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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
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 Posted - October 05 2003 : 7:10:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill R
... Guess it's the year to return and leave. Just as pissed off as the last time I tried to be part of this place. ...
Bye all.
Bill, get your sorry ass back here, son. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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Adele
The Huggy Merchant
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - October 06 2003 : 05:30:11 AM
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Grrrrrr.....
It is way too easy to read what we want to read and allow our initial emotional reaction to dictate our response. That is the problem. If I had a penny for every time I have had to bite my tongue, delete my original response, or wait 24 hours before making a response...I would be a very happy woman right now! I actually agree with Ilse to a certain extent, and it has nothing to do with being European, or not understanding the US reaction to 9/11 (although the points are well-taken Scott), it has simply to do with the basic rules of debate. One's argument or position on an issue is considerably weakened when passion or emotion is allowed to take over, because the facts, logic and reason of your debate are lost under the expression of feeling. It can intimidate or alienate other debaters, which does not make for a very positive discussion arena. 'Take the worthless raghead out and shoot him' or sentiments like it, are not really useful or informative comments, in my opinion. However, a response starting with 'He should have a military tribunal because....' would make worthy reading I think.
Emotion and passion have a place for all of us, they are the driving force to fight for what we believe is right, but they really need to be kept in hand when debating one's cause. Everytime there is an emotional outburst of this type here, the chances decrease of having other board regulars join in a discussion, and that is so sad. People have stated that they don't join in because it is too stressful, or because they are afraid they will be made to look foolish. And I can understand that, because some of the debates here become so aggressive. They key to making your point well, is not how forcefully it is expressed, but how calmly and rationally you respond, how provocative are your questions, how well do you use facts to back up your argument.
I know Ilse well, and I admire her blunt no-nonsense stance, and I like her sense of humour, and in a way, reactions to her post have made her case! Nobody asked what prompted her reaction, or asked her to clarify why she thought the debate had gone off topic, there were just an instant emotional reaction, and a lot of assumptions that this had to do with censorship, or difference of opinion. I think when she did clarify...she had a good point.
And Bill, who I met at G2K, and have always had a great affection for, I wish would return. As I said before, I have learned a lot from him, and enjoyed his posts. I think that he has been trying really hard to keep a grip on his emotions whilst discussing topics he obviously feels very passionately about, and I do respect that.
Finally, I have to say, that I really REALLY hate it when a debate here is turned into a you vs us scenario. I think I made that feeling clear in an early post! We all have cultural differences, regardless of where we were born and raised and we should be enjoying those differences and using the opportunity to learn. It is way too easy to say, I am American so I think/feel/react like this and you are European so you think/feel/react like this. It's ridiculous! Ilse and I rarely agree on ANY serious issue we debate! But we listen and learn. I am sure that when Rich asked people to be moderators for certain forums, he picked people who would be fair, and as yet, I have not seen any moderator abuse their role, including this particular issue.
Are we having any fun yet?! 
HM
PS Ilse, get back here, we need to have some serious debate about hats.... |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - October 06 2003 : 06:32:18 AM
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Excellent, well thought out post, Adele [yeah, Scott, your's was good, too!] - thank you for taking the time to post it.
I wish it could be as you describe, but it is not something everyone is capable of, apparently. I just desire that the "leaving syndrome" could be set aside ... |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - October 06 2003 : 10:18:19 AM
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| Okay okay. I haven't read this entire thread backward - not sure I dare - but point taken. I reacted. Musta been the testosterone thing. I never understood why testosterone was a BAD thing. Especially in my older years when I have less of the damn stuff than ever before in my life! I assumed. As any Army sargeant will tell you - assuming makes an as* outta you and me. Never assume. Maybe I over-reacted. Hope so. Ilse and I seemed to be getting along so well up to that point. Apologies. Partly my reaction was based on proximity of her post to mine, and my very emotional in the gut feelings about somebody trying to assassinate his own officers in the field, in combat, before the war even starts, AND being a paratrooper who did that to boot. Lowest form of life there is, I think. But anyway........apologies to Ilse if I over-reacted. |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - October 06 2003 : 6:43:27 PM
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Good to have you back, bud. You'll never jump alone into a hot DZ...
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - October 07 2003 : 07:28:29 AM
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| Wooohoooo!! Bill's back. Thank you, Bill...waiting to learn even more from ya and to die laughing at your hilarious posts. |
Theresa |
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Ilse
The Dutch Trader
Netherlands
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - October 09 2003 : 09:18:11 AM
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Hi Bill,
No problem. I took some time off to cool down, and, as was pointed out, I too overreacted. Wrong post at the wrong time. My apologies to you too. Yes, we were getting along better and I like to see that continue!
Scott,
You really wrote a very, very interesting, clarifying post, and I like to address those issues. However, when I saw it last night it was after midnight (bad time for posting), now I'm at work, so I'll wait till I'm home tonight, with a good dictionary in reach :) |
OH HAI!
Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 03 2002
Status: offline
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richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - October 09 2003 : 1:09:00 PM
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Ah, I love when things work out like that. It's a weird thing - two long-time friends of mine at odds - to be sitting there, dumbstruck [not that that's unusual!], in the middle. Eats me up.
Good to see you talking! |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
 Posted - October 11 2003 : 11:46:11 AM
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I really should have posted this much earlier ... I have no excuses.
While I am most happy that this latest episode seems to have passed, I just wanted to add that I think it grossly unfair for any one of us to judge any other one individual who posts here based on their National origin. In Ilse's case, her home country, just for the record, has been one of our most steadfast allies in this Iraq War. I know, from knowing her, that Ilse loves the American people & is in no way a communist.
We all need to temper our emotions and avoid - at all costs - unwarranted attacks on each other of a personal nature. It can't work that way.This Lions Den forum is for members to voice their opinions on a myriad of issues, regardless of the side chosen. It should be a place where folks can, as Adele so eloquently stated, debate reasonably without resorting to temper tantrums & snide pot shots.
There is no doubt in my mind that we are all more than capable of accomplishing that. No one can post here - on these types of heated issues - and expect 100% agreement.
Each person here holds a special place in my heart, none more so than "Dutchie" Ilse who has been inhabiting these parts since nearly the beginning ...
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