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Theresa
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May 17 2002
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 Posted - July 22 2003 : 08:11:23 AM
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We, in our church, do not restrict children of any age from receiving Holy Communion. In my opinion, if we teach them the story from Palm Sunday to Easter, how can we not include teaching them the meaning of the Lord's Supper? I don't believe that Jesus would want us to deny children this priveledge until they reach a certain age. That's my thinking anyway.
As to whether I believe Christ is physically present in the bread and wine....hmmmm. When the pastor says, "This is my body, take, eat, do this in remembrance of me...." at that moment, to me, I believe Christ is the bread and wine. Does that make sense?
Do I believe there is a union with God through the Lord's Supper? Absolutely.
Is the celebration of the Lord's Supper a Sacrament? Yes, as is baptism.
On a personal note...one of the ways I have served my church in the past has been to prepare Holy Communion for Sunday services as well as for Christmas Eve services. Many times while in the sacristy preparing this meal, it was just God and me, alone, together. This time was also very powerful...in the quiet as my hands took the elements and placed them on the altar. He takes every opportunity to be with me and all I have to do is be open to it.
Lainey, whether any of us or none of us come to agreement on any, all, or none of these issues, you have certainly made me do some serious searching into my own beliefs. I thank you for that. |
Theresa |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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Posted - July 22 2003 : 10:09:11 AM
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| Lainey, thanks for you questions! I am going to work on organizing my thoughts and responses while I work this morning, and will try to post my answers during my lunch hour. |
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Lainey
TGAT
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Posted - July 22 2003 : 10:57:33 AM
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Theresa,
"And one of the Scribes came forward who had heard them disputing together; and seeing that he had answered them well, he asked him which was the first commandment of all. But Jesus answered him, "The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one God; and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment. And the second is like it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is no commandment greater than these." And the Scribe said to him, "Well answered, Master, thou hast said truly that he is one and that there is no other besides him; and that he should be loved with thy whole heart, and with thy whole understanding, and with thy whole soul, and with one's whole strength; and that to love one's neighbor as oneself is a greater thing than all holocausts and sacrifices." And Jesus, seeing that he had answered wisely, said to him, "Thou art not far from the kingdom of God." And no one after that ventured to ask him questions."
Very well said, Theresa. You've professed a belief & a love of God in the Eucharist. Contemplation of the Eucharistic Mysteries might be a thing God is calling you to, yes?
I am privileged to even have these discussions with everyone.
WW, I look forward to hearing your thoughts! Thank you ... |
"Fides et Ratio" |
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Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
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May 17 2002
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Posted - July 22 2003 : 12:20:20 PM
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...can we safely say this a place where two or more are gathered in His name?
Is contemplation of the Eucharist Mysteries something God is calling me to? Quite possibly, Elaine. I believe we should never quit searching when the opportunity comes along to learn something....and I do think that we are all teachers, in a way, and can certainly learn from each other. You know, it's kinda like being able to solve a math problem in more than one way but yet the answer is the same. That may be a poor analogy but my mind sometimes understands explanation in that way.
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Theresa |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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November 27 2002
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Posted - July 22 2003 : 1:12:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Theresa
...can we safely say this a place where two or more are gathered in His name?
I would say a hearty "Yes" to that, my friend! |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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Posted - July 22 2003 : 1:20:18 PM
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Oh dear… I really am not very good at this… but here goes.
Lainey, I know that you are a very, very devout Catholic, and as I have said before, I really appreciate that fact, and none of my answers to your questions are meant to undermine your beliefs. I sincerely hope that I will not come across that way, for I do not mean to. I am pleased that you are willing to ask these questions and to listen to our answers.
Please let me preface this by saying that I am most definitely not a Theologian or student of Religion, or even of the Bible. Yes, I do read the Bible, and believe it to be the Divinely inspired Word of God. And I cannot speak for each and every Protestant denomination. All I have to go on is what I have been taught along my pathway.
You asked: “Children & non-believers are not invited to partake in the communion service then, but all professing Christians are otherwise invited? Why is that?”
I’m sure you already know that not all Protestant denominations fall under the category of “Evangelical.” I cannot speak for those. I can only tell you what the policy of the church (which is Evangelical) I now attend is. Communion is highly symbolic. We do not believe that the grape juice or wine becomes the actual blood of Christ, or that the little pieces of cracker we use become the actual flesh of Christ. We know full well that we are only consuming juice and crackers.
However. When I say that it is highly symbolic, I mean that our Communion service (which is done the first Sunday of every month, plus Christmas and Easter) is very Holy, very sincere, very somber, full of prayer, and is intensely personal. Theresa has already given us what is in her heart regarding Communion. I feel the same way. I am going to open my soul here… without embarrassment. As the elements are being passed out to the congregation I sit in silent prayer thanking God for sending His Son to save me, asking His forgiveness for my sins, and asking His help as I continue with my quest to walk with Jesus. As the congregation takes the “bread” simultaneously, I close my eyes and reflect upon the Last Supper. As the congregation takes the “cup” simultaneously, I close my eyes and think of Jesus’ blood that was shed upon the cross for me. Intensely personal!!
So, to try to answer your question: I think it is felt that if they do not know Christ, as a professed believer, the Communion service would mean nothing to them. And that would take away the highly symbolic, Holy nature of the service. It would become just another monkey-see, monkey-do act with no meaning.
Yes, I suppose some call it arrogant and offensive. But, some say the same about the Catholic Church… which, if I understand it correctly, does not allow children who haven’t gone through Catechism, or non-Catholics to participate in Holy Communion. (Please correct me if I am wrong on that.)
“Do Evangelicals elevate the communion service over and above scripture?” I don’t believe so. Scripture is the Divine Word of God, our set of rules to live by, if you will. It is to be believed and followed. And so we take Communion, as Jesus taught us to do by His example at the Last Supper, as put down in Scripture... and as you do in the Catholic Church.
Well… that does it for my brain today! I’m “zizzed”!!
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securemann
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Posted - July 22 2003 : 2:43:58 PM
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| Very good subject.Once I get my brain together,I'll jump in.God Bless everyone here! |
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securemann
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Posted - July 22 2003 : 7:30:06 PM
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| O.K.,I just had some coffee to jump start the old grey matter.On the Eucharist: a figurative interpretation is impossible according to the rules of language.If a figure of speech has a definite meaning,we cannot use it in a new sense,merely for the purposes of controversy.To eat one's flesh was a familiar figure among the Jews of old,as it is a common figure among the Arabs today,but it always means to do a person some serious injury,especially by calumny or by false accusation.To interpret the phrase figuratively then would be to make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating him,which would reduce the whole passage to utter nonsense.So Jesus means what he says and did not talk figuratively here.Justin Martyr wrote around 150A.D.:"We call this food Eucharist,and no one else is permitted to partake of it,except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration and is thereby living as Christ has enjoined.For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these;but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation,so too,as we have been taught,the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him,and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished,is both the flesh and blood of that incarnated Jesus". |
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securemann
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Posted - July 22 2003 : 7:39:30 PM
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| Notice also in that statement by Justin Martyr about the washing which is for the forgiveness of sins and for regeneration.Here you have both the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and Baptism regeneration which forgives sins.The good old Church Fathers,way back when and closer to the apostolic era.They knew what was Orthodox teaching. |
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securemann
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Posted - July 22 2003 : 7:49:43 PM
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| Wow this coffee worked good- On the issue of children not receiving the Eucharist until the age of reason,that is a Latin rite rule.Our brothers and sisters in the Eastern Catholic Church which is in union with Rome gives the Eucharist to infants on a spoon right after baptism.Then they immediately receive Confirmation also.Eastern Orthodox does the same thing but they are not in union with Rome.I kid around with the Eastern rite Catholics and say that they got robbed of a Communion and Confirmation party.It was already over when they were just infants.LOL! |
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
USA
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October 14 2002
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Posted - July 23 2003 : 01:22:17 AM
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quote:
Deuterocanonical Scripture, CT, was previously called "baggage" by you. Are you aware that these books were quoted by Christ Himself? Was Christ quoting baggage? Have you any grasp of the OT books - the differing books of various Jewish sects? Do you know that 2 out of every 3 scriptural references spoken by Christ were references to the Septuagint which contained the Deuterocanonical books? Be careful ... an account for every word spoken will be given.
Lainy, this is simply not true.
"Are you aware that these books were quoted by Christ Himself? Was Christ quoting baggage?"
Christ nor any of the writers of the NT quoted the Apocrypha as the authoritative Word of God.
"Do you know that 2 out of every 3 scriptural references spoken by Christ were references to the Septuagint which contained the Deuterocanonical books?"
There is absolutely no evidence at all that the Septuagint of the 1st Century A.D. contained the Apocrypha. There is no clear answer as to what the first century A.D. Septuagint contained. The fourth or fifth century A.D. Greek manuscripts, in which the Apocrypha appears, have no consistency with the number of books or their order. The Hebrew canon which Jesus read from in the synagogues did not contain the Apocrypha. The New Testament writers may allude to the Apocrypha, but they never quoted from it as the Word of God or gave the slightest hint that any of the books are inspired. The Apocrypha clearly contradicts the inspired Word of God. If the Septuagint in the first century A.D. contained these books, which is by no means a proven fact, Jesus and His disciples completely ignored them. Origen, Athanasius and Jerome denied the canonicity of these books. Jerome refused to include the Apocrypha in his translation of the OT. It cannot be overemphasized that the Rome itself did not officially declare these books deuterocanonical until the Council of Trent. The acceptance of certain books in the Apocrypha as deuterocanonical by Rome was to a great extent a reaction to the Protestant Reformation. By accepting these books, Rome legitimized their reference to them in doctrinal matters.
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YMHS,
Connecticut•Ranger
Thomas Thacher
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Lainey
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Posted - July 23 2003 : 10:42:47 AM
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CT, I can fully appreciate why you hold this view. I can. Nonetheless, you are in error. The only way I can make you see what is NOT apocrypha before God, was NOT apocrypha before Christ & His Apostles, was NOT apocrypha before the majority of Jews of the era (and prior to the Jewish Council of Javneh A.D. 90), & was NOT apocrypha before the Church (EVER) is to dismantle your misperception of inspired Scripture & hold out the Greek Septuagint for your examination. In doing this, do you promise to examine this in "good faith" & in "spirit of truth"? Will you, if it is proven to you that the Greek Septuagint was recognized as inspired Scripture by Christ & His Apostles admit it freely & denounce Luther's tampering of Sacred Scripture (yet another "rotten fruit" of a "bad tree") & "throw overboard" this pottage of fallacies? All in the spirit of truth?
The same Scripture I quoted to you on the Eucharist applies here.
"And Jesus answered and said to them, 'Is not this why you err - because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven. But as to the dead rising, have you not read in the book of Moses about the Bush, how God spoke to him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are therefore entirely wrong."
How many OT books were recognized as inspired Scripture by the Sadducees?
How many OT books were recognized as inspired Scripture by the Pharisees?
Which books contain accounts of the Feast of Hanukkah?
On what occasion did Christ say?; "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came - and the Scripture cannot be broken - what about the One Whom the Father set apart as His very own and sent into the world?"
Who did He reference as being "set apart" as a prophetic image of Himself?
Who said this?: "What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume (ie. canon), proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I wasn't relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us."
Do you hold the opinions of individual Church Fathers to be infallible? We Catholics do not.
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"Fides et Ratio" |
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securemann
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Posted - July 23 2003 : 10:55:56 AM
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| Your are wrong on this one CT.The Council of Rome in 382A.D.under the leadership of Pope Damasus declared the Canon of Scripture which included ALL the deuterocanonical books.He ordered ST.Jerome to make the translation which became the Latin Vulgate and was the only offical Bible for Christian usage from 400A.D-till the revolt.The Council of Trent was reacting to the revolters who wanted to throw out the deuteros.The deuteros was always considered canon.It is true that Jerome did not agree about the deuteros but he submitted to the Pope who has the last word and Jerome placed them in the Latin Vulgate. |
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Lainey
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Posted - July 23 2003 : 11:00:05 AM
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WW, thank you for that! Don't apologize for stating what you believe - I know it's not meant to undermine anything. If I thought your views would mirror my own I think I'd be calling you Catholic.
"Yes, I suppose some call it arrogant and offensive. But, some say the same about the Catholic Church… which, if I understand it correctly, does not allow children who haven’t gone through Catechism, or non-Catholics to participate in Holy Communion."
So you know - I do NOT think it is arrogant or offensive to restrict or prohibit participation in religious rites to only those who adhere in good faith & in the spirit of truth to the religion, its doctrines, its rites, etc. I was noting that some Evangelicals (and many others) claim to be "offended" by "arrogant" Catholic prohibition or exclusion even though they also exclude & prohibit (as they should).
Your understanding of Catholic prohibition is correct; a child (or adult) must first be baptized & catechized, cleansed so they might approach the Body of Christ "worthily" as it is written in Scripture.
Can I comment or question further (in good faith)? |
"Fides et Ratio" |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - July 23 2003 : 11:09:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lainey
Can I comment or question further (in good faith)?
Of course you may! But I may not have the answer...
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securemann
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Posted - July 23 2003 : 4:09:41 PM
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| Here's the problem in a nut shell:"It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins".2 Maccabees 12:46 -a reference to purgatory.Luther saw this and tossed it out! It didn't square with his theology.This book was always considered in the canon for well over 1000 years until Father Luther said it is not so. |
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Lainey
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Posted - July 23 2003 : 11:55:53 PM
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"How can he who calls Scripture 'God-inspired,' because it was written through the inspiration of the Spirit, use the language of one who insults and belittles Him?"
St. Basil/On the Spirit
What council of men defined the OT canon the Protestant Fathers adopted nearly 1500 years after Christ's public ministry?
On what authority did this council of men close the books, if indeed it can be said it was closed?
Is the Book of Revelations (Apocalypse) inspired Scripture?
Does NT referencing an OT Book prove its canonicity, or does NT omission of it disprove its canonicity?
Does Christ or His Apostles quote from any of the following OT books; Josue (Joshua), Judges, Ruth, 2 Kings (2 Samuel), 1 Paralipomenon (1 Chronicles), 2 Paralipomenon (2 Chronicles), 1 Esdras (Ezra), 2 Esdras(Nehemiah), Esther, Ecclesiastes, Canticles of Canticles (Song of Solomon), Lamentations, (Abdias) Obadiah, Nahum, or (Sophonias) Zephaniah?
"The Hebrew canon which Jesus read from in the synagogues did not contain the Apocrypha."
Which Hebrew canon existed at this time? How do you know its contents? |
"Fides et Ratio" |
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Lainey
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Posted - July 24 2003 : 02:05:07 AM
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quote:
Communion is highly symbolic. We do not believe that the grape juice or wine becomes the actual blood of Christ, or that the little pieces of cracker we use become the actual flesh of Christ. We know full well that we are only consuming juice and crackers.
That is completely truthful. But why do you do this?
quote:
As the elements are being passed out to the congregation I sit in silent prayer thanking God for sending His Son to save me, asking His forgiveness for my sins, and asking His help as I continue with my quest to walk with Jesus. As the congregation takes the “bread” simultaneously, I close my eyes and reflect upon the Last Supper. As the congregation takes the “cup” simultaneously, I close my eyes and think of Jesus’ blood that was shed upon the cross for me. Intensely personal!!
Many [like dissident or lax Catholics] would do well to meditate so reverently before the Lord's Table. A thought for your meditations - what elements were crucified?
quote:
“Do Evangelicals elevate the communion service over and above scripture?” I don’t believe so. Scripture is the Divine Word of God, our set of rules to live by, if you will. It is to be believed and followed. And so we take Communion, as Jesus taught us to do by His example at the Last Supper, as put down in Scripture... and as you do in the Catholic Church.
I ask because the Evangelical communion service is somewhat safeguarded against profane sacrilege even though it isn't Divine; but Sacred Scripture is not safeguarded against profane sacrilege even though it is Divine. Do you see my point? This is vexing.
I see a twofold, contradicting dilemma. Theresa, in her wonderful, inspired profession of faith in the Real Presence has a dilemma. You, in your own beautifully contemplative, prayerful profession of faith in the Cross but not in the Real Presence have a dilemma. Theresa for believing in the Flesh & Blood, & you for not believing in the Flesh & Blood; both are correct even though they contradict each other. (The wonderful paradox that is Christianity ...)
quote:
...can we safely say this a place where two or more are gathered in His name?
Yes, just don't tell Rich. He's against all non-Mohican gatherings, thinking there's only one, true way to Mt. Table Top.
quote:
Is contemplation of the Eucharist Mysteries something God is calling me to? Quite possibly, Elaine. I believe we should never quit searching when the opportunity comes along to learn something....and I do think that we are all teachers, in a way, and can certainly learn from each other. You know, it's kinda like being able to solve a math problem in more than one way but yet the answer is the same. That may be a poor analogy but my mind sometimes understands explanation in that way.
Very good analogy. And I would add; why make an algebraic equation just to solve a simple addition problem?
Questions & challenges help each one of us to define & declare what it is we hold true. In the same way, the Church has dogmati |
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Theresa
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Posted - July 24 2003 : 07:38:41 AM
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Just a couple of things..."why make an algebraic equation to solve an addition problem?" See...told you my mind was a simple one and can't handle the complex. To some, their Walk is quite simple and for others, it involves more.
And...I won't say anything to Rich about this being a place where two or more are "Gathered" in His name. You've reminded me of a wonderful experience I had with a group several years ago in Yakima, Washington. I was on "tour" with our New World Choir, which both of my children were a part. One of the stops was at a retreat camp in Yakima and on the morning before we departed from there to go to our next destination, our pastor took us to a mountaintop (literally) and we had a very moving devotional service and Holy Communion right there! Now, while we don't do this at Table Rock, every single time I've been there, I know that God is there, too....and you don't have to look very far to see Him. It's a special place for me, too. |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - July 24 2003 : 1:11:20 PM
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Originally posted by Wilderness Woman:
"Communion is highly symbolic. We do not believe that the grape juice or wine becomes the actual blood of Christ, or that the little pieces of cracker we use become the actual flesh of Christ. We know full well that we are only consuming juice and crackers."
Originally posted by Lainey: "That is completely truthful. But why do you do this?"
Well... to be quite simplistic: because our Lord told us to.
Originally posted by Wilderness Woman: "As the elements are being passed out to the congregation I sit in silent prayer thanking God for sending His Son to save me, asking His forgiveness for my sins, and asking His help as I continue with my quest to walk with Jesus. As the congregation takes the “bread” simultaneously, I close my eyes and reflect upon the Last Supper. As the congregation takes the “cup” simultaneously, I close my eyes and think of Jesus’ blood that was shed upon the cross for me. Intensely personal!!"
Originally posted by Lainey: "Many [like dissident or lax Catholics] would do well to meditate so reverently before the Lord's Table. A thought for your meditations - what elements were crucified?"
The elements...you mean the bread and the wine? Of course, they were not crucified... our Lord was.
Originally posted by Lainey: "I ask because the Evangelical communion service is somewhat safeguarded against profane sacrilege even though it isn't Divine; but Sacred Scripture is not safeguarded against profane sacrilege even though it is Divine."
But you see... to us, our Evangelical Communion service is just as Divine and Holy as yours is to you. And Sacred Scripture is just as sacred to us as it is to you. I really see no dilemma here. To us, the "Real Presence" is in the fact that whenever we hold Communion, we are doing just that: Communing with our Lord. And as Theresa has said, when we do this in Remembrance of Him, he is very much there with us... a very Real Presence.
Originally posted by Lainey: "Securemann (Brother James) & I both have great confidence that we stand on solid ground &, therefore, we put the Church out before this public assize to be tried, probed, tested ... "
I really don't feel that anyone or anyone's beliefs or anyone's church is being put out there to be probed and tested. As I have said before in this thread, I honestly feel that all who have posted in this debate are "true" Christians.
Originally posted by Lainey: "Not all Protestants recognize Catholics as Christian."
Unfortunately, this is true... much to my dismay. Would that I could change it. But I can't. I can only know and profess to how I feel about this.
Thanks again, Lainey my friend, for your interest and for your comments.
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
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Posted - July 24 2003 : 2:02:41 PM
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I'm confused now, and must ask the question. What Protestants don't recognize Catholics as Christians? I wasn't aware there were ANY???
That's ridiculous for anyone to say Catholics aren't Christian. I know there are some Fundamentalist sects which malign Catholics, unfortunately, but was totally unaware any Protestants went so far as to deny Catholics as Christian. That's like an Unorthodox Jew calling an Orthodox Jew not Jewish. Ya know?
An additional thought: I was wary of this topic, as discussions of religion so OFTEN degenerates into real rancor and finger pointing.
I think Lainey, and all who participated, have handled this topic and the related topics so graciously and well it bears mentioning.
Each is strong in their convictions and faith, and is willing to discuss it and probe/investigate the beliefs of the others without this thread degenerating into some sectarian brushfire. Well done all.
It has been enlightening, enriching, and vastly interesting AND good for our souls!!! |
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Bill R
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Posted - July 24 2003 : 2:08:34 PM
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| Oh. Forgot about the "Irish Problem"! Real rancor - unfortunately even hatred I guess - between Catholics and Prods in the North. But even THERE I was unaware the Prods went so far as to say Catholics AREN'T CHRISTIAN!!! I don't think they go that far even there. So, my question remains? |
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securemann
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Posted - July 24 2003 : 3:00:57 PM
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| I gotta say in all honesty that it was Sister Lainey that helped me out and inspired me to pursue the "deeper" portions of the faith at a time when I was falling backwards again into the abyss.This was many years ago when we used to talk face to face and cyberspace was unheard of.But anyway,she still blows my doors off when it comes to theology.Hey,the last time anyone called me Brother James or Jim was at work many years ago.But it had a Yo before it.Yo Brother! |
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securemann
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Posted - July 24 2003 : 3:07:13 PM
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| Hey Lainey,I still have your sister's book on Luther. It went from Georgia to Roma to you to me.If you want it back,just let me know.Georgia and Roma are your sisters,right? |
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Lainey
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Posted - July 26 2003 : 12:17:15 AM
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Yo! Brother James!
So that's where the rascal's gone to! You can keep the book, and yes, they are my sisters.
The next time you're in the dark nights of the soul think of this;
Hli, Hli, lema sabacqani?
Heli, Heli, lema sabacthani?
Eli, Eli, lema sabacthani?
Bill, thank you for that. I agree this has been (and still is) an edifying, well exchanged debate - very good for the soul!
"That's like an Unorthodox Jew calling an Orthodox Jew not Jewish. Ya know?"
Exactly right! And that analogy brings to mine another thought. The more I absorb the Catholic faith the more I love Judaism. What a debt we owe to the "light of all the nations"!!
The hysteria against Catholics can be found among many - some Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, Pentecostal, etc. & in growing numbers among individual "ministries" that seem to erupt like boils of the Bubonic Plague. These are borne of hatred more than anything else - their "missions" are to "expose" the "great whore of Babylon" [Catholic Church] & the anti-christ [the Pope] while "saving" otherwise damned "non-Christian" Catholics from the clutches of Satan by means of corrupted scripture. They like names such as; New Life, Berean, Gospel Light, New Pathway, etc ... Ministries. They're fond of chiding less "faithful" Protestants for ecumenical bents or "soft toleration" of papists. They are a very good argument in favor of knowledge of one's faith as they only gain ground where there is ignorance. They are numerous, though.
WW - thank you! The probing/testing isn't a bad thing - that's kind of the point of this thread. I have more comments/questions as time permits. [And I do realize & appreciate it wasn't an easy thing for you to 'bare your soul' - thanks.]
CT, the Septuagint questions are valid. The Deuterocanon (and please stop calling it apocrypha - it's not "hidden" because it's inspired Scripture. On the words of Christ & His Apostles, it is so) is an important question you raised.
What was the subject of defense in Origen's epistle to Africanus?
Who were the seven martyred sons & what was the threefold prayer of their mother?
Who said this?; "We concede – as we must – that so much of what they (the Catholic Church) say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?"
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The Decline of Controversy ... Part 1
