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winglo
Deerslayer
USA
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 Posted - August 11 2009 : 11:21:38 AM
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Here's another great editorial from the Wall Street Journal (that is such a great paper!). Dorothy Rabinowitz has some thoughts about President Obama. Y'know I didn't vote for him, but I wanted to give him his few months in office to see what he did. He truly seems to be a likable guy. But, you have to wonder what is he thinking? Even if the "fishy" e-mail reporting wasn't his idea, why doesn't he retract it and get rid of his irresponsible administrative personnel? He clearly doesn't know anything about the average American. Which is exactly what Ms. Rabinowitz is saying. . .
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342653428074782.html
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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Posted - August 11 2009 : 12:11:19 PM
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1984 DOES exist, - BO & friends are getting scarier by the minute. It took BO about 6 months to find a stupid freakin' dog for the White House, - and is now trying to ram this through at the speed of light!! ... No wonder he's in such a hurry, every damn paragraph discloses another loss of personal freedom & choice. The total opposite of the founding of this country.
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Dirty secret No. 1 in Obamacare is about the government's coming into homes and usurping parental rights over child care and development.
It's outlined in sections 440 and 1904 of the House bill (Page 838), under the heading "home visitation programs for families with young children and families expecting children." The programs (provided via grants to states) would educate parents on child behavior and parenting skills.
The bill says that the government agents, "well-trained and competent staff," would "provide parents with knowledge of age-appropriate child development in cognitive, language, social, emotional, and motor domains ... modeling, consulting, and coaching on parenting practices," and "skills to interact with their child to enhance age-appropriate development."
Are you kidding me?! With whose parental principles and values? Their own? Certain experts'? From what field and theory of childhood development? As if there are one-size-fits-all parenting techniques! Do we really believe they would contextualize and personalize every form of parenting in their education, or would they merely universally indoctrinate with their own?
Are we to assume the state's mediators would understand every parent's social or religious core values on parenting? Or would they teach some secular-progressive and religiously neutered version of parental values and wisdom? And if they were to consult and coach those who expect babies, would they ever decide circumstances to be not beneficial for the children and encourage abortions? |
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Leah
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USA
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Posted - August 11 2009 : 1:26:19 PM
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MG, I don't know if these "home visitation programs" are for at-risk families or for just any family. We already have (at least in Tenn.) state programs to address developmental needs for kids who qualify as being develpmentally delayed in either motor, cognitive or language areas and those services are provided by liscensed physical, occupational and speech therapists along with special education teachers from the ages of birth to 3 years of age.
I haven't read the bill so I don't know specifically what population of children this program would target. In my experience of doing home health care and treating some of these developmentally delayed kiddos in the home, the parents would leave and do laundry, run an errand, etc. It's not like they (all) appreciated what was done for their child, but rather saw it as an opportunity to take a break.
Your concerns about the general parenting instructions provided in this bill are shared. To me, not only is it troubling that "trained professionals" would be instructing families (with who knows what type of qualifications), but also it would be one more government intrusion into families' lives that they would be "entitled" to and become dependent upon. In my opinion, this is not the role of government. |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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Posted - August 11 2009 : 6:07:58 PM
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quote:
winglo said: Y'know I didn't vote for him, but I wanted to give him his few months in office to see what he did. He truly seems to be a likable guy. But, you have to wonder what is he thinking?
Well winglo, if you remember what I have been saying about him since 2004 (when I predicted on this very board, that a presidential ticket with him and Hillary could happen in 2008), is that personally he is a very likable guy. I also said that he was the type of guy I could easily be friends with, but it is his politics which I find very dangerous to the republic and the citizenry.
YMH&OS,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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Posted - August 11 2009 : 6:38:03 PM
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| Leah, - it's the intrusion that causes my concern. I have no doubt there are any number of folks that really do need a hand. I had two VERY handicapped step-children, both ended up in nursing homes. That would bankrupt a Rockefeller, - I understand folks needs. Having said that, I don't want a government program that can just walk into anyone's home, and "advise" them on raising THEIR children or anything else. If someone truly needs help, and asks for it, - no problem, give them the assistance they need. |
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winglo
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Posted - August 11 2009 : 7:45:46 PM
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| I think what bothers me the most is that this whole issue is truly revealing Obama and his administration as elitists. It's not that some people do and others do not need help (although I think help should come from charities, so that I can contribute to those I think are doing a good job!), but that the administration and crafters of this bill seem to think that the way that they think things should be done is the way that everyone should do it. The "we know better than you how to do this" (whatever--child raising, healthcare, etc.) "so let us help the ENTIRE country out of its horrible problems." I would rather take care of my own problems, thank you very much! |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - August 11 2009 : 8:07:33 PM
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| What we ALL need to recognize, regardless of your view, is that this is ONLY the first step, - government programs grow exponentially over a relatively short time periods. This is a program that 5-10-15 years from now will end up being 10x's what's being introduced, and will impact everyone's "daily life". BO's trying to nationalize 17% of the entire economy - and that's only the start. Keep in mind, "BO and friends" have already taken over the auto, finance and banking industries. How anyone can stay neutral or uninterested at this point, is beyond belief. ... Not very far down the road, - he's going after education. Total government control of all key industries - and this in less than one year. This is the TOTAL opposite of what the Founding Fathers fought for. ... Now, when groups protest, - they're called Un-American by the Speaker Of The House, - beyond belief!!! |
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di-mc
Pioneer
USA
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Posted - August 11 2009 : 9:33:43 PM
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| I heard one of the "mobsters" who attended a town hall meeting say that "the sleeping giant has been awakened". Has it? My husband and I went to a local "health care rally" and there was a wide assortment of people there, none of them wore a swastika or had the classic KKK attire. We were clean, wearing suitable summer attire - shorts, short sleeves, summer skirts, etc. We've been accused of being unruly mobs. Well, we're very upset, but not unruly mobs. We'll leave that up to Acorn! And, we're not very well organized. I saw a very grass roots group, not as Princess Pelosi states "astro-turf". I've been ready to march on DC since January, when do we do that????????????????? If this health care bill passes, the feds will have control of 47% of the nation's economy when you count in the auto companies, the banks, etc. That's scary. Folks we've been taken over by a man who hates this country and wants to get even. You don't have friends like he has, sit in a church with a pastor like he did, write the books he did, vote in congress like he did and come out with a "middle of the road" president. Now what do we do??? |
Diane
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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Posted - August 12 2009 : 11:28:43 AM
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| Di, - for those of us on "this side", work like hell in the coming 2010 elections. Donate what money you can afford, pick a candidate that best represents your views, and work for that candidate during his/her campaign. No matter what, BO's in there until at least 2012, - but we can at least take the air out of his balloon starting in 2010.The mid-term elections are REALLY critical for us. |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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Posted - August 12 2009 : 12:45:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Monadnock Guide
...we can at least take the air out of his balloon starting in 2010.
I think that he is getting a pretty good start on that all by himself. His approval ratings are dropping. "The Honeymoon is over."
As I told MG recently, I don't post very often in these threads, but I think you all know my feelings about Obama and his "wonderful" programs and the things he has done. In short, I am terrified. I am 62 years old and looking at retirement in a few years, if all goes well. I may not have enough to live on. I will be going on Medicare in 3 years. I simply don't want to even think about what is just around the bend for me and how these programs could affect me.
But, you know... there is one group here in Mohicanland that has been very quiet about all of this. I would be interested to know the thoughts of those who are Obama fans. Susquesus? Bookworm? What are your thoughts and opinions regarding the President's Health Care program, and the recent issue about turning in people who disagree?
And I am not asking this because I want to start another argument, at least not here in this thread. I am seriously curious. Has anything changed for you? Has your own approval rating on "your guy" gone down?
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"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
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Posted - August 12 2009 : 2:41:57 PM
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i still approve of him but have found this to be the wrong environment to bring it up. i don't feel like a fight every time i type something. me and all of my sick, evil, socialist, kool-aid drinking, cultural marxist, terrorist friends are still on board and still supportive.  |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - August 12 2009 : 4:29:24 PM
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| Sus, - with no name calling, what do you find attractive about this??? |
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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
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Posted - August 12 2009 : 4:40:44 PM
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MG- with respect- i thank you for the civilly tongued question. and though i'm sure some will accuse me of dodging- so be it- this is not a place i will share my opinions. there are several aspects of this plan that do indeed appeal to me. i have conservative friends that i can discuss this with at length. my father and brother included. we have mutual respect for each other and do not demonize each others viewpoints. i grew up on a farm and understand the rural perspective. i'm not as confused and lost as many folks will infer.
again- thank you for the question but i must decline an answer.
to all others- feel free to mock and belittle me. |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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Posted - August 12 2009 : 4:55:39 PM
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Understood, Sus. Thanks.
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"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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BookwormMG
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Posted - August 12 2009 : 9:25:59 PM
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Hi Joyce, it's me, formerly "Bookworm." For reasons unknown I could not sign on, the username and password that had been mine for years would not work, and the easiest thing to do was to start over. For the record, I do not suspect a Republican plot.
Sus, I hear you. My reasons for not posting are the same as yours. Why bother, when the response is inevitably going to be some variation on "cultural Marxist" (whatever that is) and similar insults? (BTW, you forgot "leech.") And HOW does one respond to assertions such as "Obama hates America" and "if Hitler were alive today, the DNC would run him as a candidate"? The latter is the most repellent statement I've read in political discourse in a long time, and, I might add, hardly fact-based. (There's that little matter of the Jews, for one thing.) I feel as though we're living on different planets. IMHO this board, which I used to love, has become a mean-spirited place and hardly worth visiting. Yes, I know we can avoid the political posts, but lately there's not much else here. When I've tried posting on non-political subjects, it seems like those posts generate little interest and are quickly overwhelmed by the next "Look what he's done now!" onslaught. If I wanted to visit a right-wing blog, I'd visit a right-wing blog.
But Joyce and Monadnock Guide have been so gracious in asking my opinion that I would like to respond. So, no, my opinion of President Obama -- still can't quite believe I get to type that phrase! -- has not wavered, and I don't expect it ever will. I admire him tremendously, support him enthusiastically, and am very, very grateful that he's there. As for the health care issue, here are my thoughts:
1) There is as yet no one "bill." There are several versions in the House and several in the Senate. Exhortations to "read the entire bill!" are a little premature, as are assertions that "this is what the plan does."
2) Medicare won't be abolished. President Obama has said it won't be, and the people currently or soon to be enrolled in it (an age group that votes in very high numbers) won't allow it to be.
3) There is nothing like a "death panel" in any version of the bill. The language that gave rise to that rumor provides that Medicare will reimburse a physician for discussing with a patient, once every five years and only at the patient's request, issues such as living wills, hospice care, etc. When you think of all the stories about cancer patients fighting with their insurers to have a certain treatment covered (President Obama says his mother was in that situation while dying of ovarian cancer), it seems like private insurers should be the ones tagged with having "death panels."
4) The public option (assuming such a provision makes it into the final bill) is intended to be self-sustaining, paying for itself from enrollees' premiums, not so low in cost as to undercut all the private insurance plans. As President Obama has noted, it makes no sense to argue on the one hand that government can't do anything competently and on the other hand that private insurers will be unable to compete with a public option plan.
5) Hopefully the final plan will preclude exclusions for pre-existing conditions as well as cancellation of coverage when one becomes really, expensively sick (i.e., when you finally need what you've been paying for all along). I don't know whether these exclusions are presently part of every version of the legislation. If you've heard that private insurers won't be allowed to add new enrollees if the legislation passes, this is what is being referred to -- they won't be allowed to add enrollees under their "old" policies until they comply with these requirements.
6) I think that some version of health insurance that is available to and affordable by everyone is absolutely essential not only in terms of the individual, but for the health of our society and economy. Not too long ago the local paper carried a story about a start-up computer business that wanted to hire more people, and experienced people working for large companies who wanted to go with the smaller and more innovative firm, but the former couldn't yet afford to offer health insurance and the latter couldn't afford to leave the larger companies that did provide it. If some form of affordable health insurance were available to everyone, the smaller firm would be growing, prospering, hiring still more employees, paying more taxes, etc. And that situation could be replicated many times over.
7) I don't think it was the administration's intention that citizens turn in the names of people who oppose the health care plan, but rather that supporters who see erroneous information (e.g., "death panels") -- in e-mails, in newspapers, on the web, whatever -- send it in so that accurate information can be sent out to counter it. During the presidential campaign Obama had a website (I think it was called "fight the smears") with a similar purpose. (And BTW, the Obama quote in my signature does NOT refer to the ease with which the President will extend total dictatorial control over the entire country!)
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Irishgirl
Council of Elders
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Posted - August 12 2009 : 11:13:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BookwormMG
IMHO this board, which I used to love, has become a mean-spirited place and hardly worth visiting. Yes, I know we can avoid the political posts, but lately there's not much else here. When I've tried posting on non-political subjects, it seems like those posts generate little interest and are quickly overwhelmed by the next "Look what he's done now!" onslaught. If I wanted to visit a right-wing blog, I'd visit a right-wing blog.
You are not alone Bookworm as myself and others who used to frequent the board feel the same way and I am not an Obama fan, far from it and oppose this Health Care Reform but that is the only discussion on the board these days. This board used to fun but it should now be known as some political discussion board and not The Mohican board. I check in occasionally but always the same stuff with posters being belittled by others who don't agree with them. Well enough of that. Just know others feel the same way. |
IG |
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BookwormMG
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Posted - August 13 2009 : 06:33:14 AM
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| Thanks, Irish, it was very kind of you to share those thoughts. It's kind of reassuring to know that someone with an opposing political viewpoint feels the same. |
"Glory, glory, hallelujah, welcome to the future!" -- Brad Paisley |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - August 13 2009 : 08:48:56 AM
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Nice to see you both again BW/(MG) & IG. I understand what you're saying BW, - but all one has to do is take a look at Medicare, (of which I'm part) to see what happens with a "single payer system" - which it really is. From it's very inception, it's costs doubled every four years from 1966 through 1980. It's growth as related to our economy, expressed as a percentage, is growing faster than any other segment, - by far. Social Security is probably a close second. While a single plan hasn't been put forth yet, - the basic outline of what this administration wants if fairly clear.
.
The nationalization of our heath care industry, - will result in a totally mind boggling bureaucracy, something right off the charts. If Medicare is used as a reasonable example of a Washington run heath care system, which it is - then what's being proposed, and what's coming down the road is essentially the take over our economy. What's being proposed today, and what we'll end up with are two different animals, - that's simply the way Washington works, and always has. I would easily agree with you about some changes being needed in our health care system, - but not this approach. ... Nice to see you both again, ... ;)
.
P.S. - BTW BW, I'd be VERY surprised if some sprt of "middle ground" approach isn't the final HC bill this Fall. For folks on "your side" probably not fast enough, - and for folks on "my side" way too fast. ;) |
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blackfootblood
Devoted Tribal Member
USA
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Posted - August 13 2009 : 10:29:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Irishgirl
quote:
Originally posted by BookwormMG
IMHO this board, which I used to love, has become a mean-spirited place and hardly worth visiting. Yes, I know we can avoid the political posts, but lately there's not much else here. When I've tried posting on non-political subjects, it seems like those posts generate little interest and are quickly overwhelmed by the next "Look what he's done now!" onslaught. If I wanted to visit a right-wing blog, I'd visit a right-wing blog.
You are not alone Bookworm as myself and others who used to frequent the board feel the same way and I am not an Obama fan, far from it and oppose this Health Care Reform but that is the only discussion on the board these days. This board used to fun but it should now be known as some political discussion board and not The Mohican board. I check in occasionally but always the same stuff with posters being belittled by others who don't agree with them. Well enough of that. Just know others feel the same way.
Well, I guess I will come out of the woodwork too. I feel the same way as both of you. I tried to, in the past, voice my opinion but was told I was completely wrong with how I felt. I too stated that some of the non-political posts were getting flushed out by all the political rants. But once again I was was told I was wrong. It's good to see some older members posting again and hearing what they have to say for a change. It gives "balance" to both sides. |
"Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain!"
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
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Posted - August 13 2009 : 10:37:45 AM
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Well, I was going to sit by and let BW and Sus have their say, but there are several 'facts' (or more correctly, quips) that require a response:
quote:
BookwormMG said: Why bother, when the response is inevitably going to be some variation on "cultural Marxist" (whatever that is) and similar insults?
Cultural Marxist is a description of a person who subscribes to the any/all of the beliefs espoused in the 'counter-culture' movement of the 1960's, which was in-turn sparked by self-described Cultural Marxists at the Frankfurt School in the late 1950's (Adorno, Horkheimer, Bloch, et.al) In short, it was a way of inculcating Marxist political/economic therory into a given country's culture (speech codes, 'aggrieved' groups, wealth redistribution, etc.)
Now the fact that you consider such a description an insult is something which only you, your conscience and your belief system can resolve.
quote:
BookwormMG added: (BTW, you forgot "leech.")
And if you remember, I gave the definition of that title, and the Zero-Liability Voter as well. If you can counter either one with any degree of logic, then please do; but for you just to dismissively label those titles as 'insults', does not bolster your argument.
quote:
BookwormMG then added: And HOW does one respond to assertions such as "Obama hates America" and "if Hitler were alive today, the DNC would run him as a candidate"? The latter is the most repellent statement I've read in political discourse in a long time, and, I might add, hardly fact-based.
Oh please, please, please tell me where my Hitler analogy is not fact-based. Unlike you, I actually gave examples of the similarities between Hitler and the modern DNC, and I stand by my statement as factual/logic-based; and I eagerly await to hear your fact-based and logical response.
As for you simply finding the Hitler analogy 'repellent', and failing to refute it, is laughable to say the least. Once again, it was a fact-based and logical comparrison. This of course is opposite to Rep. Pelosi's own comments about the counter-Healthcare Bill debate at town hall meetings, where she described such tax-paying citizens as 'astroturf' and 'nazis' (I wonder, what are your comments on the words of the U.S. Speaker of the House? Do they share the same 'repellent' accusation?)
Oh and BTW BW, if Obama loves America, why does he want to 'remake' it?
quote:
BookwormMG then continued: 1) There is as yet no one "bill." There are several versions in the House and several in the Senate. Exhortations to "read the entire bill!" are a little premature, as are assertions that "this is what the plan does."
Was it not then also 'premature' for Pres. Obama to push for a House vote on the Healthcare Bill before the August recess? (as he did in June) Oh and BTW, it was Obama who later asked lawmakers to "read the bill" during the recess (once it was determined that his 'before-recess' vote was not going to happen)
In Summary: The other points you made are debatable, since the arguments of either side can be read into the bill (Senate & House versions) as it currently exists (there have been several additions/changes since early July, and it is still being re-written/ammended/revised, etc.) My point is this, if such 'reform' is needed, why then doesn't the President, The Senate and the House of Represenatives lead the way, and be the first people to enroll in the public option? (which is still a part of this bill, as of this date)
YMH&OS,
The Sarge
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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Posted - August 13 2009 : 10:39:34 AM
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Mary! You had me going there for a minute! I took a look at your new handle and immediately wondered if you and MG had formed an... "alliance!"  I'm sure that our Sachem can fix that issue for you.
Thank you so much for that very clear, well-thought-out post. I really appreciate your opinions.
I still have much to learn about this proposed plan, and I know that you are right when you say that the versions that are in Congress now are not what will ultimately (and most likely) be passed. I hope that everyone involved will look at it very carefully so they can make the right decisions about it.
I am still very concerned and frightened about the whole thing. And yet.... I am very dissatisfied with what our health care system has become. Yes... I, too, had a fight with my insurance company over one of Gary's very expensive tests. Fortunately, I won. But it was just one more thing for a grieving widow to have to stress over.
But you know.... there is one good thing about all of this. It has gotten more people involved in political issues and decisions than I have seen in a very long time. Not since the Viet Nam War, in fact. You know what? Town Hall Meetings are good! Walks and demonstrations are good! They get people involved in this democracy. And yes... it still is a democracy! Each of us still has a voice in this country, through our votes and through the right to express our opinions in public places... even here on this board.
Thanks again, Mary!
And Irish... come back! You, too, Obi! Ignore all of this stuff, if it is not to your liking! Post in other threads.
I think I will go and do that right now!
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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Posted - August 15 2009 : 11:03:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by susquesus
MG- with respect- i thank you for the civilly tongued question. and though i'm sure some will accuse me of dodging- so be it- this is not a place i will share my opinions. there are several aspects of this plan that do indeed appeal to me. i have conservative friends that i can discuss this with at length. my father and brother included. we have mutual respect for each other and do not demonize each others viewpoints. i grew up on a farm and understand the rural perspective. i'm not as confused and lost as many folks will infer.
again- thank you for the question but i must decline an answer.
to all others- feel free to mock and belittle me.
Debate, or not, that is your choice. Sometimes, I'm not up to it myself. Certainly, I am not going to mock you, Susquesus. I don't think anyone else really is, either. Then again, it's a matter of perspective, I suppose. |
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