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richfed
Sachem
USA
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May 13 2002
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 Posted - May 17 2003 : 10:35:59 AM
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The Seventh Cavalry, under the command of Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer, and accompanied by elements of the Second Cavalry & a couple of Gatling guns, left Fort Abraham Lincoln, in Dakota Territory, for a date with destiny.
As they paraded out toward the horizon, Custer's wife, Libby, saw a mystical & prophetic image of the column reflected in the clouds above.
The scene of the last stand ... about 5 and a half weeks later ...
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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Posted - June 17 2003 : 09:18:11 AM
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And, on this date, in 1876, the third & largest prong of the advance against the Sioux & Cheyenne, under General George Crook, and accompanied by a large contingent of Crow & Shoshone allies, were driven back on the banks of Rosebud Creek. Under Crazy Horse, a force of approximately 800 warriors attacked the column by surprise while they were having breakfast coffee. The Battle of the Rosebud raged for 6 hours and was largely an exercise in ammunition expenditure - very few casualties. However, it may have been much worse for the soldiers if not for the aggressive actions of their Indian allies.
Though Crook claimed victory, his words were hollow. Leaving the field after the enemy withdrew, Crook & his force returned to their Wyoming base camp to resupply & go fishing, thus leaving the Sioux War expedition devoid of over one-third of its fighting power. Perhaps even more importantly, no messenger was ever sent to the other two columns [Gibbon & Terry] warning them of the Indians' surprising disposition.
Whether knowing of this affair would have helped Custer's 7th Cavalry on the Little Bighorn, exactly one week later, we will never know. |
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Doc M
Great Quack Healer of the Frontier
USA
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May 17 2002
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Posted - June 17 2003 : 11:19:49 AM
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Oh, poo on old George! My great-grandaddy whupped his butt in
Virginia during the War of Northern Aggression! *snort! snort!*
Doc M |
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chasber
Lost in the Wilderness
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August 06 2002
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Posted - September 07 2003 : 09:49:30 AM
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| I think George gets treated a little worse than he should on this. First, he detached 8 companies of calvary to search for an imagined nearby village. Thus he fought this battle with only half of his available force. Second, he had wounded men that needed to be escorted to safety. If he sent back enough men to insure the wounded's safety it would leave him too weak to continue offensive actions. Third, he no idea of the loctions of the other two forces in the field. I also doubt that he he could have induced a scout to ride around in hostile country looking for them. |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
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July 03 2002
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Posted - September 07 2003 : 11:07:42 AM
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| I'm with Doc M. Furthermore, "Remember the Washita!" What goes around, comes around. hehe |
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joseph wiggs
Colonial Settler
USA
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January 12 2005
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Posted - February 03 2007 : 8:34:55 PM
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I think that poor George died for all of our sins perpetrated against the Native Americans of this Country. It was the collective arrogance of the nineteenth Century and, a refusal to treat other(different)people fairly and with the dignity all people deserve.
A graduate of West Point Custer was trained to obey orders by his government. Could he have declined? Yes! However, such a moral decision seldom happens in real life. Most of us, sadly, are pretty much like sheep, just following the heard. |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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March 14 2005
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Posted - February 03 2007 : 8:53:28 PM
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| Judging actions taken in "historical times" by today's standards is a tad self-serving to say the least. Kinda makes everyone today look like a "goody two shoes" and feel superior to yesterdays standards. Folks forty, or mabye been say one hundred years from now, - may easily look at us a somewhat retarded, or to be kind, - a tad slow. They won't be any more correct than we are, - times cahnge with the passage of time. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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joseph wiggs
Colonial Settler
USA
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January 12 2005
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Posted - February 04 2007 : 6:28:21 PM
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I could not agree with you more. I have always been a proponent of not judging an historical event by contemporaneous standards. Once we remove any event from it's historical contex and attempt to make judgment we are, as you say, self serving.
Custer alone should not bear sole responsibility for the fatal outcome of the battle; there are those who would imply this. He was there at the expressed orders of his superiors and governmental policy. As a result, combatants on both sides loss their lives. |
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Obediah
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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August 16 2006
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Posted - February 05 2007 : 11:10:52 AM
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| OTOH, some things are universal, such as the stupidity of dividing your forces in the face of the enemy, especially when they outnumber you (R.E. Lee at Chancellorsville being a prominent exception). Remember what Sam Elliott said to Mel Gibson about Custer in We Were Soldiers. |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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Posted - February 05 2007 : 11:36:07 AM
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| I was making a "general comment" about looking at yester-years (historic events) through todays "moral binoculors" - if they can be called that. Somehow "we" always coming out looking great, - while those in question - kinda don't make the grade. Today, Christopher Colombus is a perferct example. Good or poor judgement during individual conflicts are another matter, - and again have happened thoughout world history in every country. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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joseph wiggs
Colonial Settler
USA
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January 12 2005
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Posted - February 05 2007 : 7:05:33 PM
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Stupidity is such a harsh word isn't it? For me it brings to mind an image of a slack jawed Neanderthal picking his nose with one finger and rubbing his anus with another while awaiting the command to "switch."
However, I can not disagree with your position for you are correct. History is loaded with universal "stupidity."
For example, the 183 men who died at the Alamo rather than surrender;
The Charge of the Light Brigade; King Leonidas and his three hundred Spartans;physicians who insisted on treating patients who succumbed to the Black Plague;the Minutemen who dared to face welltrained, British troops; well, you know what I mean.
Prior to the Battle on the Rosebud, no warriors had ever attempted to stand before a Cavalry charge. Their method of military expertise was believed to be a lay down cover fire which allowed the women, children, and old people to flee. Then the tribe would separate into samller and smaller groups allowing the vast majority to escape. A perfectly rational, military option I think!
The truth of the matter is that the mindset of each and everyone of Custer's superior officers (Custer included)lived, breathed,and believed in an era of great racial and social misunderstandings. As such, these men, and many others like them were convinced that "Injuns" would run rather than confront the mighty U.S Army. Thus, their primary concern was that the Indians would get away and not be punished.
These men were categorically wrong as exemplified by the Battle of the Rosebud and the Little Big Horn. Stupid? Perhaps. I prefer to refer to them as "victims" to their own, erroneous perceptions.
Hindsight, How do I love thee dearly. |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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Posted - February 05 2007 : 8:27:49 PM
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| Yes, - hindsight never makes a bad call. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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RedFraggle
Mohicanite
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October 13 2006
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Posted - February 06 2007 : 12:28:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Stupidity is such a harsh word isn't it? . . . . For example, the 183 men who died at the Alamo rather than surrender;
The Charge of the Light Brigade; King Leonidas and his three hundred Spartans. . . .
Ah, yes, the 300 Spartans, who are destined to be glorified in the most ridiculous waste of celluloid produced this year, Frank Miller's "300." Sorry, guys, I just can't look forward to this movie.
Not to impugn the topic, which is an interesting discussion, but, as a person who studies Greeks and Romans, I'm bombarded with talk of "300" every day. That, if you ask me, is stupid.  |
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joseph wiggs
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - February 06 2007 : 7:24:16 PM
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You have done that wish I had taken the time to do; the study of Greek and Roman culture. I have read just enough on the subject to qualify me as an astute idiot. If I remember correctly, there were a few other participants at this battle along with the famous "300." How important was good king Leonidas and, his compadres in this battle? I know you have the capability to smash my heroic notions, but thats Okay. You won't be the first woman to deliver me such a blow of reality. |
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RedFraggle
Mohicanite
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October 13 2006
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Posted - February 06 2007 : 7:59:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
If I remember correctly, there were a few other participants at this battle along with the famous "300." How important was good king Leonidas and, his compadres in this battle?
Correct! There were actually around 6000-7000 Greeks who fought the battle of Thermopylae (August of 480 BC). King Leonidas the Spartan, leader of the famous contingent of 300, was in command of the entire mass of troops because, as Herodotus tells us, "he was the most respected." The combined Greek force actually held its own against the invading Persian army for two days before the Persians discovered a way around the narrow pass and ambushed the Greeks. At the approach of the Persians, many of the Greek troops fled. (Herodotus says they were sent away by the valiant Leonidas, who received oracles to the effect that the entire army would die, but there is some modern speculation as to whether or not they simply fled from fear.)
Long story short, Leonidas and his 300 stayed to guard the Thermopylae pass, along with other Spartans and troops from two or three other Greek cities. They were slain to a man. Herodous again: "[T]hey resisted to the last, with their swords, if they had them, and, if not, with their hands and teeth, until the Persians . . . finally overwhelmed them with missile weapons."
Importantly, Thermopylae did not drive the Persians out of Greece. The battle itself turned out to be a very costly delaying tactic, though it created a lot of national pride (especially for the Spartans!). It would take another year of war and Persian defeats at Salamis and Plataea to liberate Greece entirely from the Persian threat (479 BC).
That's about all I've got. Hope I didn't "smash" any heroic notions. That certainly wasn't my intention!
Since I'm more of a linguist than a historian, give me a sec I think I can find something pretty cool (in my opinion) dealing with Leonidas and the death of the 300. Something that you don't see just everyday.... |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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May 13 2002
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Posted - February 07 2007 : 5:58:34 PM
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Hey Red -
That was a .pdf you were trying to upload. That's probably why you had troubles ... only .jpg & .gif images are accepted. You'll need to copy & paste that text here if you can. |
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joseph wiggs
Colonial Settler
USA
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January 12 2005
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Posted - February 07 2007 : 9:43:24 PM
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Redfraggle, thank you so much. What a wonderful and informative dissertation. You did not crush my "heroic" dreams. What you did is spread the glory about to include all the participants in this battle. As I read your thread, I remembered the "reality" of this battle as opposed to myth and misinformation.
Again, thank you so very much for your contribution. However, be aware, I may very well seek you out for future references regarding historical events. You are, for a certainty, a prime source of information and knowledge. |
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RedFraggle
Mohicanite
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October 13 2006
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Posted - February 08 2007 : 1:09:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
However, be aware, I may very well seek you out for future references regarding historical events. You are, for a certainty, a prime source of information and knowledge.
You're welcome to fire away any questions you have, but I may not always have an answer! I don't know how much of a "prime source" I am, but I'll certainly try. 
I was going to post a couple of poems written at the time of the battle of Thermopylae, but I can't make the Greek font work. So here are my translations of the two poems, if you're interested:
Simonides 531
And time, the subduer of all, will not obscure [the memory].
This burial place of noble men took as its inhabitant[s] the glory
of Greece. And Leonidas also bears witness,
Sparta’s king, who left behind a great ornament
of heroic excellence and ever-living fame.
Epitaph for the Spartan Dead
O stranger, go tell the Spartans that here
we lie, we who followed their orders. |
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joseph wiggs
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - February 08 2007 : 7:26:48 PM
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Thank you so very much. The poems are beautiful!.
"and time, the subduer of all, will not obscure(the memory)"
"O stranger, go tell the Spartans that here we lie,we who followed orders."
I can not explain why I felt the necessity to repeat those two lines. I only know that in doing so I am humbled as never before.
Again, thank you. |
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On This Date ... In 1876
