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Ilse
The Dutch Trader
Netherlands
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
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 Posted - April 19 2003 : 7:31:56 PM
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http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=397925
Quote from an unidentified Iraqi archeologist: " The identity of a country, worth and civilization lies in history. If the civilization of a country is plundered, like here, it also ends history."
I once again quote:
Advancing down the road from Niniveh
Death paused a while and said 'Now listen here.
You see the names of places roundabout?
They're mine now, and I've turned them inside out.
Take Eden, further south: at dawn today
I ordered up my troops to tear away
its walls and gates so everyone can see
that gorgeous fruit which dangles from its tree.
You want it, don't you? Go and eat it then,
and lick your lips, and pick the same again.
Take Tigris and Euphrates; once they ran
through childhood-coloured slats of sand and sun.
Not any more they don't; I've filled them up
with countless different kinds of human crap.
Take Babylon, the palace sprouting flowers
which sweetened empires in their peaceful hours -
I've found a different way to scent the air:
already it's a by-word for despair.
Which leaves Baghdad - the star-tipped minarets,
the marble courts and halls, the mirage-heat.
These places, and the ancient things you know,
you won't know soon. I'm working on it now.'
And I do blame the US administration.
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OH HAI!
Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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May 13 2002
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Posted - April 20 2003 : 07:51:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ilse
And I do blame the US administration.
Well, at least you didn't put coalition in quotes this time!!!
Bubba Rich |
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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
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May 17 2002
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Posted - April 20 2003 : 08:46:49 AM
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| So Ilse, how do you feel about the fact that the Iraqi people have been freed from Saddam's rule--something they were utterly unable to accomplish on their own? |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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securemann
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 08 2002
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Posted - April 20 2003 : 12:56:45 PM
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| Only time will tell.Things are a mess over there because the Americans are "hated". Too many factions and of course the accusations that the U.S.will try to have a hand in the "New Iraqi" government.I see things getting worse and they want us out real quick.What do we do if the new Iraq does not shape up to what we want it to be? Go back in? |
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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
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Posted - April 20 2003 : 4:10:31 PM
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| They may want us out quick, Jim, but I have a feeling we're going to be sticking around for a while. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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Ilse
The Dutch Trader
Netherlands
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May 17 2002
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Posted - April 20 2003 : 5:43:42 PM
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quote:
So Ilse, how do you feel about the fact that the Iraqi people have been freed from Saddam's rule--something they were utterly unable to accomplish on their own?
Scott, no argument from me on that. I feel delighted about it. In retrospect now, wish it had been done in '91 though.
Frankly, I have had major problems with defining a position on this war, being neither totally against it nor totally for it, for the very issue you mention. The thing that so galls me now in seeing the recent developments, is realizing it never was about that. Already since October there have been warnings about the art and history collections and archeological places. Priceless collections from the birth place of civilization. Everything played out according to the predictions and what are the troops doing? Protecting the Ministry of Oil, and a puppet guy the US administration wants in charge. Top it off with Rumsfeld thinking it all very hilarious: "What, so many vases in Iraq???".
A war for oil, after all. How very very disappointing.
quote:
What do we do if the new Iraq does not shape up to what we want it to be?
That's the question, isn't it? The fundamentalists are taking to the streets demanding an Islamic state. What progress is in there? On Dutch TV tonight was an interesting documentary about the Christian communities in Iraq (under Saddam a secular state), who are very worried about their future and security now. There is irony in that, right?
I wouldn't read too much into the "America get out now" thing. I think that comes naturally. I asked my mother (who was a child during World War II) how she would have felt had the Americans stayed for years. She said: "We loved them, but we wouldn't have wanted that. We wanted to take care of our own country." Of course, Western Europe isn't Iraq, and there's no Marshall Plan available.... |
OH HAI!
Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
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Posted - April 20 2003 : 8:50:15 PM
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"Of course, Western Europe isn't Iraq, and there's no Marshall Plan available...."
.....and WWII ended in 1945. The Marshall Plan came was proposed TWO YEARS LATER, and authorized by Congress and signed by Truman THREE YEARS later. This war isn't even declared over yet. Give it a chance and let's see how it goes.
FYI--from the Library of Congress website:
For European Recovery: The Fiftieth Anniversary of the Marshall Plan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Key Dates for the Marshall Plan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
March 12, 1947
The "Truman Doctrine," outlined in a presidential speech to Congress,
makes it U.S. policy to protect nations threatened by communism.
June 5, 1947
In a speech at the Harvard commencement, Secretary of State George C.
Marshall calls for an American plan to help Europe recover from
World War II.
June 19, 1947
The British and French Foreign ministers issue a joint communiqué inviting
twenty-two European nations to send representatives to Paris to draw up
a cooperative recovery plan.
July 12, 1947
The Conference of European Economic Cooperation, which became the
Committee of European Economic Cooperation (CEEC), meets in Paris.
The Soviet Union declines to attend and pressures Czechoslovakia, Poland,
and Hungary into staying away.
September 1947
The CEEC submits its report estimating needs and the cost of the
European Recovery Program (ERP) over four years. It provides for the
establishment of the Organization for European Economic Cooperation
(OEEC) to coordinate the program from the European side.
February 1948
A Soviet-backed, communist coup occurs in Czechoslovakia.
April 2, 1948
Congress passes the Economic Cooperation Act that authorizes the
Marshall Plan. President Truman signs it the next day.
April 1948
Paul Hoffman of Studebaker Corporation is appointed Administrator of the
Economic Cooperation Agency (ECA), the temporary American agency
created to implement the plan. Averell Harriman is appointed special
representative of the ECA in Europe.
April 15, 1948
First official meeting of the OEEC in Paris to determine national needs
prior to passage of appropriations bill by U.S. Congress.
June 30, 1949
The Federal Republic of Germany officially enters the OEEC in the
second year of the program.
December 31, 1951
The ERP ends six months early because of the escalation of the Korean
War, which had begun in June 1950. Transfer of funds from the U. S. to
Europe had totaled $13.3 billion.
July 5, 1972
In a speech at the Harvard commencement, West German chancellor Willy
Brandt announces creation of the German Marshall Fund to thank the U.S.
for its assistance.
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Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - April 20 2003 : 9:05:30 PM
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| Today, the one thing that has stuck with me from Iraq is the fact that during Easter services over there many of the soldiers reaffirmed their faith with water from the Tigris River. |
Theresa |
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securemann
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 08 2002
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Posted - April 20 2003 : 9:20:07 PM
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| Theresa, Where did you read that? I would like to check it out.That would be great that the troops did that without the Muslims going bonkers and prohibiting it like they do with many things in regards to our faith. |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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November 27 2002
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Posted - April 20 2003 : 10:19:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Theresa
Today, the one thing that has stuck with me from Iraq is the fact that during Easter services over there many of the soldiers reaffirmed their faith with water from the Tigris River.
Theresa, I have seen a number of TV news reports showing both Protestant (complete with hymn singing) and Catholic church services, memorial services, blessings, and prayers... right from the beginning, even before the troops left Kuwait.
I think perhaps, Jim, we're doing it on our own terms this time! It has warmed my heart... not only that they have been happening, but also that the reporters have been covering them. |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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November 27 2002
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Posted - April 20 2003 : 10:44:37 PM
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Regarding the Museum in Baghdad and the loss of the historical collections...
Obviously, the U.S. military officials did listen to the warnings about the places of antiquity and the collections of valuable artifacts. They were not bombed! They were actually saved from destruction by the U.S. forces whenever possible. How could anyone have known about the planned heist of the artifacts from the museum, which are already showing up in the European market? The real disgrace is that the Iraqis did not care enough about them to take the proper precautions. They should have had those items packed up and removed to a safe location months ago.
A shame? Absolutely! Our fault? No way. |
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Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
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May 17 2002
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Posted - April 20 2003 : 11:32:12 PM
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Jim,
I saw this on a Fox News report this morning. The troops were sitting in chairs set up in rows outside one of the palaces and the priest/clergy reported it. I'll do some checking around to see if it is posted anywhere here on the internet. |
Theresa |
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Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
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Posted - April 21 2003 : 08:06:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wilderness Woman
Regarding the Museum in Baghdad and the loss of the historical collections...
Obviously, the U.S. military officials did listen to the warnings about the places of antiquity and the collections of valuable artifacts. They were not bombed! They were actually saved from destruction by the U.S. forces whenever possible. How could anyone have known about the planned heist of the artifacts from the museum, which are already showing up in the European market? The real disgrace is that the Iraqis did not care enough about them to take the proper precautions. They should have had those items packed up and removed to a safe location months ago.
A shame? Absolutely! Our fault? No way.
European market? Might want to check out the Louvre. Also, this morning we're hearing that the scientist that was turned over/captured is telling officials that four days prior to the 48 hour warning they started destroying WMD sights, etc. Seems they were more interested in saving their own behinds than saving those artifacts. |
Theresa |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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May 13 2002
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Posted - April 27 2003 : 3:28:02 PM
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I couldn't have said this [much  ] better myself. Happy to say this fellow is from Mohicanland - Asheville. My son, Jesse, forwarded the article to me:
How ridiculous do the left's bleating war predictions, protests look now?
By Mark Ruscoe, Local Columnist
April 25, 2003 11:48 p.m.
"We live in a time where we have a man sending us to war for fictitious reasons."
-- Michael Moore, Hollywood filmmaker
"People avoided a war or doing very much, and it ended up in genocide."
-- Paul Kagame, president of Rwanda, on his country's history of atrocities
"Liberty is not America's gift to the world. It is God's gift to every people."
-- G.W. Bush
I have a somewhat different perspective on our nation's recent success in toppling Saddam Hussein and liberating Iraq than do some of the fretful writers gracing these pages. These are of course the same folks that until about four weeks ago were offering up dire predictions for the coming war. For fun, let's look back at some of them, and how they turned out:
n "We were mistaken to have engaged in this immoral war." Immoral, not. As journalist Christopher Hitchens, former icon of the left put it, "There's just no way that allowing Saddam to continue butchering innocents and potentially threatening the rest of the world can be viewed as a morally superior position." In fact, turning a blind eye toward such butchery is the immoral position.
n "Massive casualties to the U.S./coalition forces, and Iraqi civilian population will result, and we will bog down in a Vietnam-like quagmire." Granted, any U.S./coalition casualties are grievous, but the thousands of body bags predicted (almost gleefully, one senses) by the left to be needed for coalition forces have, for the most part, gone unused. And while any Iraqi civilian casualties are regrettable, it must be pointed out that it has been our forces which have painstakingly attempted to avoid them, while Saddam has painstakingly attempted to maximize civilian casualties in order to better play to the sensibilities of the civilized world. Truly war turned upside down. The quagmire? After 12 years of indulging Saddam is called a "rush to war," a three- week conflict now becomes a "quagmire"? Give me a break. It took Janet Reno longer to take down the Branch Davidian compound in Waco (51 days) than it has taken us to liberate a country the size of California.
n "An explosion of negative sentiment will occur on the Arab and European streets, and North Korea will seize this opportunity to become even more hard-line." Hasn't happened. In fact, Iran has become much more conciliatory. They see themselves sandwiched between American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. North Korea wants to talk. Our friend, the French prime minister, Jacques Chirac, phoned Dubya just a week or so ago. Anyone know the French word for "grovel"? The whole of the Arab world could be on the brink of transformation, thanks to one man's unwavering conviction.
n "The United Nations is better equipped to contain Saddam." Excuse me. Were we still mired in the incompetent paper shuffling of the U.N., absolutely nothing would be any different in Baghdad now than it was six weeks or six years ago. Which is to say massive death, torture, and deprivation.
The big question to me is why the left was so incapable of seeing, let alone predicting the human rights atrocities committed by Saddam. And why were they so indifferent once they were made plain? And how did the left miss on so many of their other dire predictions?
Two theories, both of which I think play a part in the answer: (1) Their visceral hatred of G.W. Bush (and in many cases America), has blinded them to what objectively is correct. They have badly overplayed partisanship on this issue, counting on political capital. In fact, it will probably backfire badly for them. ( |
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Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
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May 17 2002
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Posted - April 27 2003 : 4:44:06 PM
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| Rich, this strays a little, too, but perhaps the left got it so wrong because they were listening to "Baghdad Bob". Also, those antiquities...looks like now it could have been an inside job. Time will tell on that one. |
Theresa |
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Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
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May 17 2002
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Posted - July 16 2003 : 10:14:52 AM
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John Michael's home!! We celebrated July 4th with a welcome home for John Michael. I know you don't know who he is. Let me enlighten you. This young Marine was in An Nasiriyah,Iraq for six months. He was in the heat of battle there and we're so happy he's home safe. He is now back at Camp LeJuene (sp) and serving his country well. He is the son of some very good friends here and was happy to remove the yellow ribbon from the front porch of a local family. With all the bad news we are receiving daily of the deaths of our military, I wanted to share a "good news" story of personal interest.
Image Insert:
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Theresa |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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[To Be] Historical Events in this War in Iraq
