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LAST OF THE MOHICANS

The Last of the Mohicans ...

"All-new Director's Definitive Cut" coming this year!

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T O P I C R E V I E W
Flammable	Posted - April 25 2010 : 6:19:13 PM Hi people. "THE LAST OF THE MOHICANS All-new Directors Definitive Cut and interviews with Daniel Day Lewis" It looks like our dream is coming true! It seems Mann is re-editing the film once more! http://forums.highdefdigest.com/blu-ray-software-general-discussion/102715-fox-reveals-first-details-upcoming-blu-ray-releases.html http://andyfilm.netfirms.com/phpbb/nfphpbb/viewtopic.php?p=29499&sid=fc23ef9e386edc1bd9f0d300425a4665 Any thoughts?
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Robbman	Posted - August 13 2011 : 4:16:20 PM Flammable, I typed something up and kept it pretty much just about the Sachem scene.. it got kind of long, so I decided to keep it on that topic. If he responds at all, I'll follow up with more. I'll post it here when I get back to my home computer.
Flammable	Posted - August 02 2011 : 8:19:07 PM I share your passion for this film and if you read some of my old posts here you might find some ideas that you could use in your letter. If you are not in a hurry maybe you could send me the first version of your letter before mailing it and maybe I could contribute and give a second opinion?
Robbman	Posted - August 02 2011 : 5:06:32 PM quote: Originally posted by Flammable I agree with your analysis of the Sachem scene above and you should repeat it in your letter to Mann. I would also ask you to suggest that he go back to his original vision or atleast the theatreical vision and edit a new cut based on adding material to that version and not cutting it out. It was great already the first time around, no reason to cut anythin out, he only ends up hurting the film by constantly "tweaking" it. Also, I would like you to suggest to him using the europan blu-ray release which has not been released yet to use that opportunity to make a new edit of this film. I certainly don't mind doing that.. I'll probably link to this page even.. I'll post what I come up with here. I'm a little surprised I feel so strongly about all this.. but I do love this film. As a kid I loved Star Wars, and the Greedo shooting first alteration didn't bother me this much! lol.
Flammable	Posted - August 02 2011 : 08:05:47 AM I agree with your analysis of the Sachem scene above and you should repeat it in your letter to Mann. I would also ask you to suggest that he go back to his original vision or atleast the theatreical vision and edit a new cut based on adding material to that version and not cutting it out. It was great already the first time around, no reason to cut anythin out, he only ends up hurting the film by constantly "tweaking" it. Also, I would like you to suggest to him using the europan blu-ray release which has not been released yet to use that opportunity to make a new edit of this film.
Robbman	Posted - July 30 2011 : 11:35:12 AM After checking in here, I popped the movie back in to watch it last night. Some new thoughts upon repeat viewing. To add to Rich's detailed report above, the Massacre Valley scene is different, mostly in very subtle ways. The most noticeable is Magua's war cry in the woods to signal his men to attack en masse. They cut away just as he raises his rifle to a close shot of Hawkeye. You hear Magua's yelp as sounding very distant and then the very familiar chorus of war cries from his men and gunshots come in as we have seen it previously. I have no idea if this is perhaps a restoration of the scene as it was in the original theatrical release. I'm ambivalent about which version of this scene is better in relation to the movie itself. I like the old version better, but I don't think it has a different effect on the film.. unlike the Sachem scene. Speaking of which, after watching that again last night... I've decided to write Michael Mann about that and tell him my opinion on it.. respectfully, of course. One thing that is difficult to pinpoint are whether certain things are changes, or are just visible now in hi def on blu-ray. An example - In massacre valley, when the camera, from the procession's point of view, pans over the woods as Magua and his men are walking along with Munro's procession.. you can actually see Magua's men walking behind the trees. I'll need to pop in the Director's Cut DVD and see if that's there.. but again, another reason to get this on blu-ray.. that's not something I ever noticed before. This release is such a great tribute to Dante Spinotti's gorgeous cinematography. EDIT: Watching over some key scenes on DVD now to see the differences. The scene at massacre valley where they look into the woods is there in this release, but on the blu-ray its just much clearer, and as a result, I believe a little more menacing. You know, the quality of any video, DVD or blu-ray is a result of the original print quality and the transfer. I think the DVD could have been done better than it apparently is. It looks incredibly washed out compared to the blu-ray, and I believe that's just because they didn't have a good print or get a high quality transfer. The DVD is not bad, it's just not great. My guess is they made a new print for the blu-ray and they could get a better looking DVD out of it as well if they choose to put this version on a standard DVD, but I'm not sure how much demand they'd have for that. Blu-ray will always look superior to DVD.. but I think its important to distinguish that the LOTM DVD that is currently available is most likely not sourced from a comparable print as the new blu-ray, or the tranfer process has improved greatly since this DVD was done. Probably both.
Robbman	Posted - July 28 2011 : 7:19:19 PM So glad so many of you had the same reaction to the Sachem scene I did. I didn't pick up on the music, but with how it is now cut, it really doesn't matter. The whole thing that was cool about that was how everybody in his presence just shut up once he started to speak. It said a lot about his stature as leader that no one argued, that it was quiet (no music). That you don't argue with Sachem.. you do what he says and he gets the last word. All Hawkeye could do was offer a counterproposal. I'm still heart broken about that recut. It was that cool before. Mann is one of my favorite directors. I've loved a lot of his films, but this seems to be the only one he has the George Lucas disease on, as he keeps revising and tweaking it. I wish he'd just leave it alone. He says improve, but that's largely debatable, as we've all engaged in that discussion on here. To any of you who don't have a Blu-Ray, do yourself a favor and get one, get the correct cables and get a TV worth watching them on. Go here - www.blu-ray.com, to see what movies are worth getting in that format. Any cinephile should have one. Blu-ray is the best resolution you can get. Whether you download or stream or watch on an HD channel, its not as true of a quality as what you get from Blu-Ray on a a Hidef television. I can't recommend it enough, and this movie really showcases how great the format is.
Flammable	Posted - July 12 2011 : 5:36:41 PM I have now seen the blu-ray since it can be found as a torrent file from the net. Mann still didn't get it right. Especially disappointing is how the scene with Sachem is edited in a new way and music added to the background. It is absolutely unbelievable why Mann would screw this scene up; the scene does not have the same power it used to. Instead of screwing with the dialogue he could have instead added some dialog for Sachem or something. Now the heated argument between Hawkeye and Magua does not seem right. And the music addition in the background is just distracting. Why, Mann, Why?! Sachems dialogue about 'the white man came...' feels so out of place. And I don't like why he had to cut down some of the dialogue again (for example in the scene) between Montcalm and Magua. Atleast we get two lines of unseen dialogue from Montcalm. I bet Mann could easily expand on the dialogue of the movie. That is what he should have done in the first place with this new cut. For some reason Mann seems to insist on keeping the movie at a certain lenght. C'mon, Mann! Take a artistic chance and give us a true new edit: expanding the movie and not remixing it. It is not like you have anything to loose. I like to fact that some scenes are a second or two longer then we've seen before in any other version and some new camera angles which work well for me. The editing of the scene under the waterfall where Mann has cut Cora's dialogue in the middle is just... not working. Feels awkward and one can clearly see it is cut in the middle. And the dynamic level of the sound mix is not very good; at points it is almost too quiet and then suddenly a musket or similar explodes. And the music in the spectacular end scene is too low and some of the effects are compressed in a way that the sound level differs in a annoying way; for example when Magua cuts Uncas' throat the sound of the knife is too low and I think I can hear a compressor or similar going into effect. Still the two best cuts of the movie are the theatrical cut and the first Director's cut(meaning the first edition; the director's expanded cut. The second director's cut which was not this definitive cut but that widescreen picture quality update thing had a better picture quality but the sound levels and dynamics are so bad in that release that I can't watch it; shows how important the sound mix is to the movie. So, the first two cuts are for me. The rest(the two others including this 'definitive cut' are Mann loosing his way. It's ironic that even though the first expanded edition is the best one for me the picture quality is not as good as in these two later versions. But the sound is right on. By the way, this blu-ray release is way too dark and too yellow in some places so the complaints in my opinion are justified. Well, here are a few of my first thoughts after seeing the new cut. On a side note: I've disliked in every version of the movie the music that plays in the background when Heyward and Hawkeye are talking in the beginning of the movie beside the water fall/river after the ambush. It's pointless and doesn't add anything to the scene. The scene "a scout then?" would be better without the background music.
Fitzhugh Williams	Posted - March 06 2011 : 6:45:19 PM I guess what you need to do is get three TV's, put them side-by-side, and start them at the same time.
RedFraggle	Posted - March 06 2011 : 4:49:22 PM quote: Originally posted by richfed -- The Uncas/Alice hot & juicy sex scene is ... IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well, maybe I dreamed that. . . . I think that's it, but I must confess, I was watching this AND the Duke/Tarheels NCAA basketball game simultaneously; good to know that I can still multi-task, but I may have missed something somewhere ... Ah, Rich, you made me laugh! And I sincerely hope you were rooting for the right side in that NCAA game (says a gal who spent six years of her life as a Tarheel). Now I think I'll have to get the BluRay version of this movie and watch all three versions back to back. As many times as I've seen this film/these films, I can't for the life of me recall what the added footage at the Camerons' cabin entails, or the extra shot of Hawkeye and Cora hugging. It's too bad Duncan's diversion didn't make it into the BluRay. I rather liked that scene. It shows the good Major can actually do something other than get his breeches in a twist about Cora's rejection.
Fitzhugh Williams	Posted - March 06 2011 : 2:34:49 PM As to the "making of LOTM", I have often thought that it would make a great DVD if someone could follow Eric Hurley around at one of the Gatherings and put everything he says on film. Granted it would be a LONG DVD, but it would be one well worth watching. And definitely one for any LOTM lover's archives.
richfed	Posted - March 06 2011 : 10:48:08 AM Finally, I have seen this blu-ray version of LOTM, the Definitive Director's Cut. I viewed it on a laptop, so it certainly didn't look as good as it should on a big screen TV, but nonetheless, the clarity is startling -- particularly in the daylight scenes. As mentioned above, it is a combo of the theatrical and extended versions, but more closely, I think, resembles the theatrical. I'll go through the "changes" that I noticed, but first ... "The Making of ..." Good piece of memorabilia ... parts of it had already been released and can be viewed on this web site. This one, though, runs some 40-45 minutes. Includes clips from the film, from the set and recent interviews with Michael Mann, Daniel Day-Lewis, and Madeleine Stowe [who has never looked more gorgeous!!], plus Trevor Jones, Dante Spinotti, Maurice Roeves and others. It focuses on the training, shooting, locations, music, history --- everything! Some great shots, including a good, albeit quick, view of Eric Hurley training with the cadre. All in all, it made the disk worth the price. There is also an option for a Michael Mann commentary over the film [I have not yet listened to that], and a couple of theatrical trailers, including the one posted here by Flammable. OK ... what's in; what's not? Here's what I noticed: -- The menu screen is much better than that on the DVD. Has a nice video montage set to the Fort Battle music that engages you right away. -- The extra footage at Cameron's Cabin [from the DVD] is cut. -- The extra footage at Webb's HQs is left in. -- The extra footage at Albany [tea scene] is cut. -- The extra footage of troops heading into the wilderness is in. -- "Clear it up any?" is still left out. -- Burial Ground scene is a mix of the two ... "Breed apart" line is back in, though. -- The extra footage at the Fort Battle is in. Maybe a tad different? -- "Just dropped in to see how you boys ..." line is still left out. -- The extra footage under Montcalm's tent is still in and slightly different. -- The courier diversion scene is cut!! Boooooooooooo! -- "Serious disagreement ... " line is back in. -- The extra footage at the parlay scene is still in. -- The Magua/Montcalm meeting on the lake is a mix: reference to Le Subtil is removed; "Lillies of France" line is left in. -- Scene of the Indians heading into the fort to pillage is cut. -- "Nothing better to do on the lake ..." line is still missing. -- The Uncas/Alice hot & juicy sex scene is ... IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well, maybe I dreamed that. -- As IWLFNDU said, the "I will find you" scene is different, but not for the better ... Cora's "If only one of us survives ... " line is inexplicably cut. -- Clannad's "I Will Find You" is back in! -- The extra footage as the captives are led along the trail at sunset/sunrise is left in. -- The village scene -- hmmm ... maybe something is different? But, I honestly don't think it's anything major. I'm not sure about that scene ... it's been a while ... In this one viewing, I did not get a different feel for the flow. ---> Interjection: the CRP cliffs look magnificent in HD!!! -- After Magua's death, the scene of Cora and Hawkeye hugging is back in. -- The last scene has reverted to the theatrical version, with Ching's added footage cut. All in all, it's clearly a mix of the previously released versions with nothing really new in the movie itself. If you like the theatrical version better than the expanded version, this is a step in the right direction, but you will still probably prefer the theatrical. DVD lovers will miss a couple of extended scenes. For the record, the silver busses and blue cap/megaphone are still a part of this movie. I think that's it, but I must confess, I was watching this AND the Duke/Tarheels NCAA basketball game simultaneously; good to know that I can still multi-task, but I may have missed something somewhere ...
Flammable	Posted - February 27 2011 : 1:54:56 PM Michael Mann talks about the LOTM blu-ray starting at around 19:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_AT19-2Q-g Note: he says "... and every opportunity I get to go back and ... improve it I do..." Maybe there is still hope to see more of this movie. The one hope would be the fact that Fox only has the distribution rights to this film in the US and Morgan Creek has the rights world wide. If Morgan Creek company could be informed about this maybe they could have Mann edit a new version for the European market for example. Does anyone know where to write if I want to write Michael Mann a snail letter? I think snail mail is more effective than email. He's fan club, manager, or company or whatever? I'm serious about this. Send me a private message or something if you know because I'm going to write him a lenghty letter about this movie. Also, I'd appreciate if somebody can point me in the right direction about whom to write about this movie and possible releases for example the people at Fox or at Morgan Creek who own the material?
IWLFNDU	Posted - February 22 2011 : 5:22:39 PM It's like he's cutting someone's hair, and instead of leaving well enough alone, he keeps going back to cut and "tweak" and after a while, it just looks odd. And that's never good!
Robbman	Posted - February 17 2011 : 08:35:44 AM Great post IWLFNDU. Sounds like you walked away with many of the same feelings I had of the Blu-Ray. I really don't understand much of Mann's motivation on continuing to recut this movie. A few months later, and I still haven't warmed to the new Sachem scene. It really changes the dynamic of that scene, and I think for the worse. I'm not exactly upset about making changes to the film, but when you alter something that effectively changes how a pivotal scene unfolds. You see the character of Sachem differently. Certainly not effective, to me. I just can't understand what makes Micheal Mann think this would be better.
RedFraggle	Posted - February 11 2011 : 11:45:20 PM Thanks for the review of the "definitive" version. I just watched the director's cut last night, and I had forgotten how many good lines were cut from it. (I, too, would like to see the original theatrical release on DVD or Blu-Ray; I have the old VHS tape but not the by-now-ancient technology to play it on!) I'll probably still get the "definitive" version, in the end. Thanks for the tip about the HDMI cable, too. Will have to look into that.
IWLFNDU	Posted - February 03 2011 : 9:02:30 PM The stars aligned, and I actually have the blu-ray, definitive cut version now, so here are my thoughts and biases: Overall, I thought it was much truer to the theatrical release, which I prefer, than the directors cut. However, there were some differences here and there with some things from the directors cut left in and some things from the theatrical release put back, i.e. some of our favorite lines from Hawkeye were still cut as they were in the directors cut, but the serious disagreement line was put back! Yet, the line from Cora under the waterfallthe I will find you scene--was cut though--the if only one of us survives, something of the other does, too. Yes, that was cut. However, most of these changes were no big deal. Anyway, the biggest difference wasas mentioned previouslythe sachem scene. Instead of a more Sachem speaks as there was in the theatrical release, there was a more back-and-forth between the sachem and Magua. Basically, the sachems speech is cut in half as is the back-and-forth presentation of arguments between Hawkeye and Magua to the sachem. So, each part, if you will, is cut in half, and then alternated: Magua and Hawkeye go back and forth then Sachem interjects. Magua replies and Hawkeye comments, then Sachem makes his decision. If you had never seen the movie before, Im sure you would be none the wiser, but this is coming from someone who has seen every version of itthe most being the theatrical release. Please be aware that Im not as well versed on the directors cutonly seeing it maybe three or four times altogether. Bottom line as far as the story goes: the definitive cut is different than the theatrical release; however, it isnt so much so that you cant get over itmaybe not just prefer itstill (wheres the 3+ hour version?). But, I do prefer it over the directors cut because it is seems to me more like the theatrical release even if the sachem scene was quite noticeably changed. HOWEVER!!! I WILL say that the scenery in the definitive cut is ABSOLUTELY STUNNING!!!! The foliage of gorgeous NC, the rock face of our beloved Chimney Rock, the water from Hickory Nut Falls, Natures Showerbath, and the Nolichucky is just AMAZING! Its like you are right there in person with everyone. And Ill say that despite my seeing this movie many, many, many, many times over the last 19 years, I noticed nuances and details I have never noticed before. The HD of the blu-ray allowed me to see details and moments that I never would have seen, and I have to say that the color of thingscostuming especiallyseemed truer and sharper. To any one else, it may not be a big deal, but to a Mohicanite, its AWESOME!!! SO! Will it be the miss of a lifetime if you dont get it? No. However, it does give this Mohicaniteor any other for that matter--a whole new appreciation for the movie. The detail is amazing and really gives the location backdrop in particular its role as it meant to have been. PS: I see comments and reviews on how dark the definitive cut is. For this format, you cannot use your regular connector. You HAVE to use HDMI connectorbasically, the top of the line connector. Otherwise, dont bother. You wont be able to see much, especially in the wooded or night scenes.
Wilderness Woman	Posted - February 03 2011 : 12:45:56 PM A friend of mine just recently purchased the Blue-Ray version, and he said that while the quality and color is exquisite... there were no additional scenes added. He has watched the movie at least as many times as many of us here, so he would pick up on any new, previously unseen material. Sorry, folks.......
Fitzhugh Williams	Posted - February 03 2011 : 09:43:06 AM So, is the Blu-Ray version the same as the one you downloaded? Meaning that the Blu-Ray version is the same as the one I have on VHS?
richfed	Posted - February 03 2011 : 09:15:44 AM Well, that was a dud ... The download turned out to be the theatrical version [which, actually might be an incentive for some? ], but the quality is simply horrible. So, Blu-Ray version is on its way ... someday I'll find a player to watch it on.
richfed	Posted - February 02 2011 : 11:58:28 AM Amazon is now selling the Blu-Ray edition of this movie for just $15.99, which includes a download Mac/PC version. So, though I don't have a Blu-Ray player, I can watch it on my computer. Being the webmaster of a Mohicans site, I figure it's high time I see this thing. I will report on this edition after I watch it. If you have a high speed connection, you may be interested, player or no ... Here's a link to the Blu-Ray & download edition: Last of the Mohicans Blu-Ray cut PS - The download is only good for 24 hours after you begin the view. You have about a month to start it after downloading.
richfed	Posted - December 19 2010 : 09:48:36 AM OK ... has ANYONE else seen this version and care to provide a detailed report? I, for one, am curious!!!!
winglo	Posted - November 20 2010 : 6:44:35 PM quote: Originally posted by Robbman I just picked this up on blu-ray. In short, I would say if you have a blu-ray player, get it. If you're thinking of picking up a Blu-ray player and are waiting for a favorite movie of yours to come out on blu-ray, then this is a good opportunity to pick one up. Good idea, Robbman. Maybe I will get one. They cost less than $150 now, I think.
richfed	Posted - November 06 2010 : 10:59:07 AM You know, I don't think there is a commentary on the DVD ... don't recall one, anyway.
Robbman	Posted - November 03 2010 : 7:28:56 PM One more thing.. was their a commentary with Mann on the DVD? The Blu-ray has it, and it was apparently recently recorded as he mentions Avatar. Curious if we got two different commentaries, which could be cool.
Robbman	Posted - November 02 2010 : 5:00:31 PM Oh my.. they've recut the Sachem sequence. This is one of my favorite scenes, and they've changed around the sequence of certain dialouge pieces. It does not work near as well, but I can't figure out if that's because I'm so used to the way it was. I need to think about the sequences that were repositioned and see if I at least agree with the new placement. I thought that scene was so beautiful... how Sachem listens to everyone then makes his complete statement, switching mid-speeech from French to Huron. Now its all jumbled up. It feels clunkily edited now, the flow of the speech completely disrupted and I think it takes away from the coherence of Sachem's overall statement as well as his countenance. I never cared much for the whole Han / Greedo argument, never really bothered me one way or the other... but this... jeez.

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