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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 14 2005
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
Status: offline
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 Posted - April 11 2010 : 08:47:12 AM
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Good article, MG; I like to see that kind of teamwork between neigbors. I only hope that the neighbor responded with something more than a handgun, since that is strictly a defensive weapon, and only a novice brings one to a gunfight. If I were to hear gunshots and screaming from my neighbor's house, I may have one (or more) of my handguns on my person, but in my hands would be one of my combat shotguns or automatic rifles, along with extra shells/magazines (just in case it turned into an 'all-nighter') 
Speaking as a front-line level LEO (and not a politically-appointed 'white-shirt'), I have always said that the working-cops best friend is the armed citizen. I had a similar case almost 20 years ago, where there had been an attempted robbery of a homeowner. In this instance, the actor was loudly knocking on the door of the residence at approximately 11:30 PM, smashing said door open as the husband approached to answer it. The actor then knocked the husband to the floor and proceeded to kick him repeatedly in the face/head, while shouting for the other members of the household to "give me your money, or I'll kill this...". The wife, instead of dialing 9-1-1, and hoping that we were close, retrieved her own 12-gauge shotgun, and delivered both barrels full of #6 shot into the actor's face/upper torso area, at approximately five (5) yards. Once the actor was subdued, and the situation stabilized, she then called 9-1-1 and requested emergency services.
During my interview of her, she asked me, "Officer, what do I do now?" I said that since she already removed the threat, her first duty was to go to the hospital and see to her husband; and then later, she should replace the broken door. Pointing at the now-deceased actor, I added, "Don't you worry about this mess, we'll take out the garbage for you when we leave." I then handed her a box of 12-gauge OO-Buckshot (privately-purchased, Federal-brand 'Tactical Load', since I care enough to send the very best), and told her that these will provide better results than the game-load she used, should the need arise again.
I can just see some of you saying, "OMG Sarge, you gave her more bullets!" 'You Betcha' I did, since I do believe that next to protecting my citizens, my other duty is educating them. Whether the education is on the safe operation of a motor vehicle, or the tactical employment of firearms, I like to make sure that they get the best possible service for their tax dollars.
YMH&OS,
The Sarge |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 14 2005
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Posted - April 11 2010 : 3:30:33 PM
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"Officer, what do I do now?"
.
Reload, ... |
you can keep "The Change" |
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shadawick
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
August 19 2009
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Posted - April 12 2010 : 10:14:00 PM
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Way to go Sarge!
I am sold on the Federal Tac loads. I'm not a little guy or a sissy when it comes to recoil but honestly shoot my 870 better with it. If I was hunting large game or at extended range I would probably go with full power.
Where I live if it is late at night, the county deputies backup is often 40 miles away in the other end of the county. Their best bet is that they know the good ole boy down the road is willing to help and is often better armed then the LEO.
Thank you for your service and common sense. |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - April 13 2010 : 09:37:34 AM
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quote:
shadawick noted: I am sold on the Federal Tac loads. I'm not a little guy or a sissy when it comes to recoil but honestly shoot my 870 better with it.
Federal's Tactical-Buckshot (Part #H132-00) was one of law enforcement's favorite 12-gauge loads for almost twenty years, and for the same reason you use it (tighter grouping out to fifteen yards, faster follow-up shot capability and reduced muzzle-flash). For the last couple of years, it has been replaced in most LE arsenals by Federal's new Low-Recoil Tactical Buckshot (Part #LE127-00), which has eight (8) OO-Buck pellets instead of the traditional nine (9) of the old Tactical Load and full-power loads. This new 'Tactical Load' will maintain all eight (8) pellets inside of an average human torso out to twenty-five (25) yards, and inside of a human head out to fifteen (15) yards (great for 'shutting-off the switch' ASAP).
As good as this new load is, it is not without controversy; that being its slighty reduced velocity is enough to cause stoppages (either 'failure to feed', 'failure to eject' or 'double-feed') with some auto-loading shotguns. Most of my co-workers like the new load, and since they prefer to use the 'company gun' (Remington 870 Police slide-action shotgun, with a 14" bbl), they are unaffected. Some of my fellow working cops have recieved special dispensation to carry their privately-owned Remington 11-87 Police or the Benelli M-4 Super-90 semi-automatic shotguns, and they prefer the old 'H132' load. Personally, I can use either load since I carry my own Remington 870 Police, with an 18" bbl and Trijicon night-sights (I prefer the longer sight-radius, for 'surgical work')
For the average citizen, the 'H132' load is probably the best, since for the most part they will not be engaging a threat past fifteen (15) yards, so a little more pellet-spread will not matter at all. Also, having one more projectile heading for the target never hurts either
If you do want to try Federal's new law-enforcement load, you can find it through numerous retailers. As a sidenote, the boxes are sometimes marked 'For Law Enforcement Use Only', this is only a corporate policy, and not a statutory (legal) limitation. Even in a civil suit (which will most likely follow any defensive use of force, once the deceased Leech's family finds out you have 'stuff' to steal), this 'red herring' can be countered.
Some slimy plaintiff counsel may try to argue that you shouldn't have used a 'deadly cop bullet' to kill their poor (and obviously needy) client. You can easily argue that ill-informed statement with, "I wanted the safest possible round that would stop the attack, and who would know better than law enforcement?" I know that sounds silly having to do that, but one thing I have learned over the years is that just when you think the average lawyer has hit rock-bottom, they manage to kick a hole in the floor and find a new level!
quote:
shadawick followed with: Where I live if it is late at night, the county deputies backup is often 40 miles away in the other end of the county. Their best bet is that they know the good ole boy down the road is willing to help and is often better armed then the LEO.
As I noted before, folks like you are my best allies 
quote:
shadawick finished with: Thank you for your service and common sense.
And "Thank You", for taking an active part in protecting yourself and your community (truly one of the hallmarks of a Stakeholder) 
YMH&OS,
The Sarge |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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shadawick
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
August 19 2009
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Posted - April 13 2010 : 10:43:58 PM
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Thanks Sarge,
I was the security officer for both of the banks I worked for over a 20 year period. As such I also was a county reserve deputy and had to qualify just as the regular patrol officers. I usually carried a Star PD 45 which was really a sleeper when you think that straight from the factory it possessed most if not all the features that guys were spending a thousand bucks on to get their Colts customized. Now I don't worry about concealment and carry either a Springfield Operator or Kimber TLEII (The Kimber is what the LAPD SWAT carry) but I prefer the Springer. Both wear night sights and lasers. I load the Winchester Ranger bonded 230gr HP law enforcement round. It is a proven powerhouse! Shotgun is a Remington 870 police magnum 18" bbl with ghost-ring peep sight, with the Fed Tac load. Short range rifle is a Bushmaster AR platform with 16" HB with red dot loaded with Black Hills 77gr. HP (this load was developed for the special operation teams in Afghanistan due to the standard M855 load running out of steam at 400+ meters) Long range rifle is my pride and joy M-1D Garand sniper, full GI with original Lyman scope, loaded with Lake City GI AP. These long heavy penetrators are great at busting motor blocks and anything else shy of 5/8" armour plate. Yeah, I kinda like my toys and believe that if you own something and make the decision to prepare yourself for self defense, you had better get the best and practice, practice and more practice! Now you know why my comment about being better armed then mos LEO. Stay safe! |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - April 14 2010 : 10:46:49 AM
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You know Shad, I had a feeling that you were 'on the job' in one way or another; so you really don't need to thank me, since you already paid your dues to the club. I also see that you have good taste in hardware as well.
I own a Star PD .45ACP, which I bought back in 1993 when I was looking for an undercover piece that wouldn't look like a 'cop gun' to the scumbags I was dealing with. I used to call it my 'Taco-Burner', and found it very easy to conceal and shoot effectively. I liked it so much that the following year I bought a Star BKS, which was the alloy-framed, compact 9mm cousin to the PD. Both guns reside in my vault, primarily as collectibles nowadays. Another compact 9mm I fell in love with (and still have as well) was my HK P-7. During that time I also used to carry a Colt Series 70 1911 Government Model, usually along with my Colt Series 80 Lightweight Commander as a 'fast-reload', when serving felony warrants. Those were some fun times, albeit a little hairy as well.
Now this is not to say that I still didn't have an affection for my 'wheelguns' either. At that time, my uniform service revolver was a Smith & Wesson Mod. 19 Combat Magnum with a 4" bbl. (not only an exceptionally accurate weapon, with great stopping-power, but she was aesthetically pleasing as well) For general off-duty carry I would change between a 2.5" bbl. Smith & Wesson Mod. 19 and a Colt Detective Special. For second-gun purposes, I would either use a S&W Mod. 38 Bodyguard Airweight or a Colt Agent. With the exception of the 4" Mod. 19 (which was turned-in when we transition to the Sig P-229... Yuck!), I still have the others and carry them from time to time as well.
After 9/11, I decided to upgrade my personal carry weapons with an assortment of 3rd Gen Glock pistols. I currently own four of the Glock 9mm (17, 19, 26 & 34), and two of the Glock .45 ACP (21 & 30). As much as I enjoyed my Stars, HK P-7 and 1911's, I figured it was time to be more practical for defensive work, and 'retire' them to my gun vault. Since the grip angle of the Glock is similar to a 1911 (the one I am most familiar with, since I was 8 years-old), I setteld on that brand as a more 'lawsuit-proof' replacement.
My personal tactical long guns include a pair of Remington M-870 Police 12-gauge shotguns (18" & 20" bbl. variants, both with magazine extensions), Colt AR-15, Bushmaster M-4, Colt 9mm SMG and a HK MP-5. I have acquired quite a few toys over the years, but it is now the Bushmaster and the 18" Remington 870 which rides with me in the patrol car.
For long-range business, I still find myself gravitating to my Springfield Armory M-1A; which has a Leatherwood ART (Automatic Range-Finding Telescope) on a quick-disconect reciever mount (not unlike the M-21 I carried as a 'Designated Marksman' in my Military Police Company) With that weapon, I own the real estate out past 800 meters.
For ammo choices, I prefer the following (depending on weapon, time of year, type of mission, etc.):
.38 Spl. +P+ 147 gr. Hydra-Shock JHP
.38 Spl. +P 158 gr. LSWC-HP
.38 Spl. +P 125 gr. JHP
.38 Spl. HV 150 gr. KTW FMJ/AP
.357 Mag. 125 gr. JHP
.357 Mag. 158 gr. JSP
9MM +P+ 124 gr. Hydra-Shock JHP
9MM +P+ 124 gr. FMJ/AP
.45 ACP 230 gr. Hydra-Shock JHP
5.56MM 55 gr. BTHP Tactical Urban Rifle
5.56MM 62 gr. M-855 FMJBT/AP
5.56MM 69 gr. BTHP Match Load
7.62MM 150 gr. FMJBT
7.62MM 168 gr. BTHP Match Load (for use with ART scope)
12-gauge Tactical Buckshot (either 8 or 9 pellet variety)
12-gauge Tactical Hydra-Shock Rifled Slug
*As far as my favorite ammunition brand, it is for the most part Federal (although I do use Eley and RWS for my .22 LR match pistols and rifles)
In closing, I have to admit that I find it refreshing to talk about small arms and ammunition. It does make for a pleasant diversion, so "Thank you" once again
YMH&OS,
The Sarge |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 14 2005
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Posted - April 14 2010 : 10:57:00 AM
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| For some enjoyment take that .22 LR out to 100 yards, - much more of a challenge that the 50 yards so often used with .22's. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
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Posted - April 14 2010 : 11:07:16 AM
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I've done some 100-meter work with both my Kimber Mod. 82 and Winchester Mod. 75, (shooting at the same 2" bullseye I use at 50 meters, it appears as a pin-prick through my peep & globe sight) and it is quite challenging. The best ammunition I've used for that distance is the RWS R-100 round (designed for biathalon shooting), which has a slightly higher velocity than their other premium match-grade cartridge, the R-50.
YMH&OS,
The Sarge |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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shadawick
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
August 19 2009
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Posted - April 14 2010 : 11:56:35 AM
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Sarge,
I thought you were a man of great character, now I know that you are also a "Great Character!"
When you ran through the list of hardware it sounded like you knew the combination to my vault.
I to had my love affair with the Mod. 19, in both 2.5 and 4" bbls. Used it to great affect with the Rem and Fed 125gr HP's, If you look up the stopping power ratings (If such actually exist short of a 12 ga buckshot to the CNS) it still ranks the top.
I took up the fad of shooting metallic silhouettes with it and hand-loaded hard cast 160gr SWC, you would be amazed what you can do with a pistol once you learn the importance of grip, stance, sight picture and trigger control.
Roger that on your M-1A, I fell in love with my TRW M-14 back in ROTC, it still had the selector switch but I tell you none of us or the instructors (many multi tour Vietnam vets) could not keep more then two or at the most three rounds on target till we had in effect became anti-aircraft gunners.
As to 5.56, I have also used the Hornady TAP rounds both 40 and 55gr. to grate effect on coyotes and a rabid fox (we have two farms and raise cattle). You would not believe the wound cavity with the 40gr on a rabid fox, the NC Wildlife game warden that came to retrieve the carcass for testing looked at it and said what in God's name did you shoot it with. He wanted a C/D of the pictures I took to show to some of the other wardens.
You talk of serving warrants, I think the worst time I had was when I rode shotgun or back up on the weekends and we had to check out all the little rural honky-tonks and beer joints. Drunk rednecks looking for a fight. It was funny when they would look at me in uniform and trying to place the face with a suit and tie in the bank. What was more funny was when some guy that had to be taken in on Friday night, came in to try and borrow money from me the next week.
As to you and MG talking about 22's at distance, I love to shoot long range 100+ yds. 22's. I have three that are my favorites:
Old German Mauser KKW, basically a K-98 training rifle. It is a tack driver!
Winchester 67 single shot, my first gun given to me by my Father.
Savage-Anschutz Mod 141, talk about a small bore sniper rifle, you have to shoot an Anschutz to believe them.
Another 22 I like to shoot is a French MAS 45, which is simply the old Mauser training rifle (actually made by the French on captured Mauser machinery brought back from Germany in WWII)it has a rear aperture sight with detachable 5rd. clip, it feels and handles like a K-98.
I will shut up for now and apologize for hijacking your thread and taking a detour on the subject matter.
If you and MG do not already visit it you should look at AR15.com, it is a great sight and I believe you would feel right at home. You never know who will be posting, I've had chats with Jim Scoutten from Shooting times, Mark Larue, The Gunny, the head of the Army Marksman Unit, both the snipers recently featured on the History Channel greatest shots (you would not believe their feats in the sand box) and most recently David Fortier. There are some real talent, manufacture reps, current and former LEO, military and civilian contractors, I think you'd fit in!
Stay safe.
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
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Posted - April 14 2010 : 3:57:38 PM
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TY for the accolades Shad, but I don't think of myself 'man of great character', but I will accept that I am something of a 'character' 
As for you worrying about 'Hijacking' this thread, IMHO you are far from that. Firstly, the folks who get their 'panties in a twist' over such subjects, do not skulk around this end of the board that much. So far, it's me, you and MG; and MG don't seem to mind, so all is well.
Secondly, since the thread was about men using firearms against a slimeball, then us men talking about firearms should fall well within any '6-degrees of separation' rule.
Now, on to the fun stuff:
Your Winchester 67 is truly a classic, and a direct relative of my Winchester 75. A funny story about my Winchester, is the one my dad told me when he gave it to me. Dad said that it belonged to my great-grandad, and that he bought it in 1949 from Sears in Pittsburgh, for the 'princely sum' of $17.49 plus tax. My dad said that he remembered my great-grandmother screeching at great-grandad, "Are you crazy! You spent almost $18 for a g*d d*mn gun!"
As funny as that sounds, one must remember that you could buy a carton of Lucky Strikes for around $1.25 and gasoline was around $0.17 a gallon. Either way, I am sure that great-grandpap is happy to know that his wise investment is still going strong at the local 'schutzenfests' and 'ham/turkey' matches.
YMH&OS,
The Sarge
P.S.- I'll have to check out 'AR15.com', thanks for the heads-up |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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shadawick
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
August 19 2009
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Posted - April 14 2010 : 11:06:03 PM
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Talking about what the 67 cost relative to the cost of living at the time, what do you think gives the most bang for the buck in firearms today? Personally, I would have to vote for the Savage and Stevens line of guns. Most of their center-fire bolt guns will hold their own if not beat the socks off comparable Winchesters and Remington's. If you have not tried them, their line of tactical and varmint rifles are incredible. Have any of your guys looked into the 6.8 in lieu of the 5.56? They are giving great down range ballistics and greatly enhanced penetration. As to tactical rifles, personally I am leaning toward the 6.5 line up. They have greater bullet weight selection, superior sectional density and greater ballistic coefficient, resulting in a much softer shooting rifle yet yielding superior down range terminal effects with less drop and less wind drift.
It is hard to beat the old 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser, but lean toward the 6.5 Creedmoor or 260 Remington. In my last post I mentioned talking with the head of the Army Marksmanship Unit and the two snipers with the longest confirmed kills in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the new hot item in their opinion and which they helped develop is sniper rifles chambered in 300 WSM which is simply the 300 Winchester short magnum (seems it is more inherently accurate them the old standby 300 Win Mag. Apparently they don't share NATO's and the European tactical community's love affair with the 338 Lapua. OK, I've met my quota for gun talk today and I'll shut up.
Stay safe |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - April 15 2010 : 10:18:14 AM
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Well Shad, as for best value for .22 match rifles, it is hard to beat the Savage Mk2 FVT youth rifle. I just bought one for my 11 year-old daughter, who has recently outgrown her Cricket .22, and for under $400 you get an excellent weapon with a set of Williams peep & globe sights.
-As for your question regarding the 6.8mm SPC as a replacement for the 5.56mm for civilian policing, maybe someday, but law enforcement is usually 10-15 years behind the military in weapon technology. We tend to stick with what we know, until the results are in on anything new.
-I'm also a bit perplexed over the Euro's love affair with the .338 Lapua, since IMHO it is not superior to the .300 WinMag. Then again, when it comes to ammunition nowadays, I do not trust the Europeans with crafting anything more than outstanding .22 LR cartridges, with the exception of HM Arsenal at Radway Green (the Brit equal to our own Lake City Arsenal)
YMH&OS,
The Sarge |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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shadawick
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
August 19 2009
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Posted - April 15 2010 : 1:04:52 PM
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If I'm not mistaken, most of the Williams and Redfield target sights, by the time you get the blocks, rear sight and front globe with inserts you have in the neighborhood of 150.00 to 200.00 in sights alone. So yes that Savage would be a bargain. I want to try one of their new 22 Hornet small varmint rifles, but would prefer a detachable clip instead of single shot (That way I leave the clip loaded and chamber empty in the corner by the door and when I go out all I got to do is slip the clip in, hate those coyotes, we've had 3 new calves the last couple of days and the coyotes have really been coming close, that's why we keep a burrow in the calving pasture, they will kick and kill any coyote, it's not uncommon to find dead ones in the pasture).
I think that if I was going to put up with the weight and recoil of the 338 Lapua, I would go ahead and try the new 416 Barret which believe it or not has better down range energy, penetration and terminal effects with less recoil and wind drift the even the 50 cal. Browning, which is saying a lot!
I have not tried any of the Radway Green, but have been very impressed with the Pri Partisan line. Their 5.56, in 69 and 75gr BTHP are close to the Black Hills 77gr (SMK)load but almost half the cost. I have been very impressed with the Mexican Aguilla ammo particular their 22 loadings, I use their 60gr.(yes a 60gr. 22 R.F round) subsonic load in the old Win. 67 for pest control, it is very accurate and deadly. Also some of the Russian center-fire loadings are good with great brass for reloading. I have also developed a fondness for some of the Fiocci loads (I believe some are made in the US in Missouri or Arkansas) and even a few of the Sellier & Belliot. Most American shooters have no idea how long these firms have been in business nor how good they are.
If you shoot any 7.62x39, I have really liked and had great results from the Russian ammo labeled "Golden Tiger," it is a 123gr FMJ, copper jacketed, lead core made to full military specs with bullet neck and primer sealant. It currently goes for about $240.00 per thousand. They also make a 223 in 55gr FMJ, that I've been told is equal to Lake City M193, which is saying a lot as I really prefer the LC M193 to M855 as an all around general anti-personnel round (Better longer range fragmentation, which is the real kicker as to 5.56 lethality.
As you see I really get into the subject, I sometimes wish I had looked into the forensic firearms & analysis line of work. |
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di-mc
Pioneer
USA
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September 03 2008
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Posted - April 16 2010 : 11:03:38 PM
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I just have to ask - was the actor abused as a child? I'm sure he was, so you shouldn't have shot him, but sat down with him and given him a hug. LOL! BTW, good work!
On the subject of an armed citizenry, do you know what they ask now at medical check-ups? At least for women they do; "are there firearms in the home". Yep, even before Obama care. |
Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 14 2005
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Posted - April 17 2010 : 04:38:52 AM
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| They asked me that me one time back in Maine Di, - and never again. You don't have to answer that, it's NONE of their business, - but of course they won't tell you that. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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shadawick
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
August 19 2009
Status: offline
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Posted - April 17 2010 : 9:58:23 PM
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Hi MG,
I haven't talked with you since you responded to the thread about my son Jimmy's singing.
http://www.mohicanpress.com/messageboard/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6794
Hope all is well for you. I hope that you have had the chance to go back to that thread and read the updates about the competition and audition that he won about three months ago in Chattanooga. Things are really looking up for him. He is in Knoxville this weekend for training with acting and singing coaches. Good to hear from you again and good post about using the 22 at longer range, they can be a lot of fun and skill builders. |
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