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The Last of the Mohicans ...

Couple of questions about the unreleased alternate versions and how to find them

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[quote][i]Originally posted by Flammable[/i]
[br]Hello everybody!

I am a big fan of this movie and I am very interested about the rumoured alternate versions of this film. 
I have read all the relevant posts scrolling thru this forum. Still this is my first post here so be gentle because I don't really know the scene you guys have here yet and if what I am writing about has already been discussed :) I am determined to find out as much info as possible about the alternate versions and possibly - if they do exist - get myself copies!

So, I've read the rumours that there was originally a three hour cut of this great film. Where does this information come from? Are we sure that the three hour version was not a demo or a pre-mix send to the big shots at the film studio to show a rough cut of what could be included in the final edit OR was this really Mann's first vision of what the movie should be like in theaters? I have not found any real proof about this three hour cut. The only thing I've found mentioning this version is imdb but there is no source to check where that information comes from!

In the trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn7UHJLcPp4 for this movie you can see a clip from the diversion by Duncan which was NOT in the theaterical cut so it means Mann must have made the final edit of the theaterical version AFTER all the promotion had been made for the movie using a different mix than what was seen in theaters. This could be considered a proof that there was atleast a bit different cut before the theaterical release took its final form. This version must have been what was shown to critics and test audiences most likely. So, we can be pretty sure there is atleast one other version out there besides the theaterical cut and the Director's expanded edition.

Adn now I will get to the main point of my post. 
IF there were these possibly two and for sure atleast one alternate versions of the movie there HAS TO BE copies floating around somewhere. Have you people ever tried organising something to find bootleg copies of these versions? In the music industry it is very common that alternate versions of albums, studio sessions and such can be found in the hands of serious collectors and there must be a similar scene around movies. So, since Michael Mann has pretty much lost interest concerning LOTM and it is in my opinion very unlikely that he would release another version of the movie why not try to find and get these versions some other way?
I have found proof that there is LOTM bootleg material available atleast to some extent. Watch this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxSc9Ts4374 This is 'video assist footage' on set! I haven't been able to contact the uploader because he only accepts messages from friends. I did send him a friend request a day ago but he hasn't yet replied. The uploader might be a key or a link in finding new material/alternate versions! I mean he must have got that material from someone who worked at the crew or someone who has access to more material than what we have seen.

If some of you have information about how to find these alternate versions and can't/wont share it publicly send me a private message.

Thank you for reading if you made it this far! :) Now let's all get our brains working and figure out how to finally see the alternate versions! They must be in existence somewhere.
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T O P I C R E V I E W
Flammable	Posted - October 18 2009 : 7:00:22 PM Hello everybody! I am a big fan of this movie and I am very interested about the rumoured alternate versions of this film. I have read all the relevant posts scrolling thru this forum. Still this is my first post here so be gentle because I don't really know the scene you guys have here yet and if what I am writing about has already been discussed :) I am determined to find out as much info as possible about the alternate versions and possibly - if they do exist - get myself copies! So, I've read the rumours that there was originally a three hour cut of this great film. Where does this information come from? Are we sure that the three hour version was not a demo or a pre-mix send to the big shots at the film studio to show a rough cut of what could be included in the final edit OR was this really Mann's first vision of what the movie should be like in theaters? I have not found any real proof about this three hour cut. The only thing I've found mentioning this version is imdb but there is no source to check where that information comes from! In the trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn7UHJLcPp4 for this movie you can see a clip from the diversion by Duncan which was NOT in the theaterical cut so it means Mann must have made the final edit of the theaterical version AFTER all the promotion had been made for the movie using a different mix than what was seen in theaters. This could be considered a proof that there was atleast a bit different cut before the theaterical release took its final form. This version must have been what was shown to critics and test audiences most likely. So, we can be pretty sure there is atleast one other version out there besides the theaterical cut and the Director's expanded edition. Adn now I will get to the main point of my post. IF there were these possibly two and for sure atleast one alternate versions of the movie there HAS TO BE copies floating around somewhere. Have you people ever tried organising something to find bootleg copies of these versions? In the music industry it is very common that alternate versions of albums, studio sessions and such can be found in the hands of serious collectors and there must be a similar scene around movies. So, since Michael Mann has pretty much lost interest concerning LOTM and it is in my opinion very unlikely that he would release another version of the movie why not try to find and get these versions some other way? I have found proof that there is LOTM bootleg material available atleast to some extent. Watch this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxSc9Ts4374 This is 'video assist footage' on set! I haven't been able to contact the uploader because he only accepts messages from friends. I did send him a friend request a day ago but he hasn't yet replied. The uploader might be a key or a link in finding new material/alternate versions! I mean he must have got that material from someone who worked at the crew or someone who has access to more material than what we have seen. If some of you have information about how to find these alternate versions and can't/wont share it publicly send me a private message. Thank you for reading if you made it this far! :) Now let's all get our brains working and figure out how to finally see the alternate versions! They must be in existence somewhere.
6 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
James N.	Posted - November 19 2009 : 2:39:14 PM Flammable, You have misunderstood me - I have absolutely NOTHING like that from Mohicans, ONLY Alamo - The Price of Freedom. The only "bootleg" anything I have from Mohicans are the photos I surreptiously took while working on the crew. ( Mann prohibited use of personal cameras on set. ) You will find them in the account I wrote for this site at the following location: http://www.mohicanpress.com/jim_neels_mohicanland.html The only versions I have seen are the original theatrical ( many times! ); the VHS; and now the so-called "Director's Cut" DVD. I can certainly vouch for the changes between the two, since I all but disappeared from the finished product by the time it reached the VHS format. I don't appear AT ALL in the tape ( unless possibly in a widescreen version ), due to the cropping for fullscreen and use of different camera angles in the "Montcalm's Tent" scene. It was partly for that reason I was very glad to see those angles restored for the Director's Cut; plus finally the inclusion of what I thought was the very important "Heyward's Diversion" sequence. As I noted, it would be fun to see more of it, but doubt it would really add to the finished product other than as a curiousity.
Flammable	Posted - November 18 2009 : 8:36:31 PM quote: Originally posted by James N. HOWEVER - I am in possession of a rough cut VHS tape bootleged to those of us involved in the project by another reenactor "higher up" on the food chain. He dubbed off copies for us while we were similliarly involved filming Glory in 1989. This runs about 75 min. as I remember, including footage of several subplots that disappeared during editing for the IMAX version. BUT...Although it's fun to see scenes we'd filmed and forgotten, in many cases there were VERY valid reasons ( other than those I already mentioned ) they didn't survive "the cut". Many were HORRIBLE, mainly due to the poor acting by the largely novice cast which included many reenactors, including myself! Hi there! Yes, the three hour cut is probably a false rumour. I haven't been able to find ANY proof of it except imdb where it says the first cut Mann made of this movie was three hours in lenght but the film studio wanted it cut shorter. "The film was originally scheduled for a Summer 1992 release, as the teaser posters said, but when Michael Mann's first version clocked in at three hours, he was told by Fox to cut the film down and the release was postponed to September. Mann was never happy with the resulting two hour version, feeling he had not had enough time to properly trim it, and so Fox allowed him to re-edit it entirely for the 1999 DVD release. Although only a few minutes longer, the new version features minor changes throughout the film. It is Mann's preferred version and the only one available on DVD in the US." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104691/trivia It doesn't say where this info comes from! However, it is for sure there was a slightly longer cut before the final cut we today call 'the theatrical cut'. I have no idea why Mann couldn't release this version of the movie as the director's cut but instead he edited the film again and very poorly by taking good lines and scenes out of it. Basically I wish he would have cut nothing(except the Clannad song which I don't like at all) out of the film and instead just added more. The theatrical cut was way too compressed; it is basically just 1 hours of running! Mann really should have put about 15-20 minutes more to build up the characters. Anyway, I would be very interested to see possible extra footage/bootleg material you may have of this film. Would it be too much to ask if you could upload some of your stuff somewhere when you have the time? Also I have to ask is it possible you may still have connections to those higher up in the food chain and possible try to find even more material then what you have now? I am absolutely sure there were copies made in every step of the cutting process and I find it extremely hard to believe they would have destroyed them. Even if they are out of our reach these edits are still somewhere.
James N.	Posted - November 18 2009 : 6:29:56 PM As someone involved in the filming, I will agree there were certainly things left out. However, I doubt you could get an entire third hour out of the excised footage, other than by possibily including almost all the raw footage, much of which would merely duplicate that which already exists. In example of what I'm talking about, let me relate it to another production I worked on, Kieth Merril's 1987 IMAX movie The Alamo - The Price Of Freedom. That still exists as an attraction in the downtown San Antonio IMAX theatre located one block from the Alamo. In its finished form it runs somewhere around 45 minutes, mainly due to two factors: 1) the desire to be able to show it once every hour in a theater with only one projector; and 2) the fact that the 70mm reel for it will only hold that much film! HOWEVER - I am in possession of a rough cut VHS tape bootleged to those of us involved in the project by another reenactor "higher up" on the food chain. He dubbed off copies for us while we were similliarly involved filming Glory in 1989. This runs about 75 min. as I remember, including footage of several subplots that disappeared during editing for the IMAX version. BUT...Although it's fun to see scenes we'd filmed and forgotten, in many cases there were VERY valid reasons ( other than those I already mentioned ) they didn't survive "the cut". Many were HORRIBLE, mainly due to the poor acting by the largely novice cast which included many reenactors, including myself! I also recently watched the so-called Special Edition of Glory which included two "deleted scenes" with commentary by Ed Zwick as to why he axed them from the final release. In both cases they were scenes I don't remember at all, and would have added NOTHING to the final version. I think it would be interesting to see similliar cuts from Mohicans, but similliarly doubt any would really add to the finished product, except maybe as curiousities.
richfed	Posted - October 24 2009 : 10:45:13 AM From our Director's Cut/Drive Page - This stuff is a very long time ago for me. Memory fades. Maybe there was no mention here of a THREE hour cut, but clearly there was one that was longer than what we have seen: ________________________________________________________ One contact of ours has seen the preview version! Ros (known as Magua's Moll in the Off The Beaten Trail section of this Site) tells us more ... "As best I can remember, the beginning was longer with more development of the characters. For example, there is a longer time spent in the Cameron's cabin where the whole explanation of the French battling the English, the need for the militia and which Indians are supporting whom and why is discussed. Hawkeye also talks about why he and Uncas and Chingachgook are not participating. It is a nice anti-war speech. There is also a longer time spent during the lacrosse match. And the arrival of Heyward with Cora is more detailed with him expressing his love and their past together. The journey through the woods, following Magua, is more involved. Alice becomes faint which is why Cora asks Heyward to stop, There is also a scene, somewhere hereabouts, that Magua plans the attack, so you know why he wants to continue walking. There are some scenes of great affection between Alice and Uncas and it is clear they love each other. And at the beginning Cora and Alice spend time with some of their father's army men so that when they arrive at William Henry, the characters they meet at the hospital etc. are not new to the audience. Now that is all I can remember at this time. The movie was just developed more and provided for better continuity, I think. I will keep trying to get a copy. Hope this helps ... Ros"
Flammable	Posted - October 19 2009 : 8:05:35 PM Thanks for replying! I just read the interview with Russell Means and this is an exact quote from the interview: "Michael Mann's cut, was two hours long," No mention about a three hour cut! It would be greately appreciated if somebody could give me a link to a source to confirm the three hour cut. And yes, I do know these alternate versions that I am talking about are not on the market, that is not what I meant. What I meant is that since these versions were once edited there has to be copies of these edits somewhere and since Mann refuses/doesn't have any interest in releasing these the only possibility to see these versions is to find black market copies AND that copies of these unreleased versions just might be in the hands of movie fanatics/collectors who collect rarities. At this moment it seems the only possibility to see these versions is to get in touch with people who might know where to find them. Again, they are somewhere out there, and yes it is possible only a few copies were made and these could be locked in a vault somewhere out of our reach but what I believe is very much possible is that there were multiple copies made and spread around to people who were involved more or less with the making of the film. And usually these copies get spread around over time. And no, I have no connections nor do I know where to start but if I have understood correctly there are people here who might have some sort of connections where to start asking questions ;) I have been collecting bootlegs of my favorite bands for years and this strategy in obtaining rarities is common practice among the collectors. I believe this approach to finding these films is the only chance there is to see these alternate versions. And I must add it is not too rare to find unreleased rarities from places like Ebay. This is not the easy way but this strategy might be something worth looking into! What do you think? Any ideas?
richfed	Posted - October 19 2009 : 6:36:43 PM Hi Flammable! Welcome. Jeez ... this is straining my memory, but I believe if you read the Russell Means interview we did here on this site --- or, maybe it's in a bit in the Mohican Musings??? - you will find direct evidence that there was indeed a 3 hr cut of the film that FOX made Mann edit down to more palpable [under] 2 hours. To my knowledge, there are no existing versions of this anywhere on the market. I would deeply doubt that. The excerpt of the diversion in the trailer is seen in the extended edition, though, is it not? Hope that helps a little.

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