanders, short or long, positive or negative- what do y'all think?
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Dark Woods
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
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 Posted - November 07 2003 : 02:46:44 AM
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I dislike spending money in Iraq. I dislike spending it with a passion  !! Having said that, spending it is a regrettable necessity. We need to make an orderly transition to a post-occupation situation, and repairing some of the damage of war is needed to make that transition.
Seeking a "government in Iraq representative of the Iraqi people" that also "has policies agreeable to the US government" is to embrace a contradiction in terms.
The people and government of the US will benefit if we recognize the "limits of power" (There was a book by that name back in the 60s--I think that Eugene McCarthy that wrote it.) We have power to destroy military foes, but we lack the power to control the free will of other people.
It is to the benefit of the US to negotiate the best deal that we can with Iraq's neighbors, so that they help create and enforce political and military structures that keep Iraq from becoming a future threat. To some extent we can include Iraqis in the negotiations, but I find it hard to identify "acceptable" Iraqi groups with sufficient independent power to make them negotiating partners, rather than our dependent clients. For our negotiations to bear lasting fruit, we would need to recognize our limitations and be humble enough to truly listen to others. In the meantime, we will need to spend a lot of money, and lose many lives, to partially keep the lid on things in Iraq. I just hope that we start negotiations with Iraq's neighbors sooner, rather than later. |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - November 07 2003 : 09:04:35 AM
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Both of you guys raise some very good, and necessary, questions. The most important thing to remember, and I have mentioned this before, that the critical ingredients are patience and time. It was only 1787, almost six years after the cease fire, four years after the treaty which ended the American War of Independence and eleven years after the Declaration of Independance, before we had the form of government which serves us today. Now, we did have allies with us during the fight, France and Spain, but we did not have any help in forming our represenative republic afterwards.
I believe that we will be sucessful, if we stay the course. The final victory in this theater of operations will take the form of the Iraqi People choosing their own represenatives to serve them. It can be done, and it must be done, if stability is to take root in the region. We are giving the citizens of Iraq an opportunity which none of them ever had, they were always somebody else's wards or subjects, and I do believe that they will triumph as we did over 200 years ago.
As far as negotiating the best deal with Iraqs neigboors, well I think that a represenative republic or social democracy (depending on the Iraqis final choice) in that region is the best bargaining chip we could have. It sends a message to the outdated, exclusionary and racist quasi-theocracies of the region that "you're next, time to evolve into something civilized". Now before somebody steps up and says that it is not my place to judge what is civilized, let me state for the record that there is no such thing as 'moral equivilance'. That is a myth invented on U.S. college/university campus, to justify amoral behavior. It is school of thought which was spawned in the late 1960's, and has contributed to our shortcomings ever since (but that should be the subject of another thread). In a nutshell, ours is the most prosperous, most free and all around best country ever to exist, there is no 'moral equvilance' to a dictatorship like Hussein, a religious monarchy like Saudi Arabia or any of the experiments in communism (look at Cuba, here's a country surrounded by water, and nobody has fish to sell).
Once the Iraqi People see that they will determine their own destiny, and enjoy the political/market freedoms with that, they will also stand with us and the British in our global fight against terrorism. Free and tolerant countries have a tendency to 'hang out' together. A therory of mine, maybe, but one that stems from logical conclusions.
Now, I am familiar with Mr. McCarthy's work, but it is a bit dated in both research and conclusions. He published it at a time when the U.S. was still involved in creating 'puppet dictatorships' (ala Central America), in order to ensure we had military bases worldwide to stem the Soviet inspired expansion of communist dictatorships. Was it the right thing to do? I think that history will judge that it was a necessary evil. Like cancer treatments, they make the patient sick, and do harm to the body, but the alternative is much worse. The course we are on now, is a much better 'treatment', and one that we only learned through our own growth as a people.
President Bush is a smart man, lets face facts, the U.S. Air Force (or its reserve/guard components) generally does not strap a moron into the cockpit of a supersonic fighter jet. The resonsibility is too great, no matter how 'connected' a young officer may be. He has surrounded himself with some of the best people in the business, like NSA Rice, General Powell, and Secretary Rumsfeld (another old fighter-jock). Now all of these folks do not always agree with one another on how to carry the mission out (this is a good thing, since it forces debate and thought), but they do agree on the mission goals.
In conclusion, let me say that there is an 'exit strategy', that is total victory and the determination of the Iraqi People. To do less, will cause us to experience |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - November 07 2003 : 09:21:51 AM
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P.S. - And before somebody comes into the light and says, "But what about the Vice-President and Haliburton?", let me explain to you that the work needed to get those oil wells back in service (and there by give the Iraqi People the money necessary to fuel their own economic engine) requires specialists in equipment, training and doctrine. There are only two companies in the world that are capable of handling all aspects of the operation. One is Haliburton (an American owned company) and the other is based in France (something again you will not hear on CNN). Which would you want?
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - December 08 2003 : 8:02:17 PM
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| These days I'm thinking that it's a good idea to invest in Iraq's future. If we can get to a point where Iraq can become a representative democracy I think we could find ourselves with a potentially powerful and grateful ally in an area of the world where one is sorely needed. It will take a long time. It will be painful for both sides. In the end, though, we may find we've contributed to the liberation of millions of people. Right now it seems as if it could go either way. If we invest the time and manpower necessary we may be able to pull this off. My only worry is that the administration will look at the polls that say we need to pull out of Iraq and falter. They may become so worried about public opinion at this politically critical pre-election time that they rush out prematurely leaving the struggling newborn government at the hands of organized crime and terrorists. Anybody got any thoughts? |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - December 09 2003 : 05:30:03 AM
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We need to stay the course - no matter - and complete the mission. Instituting a solid government is a necessity. Until a much freer Iraqi public is able to govern themselves - and POLICE themselves [strong military!] - we cannot leave. To do so will create another pre-2002 Afghanistan.
I don't like to see our boys dying as they are, but to blink now is a major step backward. See it through! |
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securemann
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 08 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - December 09 2003 : 9:08:19 PM
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| I honestly think we are stuck.Will it take a long time? Very long.As the death toll mounts,folks here will get very upset.Guerrilla warfare goes a long time.Even if we did set something up over there and left,do you honestly believe it will last? Peace with honor? I heard that phrase before.I'm sorry but I smell another Vietnam here.We should pull out and leave it to other countries now.No chance.No way.We are in it and really don't know who the enemy is.Just like Vietnam,will they smile at you or kill you.No WMD as of yet.Still waiting.Just don't like the whole deal.Ok folks,I'm ready,commence firing. |
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 14 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - December 09 2003 : 9:28:38 PM
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| I caught a bit of of the story on "Nightline" last night where a journalist was given access to the guerillas and went with them on some rocket and mortar attacks with a camera. Some say they appear to be organized, and have outside access to weapons and funding. But it was also suggested that the majority of these guerrilla fighters were former Iraqi officers loyal to Saddam. This suggests that they are not growing in numbers, and eventually they will all be eliminated. Also it appears the guerillas are being squeezed out of Baghdad and into the country to the north. They may have plenty of weapons and funding, but their numbers are being reduced with each attack. It's only a matter of time before they will be no more. |
YMHS,
Connecticut•Ranger
Thomas Thacher
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - December 11 2003 : 3:48:24 PM
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quote:
Also it appears the guerillas are being squeezed out of Baghdad and into the country to the north. They may have plenty of weapons and funding, but their numbers are being reduced with each attack. It's only a matter of time before they will be no more.
You are 100% right on target, Ranger (nothing new here). The one thing people fail to realize is that alot of those clowns our troops are 'smokin' over there are imports, not locals. They originally slithered across from Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. This is good, because I would rather have the 'Feta Cheese Saddam', Al Qadia, or other Wahabbist Wacko Type baited over there against armed and trained U.S. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen & Marines, then to have them here (in the U.S.) causing problems. Those animals are pretty brave when it comes to killing innocent women and children, they pretty much get their a$$ handed to them when they square-off against our nation's warrior caste. So a message to the Militant Iman's of the Wahabbist Faith, "Go ahead and keep sending them, our troops can use the live-fire training."
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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