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Yet Another Word on Alice & Uncas' Tryst

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		$computer woes {CW:_(}$

[quote][i]Originally posted by James N.[/i]
[br]As I have just posted on another thread, I'm taking a "Walk Down Memory Lane" by reviewing the copy of the script I saved back in '91 when I left the production.  I decided to look up that endlessly fascinating and much-discussed supposed "love/sex scene" between our favorite "star-crossed lovers", Alice and Uncas.  This is directly verbatim in its entirety from p.95, Revised 6/11/91:

443  ALICE
looks at the sky through the fissure.  She sees the starfields and feels the silver moonlight pull her forward.  She starts out onto the island, oblivious, unaware she'll expose them.
Suddenly...

444  UNCAS
yanks her down next to him.  He pulls her head into his chest, looking out over the edge, his tomahawk in front of him, his musket near his right hand.  There's no sign she was seen.

445  UNCAS + ALICE 
He relaxes, looks at her and puts his finger to his lips telling her to be silent.  She closes her eyes, terrified.  He strokes her shoulders and back, her hair...

446  ALICE
Oblivion disappears.  It's replaced with escalating fear.  She grasps Uncas with desparation.  Her fingers claw his shoulders.  She buries her face in his chest.
                    ALICE
           Uncas...
The wave of terror is total total. (Sic) He tries to restrain and calm her.  She won't let him.  In despair and fear and wanting life and safe refuge, she holds onto Uncas.  And Uncas strokes and comforts her and holds her close.  Sensuality becomes erotic and poignant for them and captured by the closeness and passion he makes love with her in the half light.

447  UNCAS
his hand buried in her hair irradiated by the moon, then she begins to cry softly in his arms, her optimism gone.  He clutches her to him.  Her expression has completely changed.

448  OMITTED

CUT TO

And there you have it - sort of.  At least that was the intent as of 6/11/91.  No doubt there were further endless revisions prior to the actual filming of that particular scene, just like all the other scenes.  Of course, the real question is EXACTLY what was meant by the direction, "he makes love with her"; but at this late date this is about as close as we can come to the "original intent" of the screenwriters!
[/quote]

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T O P I C R E V I E W
James N.	Posted - May 05 2008 : 9:31:47 PM As I have just posted on another thread, I'm taking a "Walk Down Memory Lane" by reviewing the copy of the script I saved back in '91 when I left the production. I decided to look up that endlessly fascinating and much-discussed supposed "love/sex scene" between our favorite "star-crossed lovers", Alice and Uncas. This is directly verbatim in its entirety from p.95, Revised 6/11/91: 443 ALICE looks at the sky through the fissure. She sees the starfields and feels the silver moonlight pull her forward. She starts out onto the island, oblivious, unaware she'll expose them. Suddenly... 444 UNCAS yanks her down next to him. He pulls her head into his chest, looking out over the edge, his tomahawk in front of him, his musket near his right hand. There's no sign she was seen. 445 UNCAS + ALICE He relaxes, looks at her and puts his finger to his lips telling her to be silent. She closes her eyes, terrified. He strokes her shoulders and back, her hair... 446 ALICE Oblivion disappears. It's replaced with escalating fear. She grasps Uncas with desparation. Her fingers claw his shoulders. She buries her face in his chest. ALICE Uncas... The wave of terror is total total. (Sic) He tries to restrain and calm her. She won't let him. In despair and fear and wanting life and safe refuge, she holds onto Uncas. And Uncas strokes and comforts her and holds her close. Sensuality becomes erotic and poignant for them and captured by the closeness and passion he makes love with her in the half light. 447 UNCAS his hand buried in her hair irradiated by the moon, then she begins to cry softly in his arms, her optimism gone. He clutches her to him. Her expression has completely changed. 448 OMITTED CUT TO And there you have it - sort of. At least that was the intent as of 6/11/91. No doubt there were further endless revisions prior to the actual filming of that particular scene, just like all the other scenes. Of course, the real question is EXACTLY what was meant by the direction, "he makes love with her"; but at this late date this is about as close as we can come to the "original intent" of the screenwriters!
24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Obediah	Posted - May 12 2008 : 4:49:42 PM quote: Originally posted by Wilderness Woman quote: Originally posted by Obediah I know that for the reenactors (the real stars of the movie), it was quite an emotional event to film Pickett's Charge on the actual ground at Gettysburg... I have heard from re-enactors who were there and were part of that scene, that there were many men who actually broke down and sobbed. The realism was so great and the feeling of brotherhood with those original men was so strong, that it was almost too much to bear. I can only imagine what it must have been like. Exactly the same thing happened after Pickett's Charge in '88.
caitlin	Posted - May 12 2008 : 4:10:36 PM Memorial Day Weekend 2000 we took a road trip to Gettysburg because we knew we were going to move out West and didn't know when we would get another chance to go there. It was a rainy overcast weekend - a somberness in the air as we walked around the battlefields of Gettysburg. Emotions ran high and it is something I will never forget. It was truly an experience...
Wilderness Woman	Posted - May 12 2008 : 12:41:01 PM quote: Originally posted by Obediah I know that for the reenactors (the real stars of the movie), it was quite an emotional event to film Pickett's Charge on the actual ground at Gettysburg... I have heard from re-enactors who were there and were part of that scene, that there were many men who actually broke down and sobbed. The realism was so great and the feeling of brotherhood with those original men was so strong, that it was almost too much to bear. I can only imagine what it must have been like.
winglo	Posted - May 11 2008 : 4:32:32 PM quote: Originally posted by James N. In order for me to "match" my appearance as a company officer of the 54th, make-up scrounged around and found the beard worn earlier by the actor playing Frederick Douglass! They had saved it in case they needed additional shots of him. It was then cut down to the appropriate mutton-chop shape for ME! So things like that CAN & DO happen! That is too funny. . .and very interesting. I loved Glory. I get all patriotic and emotional every time I watch Matthew Broderick lead his men up the hill against the odds at the end of the movie. It was very well done. In fact, it was so well done that my husband, who teaches graduate school psychology, uses clips of the dynamics that went on between the lead actors to teach group theory to his students.
James N.	Posted - May 11 2008 : 12:19:32 PM Don't joke about recycling beards - on "Glory" I wore the "Burnsides" that were my trademark for years reenacting. But to change my appearance for the "Antietam" sequence ( which was filmed LAST, near Atlanta! ); I shaved, leaving only my mustache. On the very last day of filming, the director wanted another shot of Matthew Broderick watching as the town of Darien burns. A busload of black teenagers from Atlanta was outfitted for their ONLY appearance in the film to march behind him. ( This does NOT show at all in the finished film - just a close-up of Broderick, with part of a fake burning "house" behind him. ) In order for me to "match" my appearance as a company officer of the 54th, make-up scrounged around and found the beard worn earlier by the actor playing Frederick Douglass! They had saved it in case they needed additional shots of him. It was then cut down to the appropriate mutton-chop shape for ME! So things like that CAN & DO happen!
Obediah	Posted - May 10 2008 : 11:20:25 PM quote: Originally posted by Fitzhugh Williams And don't forget Longstreet's beard. Possibly the worst fake beard I have ever seen. ..... I have a theory on that...once it was removed from Tom Beringer's face, it was died a darker color and given to Stephen Lang! ...and...sorry James, but the Tenn. Brigade was in the center of the Reb line...so some other Yank got me! I fired one (1) round & fell about 50 yards short of that doggoned wooden fence! Still, it was so amazing that I became one of the many thousands of "elbow dead."
James N.	Posted - May 09 2008 : 7:16:46 PM Obediah, I, too, was present at the 125th Gettysburg! Maybe my men "killed" you in Pickett's Charge - unless you were also Federal? I had the smallest company in the so-called U.O. ( "Unwanted/Unattached Others" ) or 3d Battalion. Of course, due to "politics" the Eastern and Western Federal Battalions got the primo spots in the line; ours was exiled to the FAR right, farthest from the audience and the cameras. I managed to "break away" from the unit I was attached to, the Union Division from Florida, and found a BEAUTIFUL spot under a tree at right angles to the lines of battle; from which we delivered enfilading fire against each successive wave of attacking Rebs. I was damned if my men, most of whom were Western Federals from Texas and Arizona, were going to merely sit out the high point of the entire event "in reserve" where we had been placed! My men eventually tired of "pouring it in", and turned into spectators of the grand scene. In fact, I credit that event in part with getting me the job in "Glory"; and by extension, LOTM. It was my first event to command a company, and a Federal one at that; in fact after I'd seen "Glory" several times, I additionally picked myself out of a passing Irish Brigade unit we served with on the 2d day at Gettysburg. I remember seeing the film crew there shooting with a hand-held camera; no "Back to One" at that time! I recognized the reenactor coordinater I'd worked for on "North & South" and "The Alamo - The Price of Freedom" in the crew; and it was he who later offered me the job on "Glory"! Despite the shortcomings of "Gettysburg", I still wish I had been able to work on it as well.
Irishgirl	Posted - May 09 2008 : 5:21:13 PM Very impressive James. My son will be so excited to hear about your work on "Glory". He really does love that movie and you are so lucky. Would I ever love to help Cary Elwes with his sword knot(no idea) but I would sure try...
Fitzhugh Williams	Posted - May 09 2008 : 3:38:08 PM quote: Originally posted by richfed OFF TOPIC, BUT .... I noticed that too, Fitz. I thought it was my machine, as I began seeing that only after I upgraded to Vista SP1 recently. Guess not ... or, are you also using SP1??? Nope, I use XP. It works well on other boards. And I think I remember it working on this one when I first added that message. Maybe something changed?
Fitzhugh Williams	Posted - May 09 2008 : 3:34:06 PM And don't forget Longstreet's beard. Possibly the worst fake beard I have ever seen. (And they can give Sean Connery a crew cut and can't make a decent beard???)
Obediah	Posted - May 09 2008 : 11:54:07 AM Speaking of Gettysburg, although I was unable to attend the filming (as a reenactor), I was at the 125th Anniversary Re-enactment of Gettysburg in 1988. Pickett's Charge on the 3rd day of the battle/reenactment was quite possibly the high point of my life... "Glory" is in my top 5 movies. in spite of some glaring historical flaws, it is the best ACW movie ever made IMO. What I thought was really neat was the 1st part of the film, which purported to show Antietam...the long shots of the battle and of the Union camp were all actually filmed at the 1988 Gettysburg reenactment...so I'm actually somewhere in those battle scenes! The movie "Gettysburg" wasn't bad, if a bit too long, as long as one ignores the rubber bayonets , that idiotic Irish sergeant (Greek chorus) who was always out of uniform, and Martin Sheen's horrible rendition of RE Lee. I know that for the reenactors (the real stars of the movie), it was quite an emotional event to film Pickett's Charge on the actual ground at Gettysburg (the US Park Service did something right). As far as "Gods & Generals," it seems a step below "Gettysburg." Although I think that Stephen Lang is an awesome actor, he really had an uphill battle, but what else can you do with someone as conflicted as "Tom Fool" Jackson. Just...please lose that hokey beard! Personally, I kept expecting to hear him say, "the law don't go around here, Kansas law dog!"
James N.	Posted - May 09 2008 : 11:30:32 AM For Fitz: My main objection with the battle scenes in both Bondarchuk's "War and Peace" ( my favorite film of all time! ) and "Waterloo" is that he seemed to think the ONLY way to get across the effects of 19th century artillery was to show HUGE explosions and fireballs, more resembling napalm than anything else! As we know, the deadliest projectile of all, cannister, would have NO VISUAL impact whatever; apart from the devastating results to life & limb. This being a visual medium, moviemakers feel they have to depict some Apocalypse to make their point; hence Mann's use of such giant fire-and-smoke bellowing cannon that would have done "The Pride and the Passion" proud! For Irish: I worked on "Glory" much as I did on LOTM, for 3 months as a white officer of the 54th Mass. In that capacity I was one of the two officers of the "background company", the one to which our main characters belonged. I got to help teach Morgan Freeman the manual of arms; and showed Cary Elwes how his sword knot should be tied. Best of all, I ACTUALLY show up onscreen in many of the scenes! ( Unlike LOTM! ) I could EASILY write a memoir of that to rival the one I wrote for Rich for this site. Maybe someday!
Irishgirl	Posted - May 09 2008 : 09:15:08 AM James I must confess I am one of those who liked the "North and South" for the "bed-hopping" and other juicy stuff going on. Too bad the good battle scenes you mentioned got left on the cutting room floor. My husband and youngest son are big war enthusiasts especially the Civil War and love "Gettysburg" and "Glory". My sons two favorite movies. Nice to hear that you worked on "Glory". I shall be sure to let him know that. I also loved "The Blue and the Gray" Stacy Keach was just adorable in that one
richfed	Posted - May 09 2008 : 08:38:38 AM OFF TOPIC, BUT .... I noticed that too, Fitz. I thought it was my machine, as I began seeing that only after I upgraded to Vista SP1 recently. Guess not ... or, are you also using SP1??? ON TOPIC ... Uncas & Alice ... what a nice little sub-plot it may have been, if only so many didn't take it as the only thing going on in the film!
Fitzhugh Williams	Posted - May 08 2008 : 11:04:35 PM Well, when it comes to battle scenes, I have to say the the Russian version of War and Peace has some of the best. I especially liked Bagration's attack at the Battle of Schongrabern. Note: Pardon the misspelling of Schongrabern. Apparently the "o" with an umlaut is not allowed, as is the case with the carat over the "e" in my "message" below.
James N.	Posted - May 08 2008 : 8:24:59 PM Sorry Irish, I usually tend to agree with your views, but that was the greatest insult to the memories of those who served/fought in the Civil War/War Between the States I EVER saw. My principal objection was that NONE of the characters behaved in any way like 19th century people at all. ( In an era before dependable birth control, would all these females be SO ready to jump into bed at the drop of a forage cap? ) I had a friend ( female ) who sounds like you regarding it - merely an excuse to fantasize and drool over Patrick Swayze. She professes to be interested in the period; but it's mostly centered over ways women might have disguised themselves as men in order to fight in the battles! In fact, I'm surprised John Jakes didn't find some way to work THAT into his potboiler. As I've said before, while working on these things, you have NO idea what they will turn out like. We filmed some VERY good battles and historical sequences for "North & South, Part II"; but of course, few made it to the finished product: they were jettisoned, so as to have more time for uninhibited sex and an endless string of commercials! I tend to agree with Obediah's assessment of Hollywood and the War; but I think "Glory" and "Gettysburg", though hardly perfect, at least showed the possibilities of the medium. I'm rather proud of the work we ( the reenactors ) did on "Glory"; and I only wish I'd had the opportunity to work on "Gettysburg". Other flawed films that at least touched on believeable aspects and behaviors include Disney's "The Great Locomotive Chase", John Wayne's "The Horse Soldiers", and TV's "The Blue and the Gray". And of course, our "favorite", LOTM!
Irishgirl	Posted - May 08 2008 : 1:07:19 PM James I loved the "North and South" mini-series especially Ory Main
Obediah	Posted - May 08 2008 : 12:13:44 PM James, I certainly can't disagree with your statements, but that doesn't change the way I feel about Cora's sister & Chingy's brat. Personally, if I had never seen LOTM & just read all these "unrequited lovers" themes here on the Mohicanboard, I would never watch the thing. But since I have seen this flick more times than I can count, I appreciate just how minor a part of LOTM the theme of those two really is. But ... "North & South???" Oh man...well, Hollywierd has never treated the ACW very well or very accurately.
James N.	Posted - May 07 2008 : 8:05:51 PM Obediah, As a fellow "geezer", I tend to agree; but you must face the fact that without all the sappy love interest, LOTM would be consigned to the dustbin of most historical costume epics a'la Sergei Bondarchuk's equally excellent "Waterloo". If that's what it takes to interest people in history, it's a small price for us geezers to pay; at least as long as it's done decently like here, and not mere soap opera trash like the TV mini-series "North and South", which I'm sorry to admit I also worked on.
Obediah	Posted - May 07 2008 : 3:33:18 PM All I can say about this is to paraphrase a line from LOTM: "It is more deeply boring* to my blood than any imagining could possibly have been."*
winglo	Posted - May 06 2008 : 7:36:34 PM quote: Originally posted by RedFraggle Ah well, guess we'll never know. Not only will we never know, with all those revisions James N. is listing, in just 9 months, I'm not sure anyone, including Michael Mann, knew exactly what he wanted here.
James N.	Posted - May 06 2008 : 2:25:44 PM Red, As I noted on another thread, my copy of the script looks like a rainbow due to the many revisions. Each new revision was on a different-colored three-hole paper, so it could be inserted into the binder to replace the previous page. Therefore, I have THE SCRIPT as it stood as of my last day of filming in August of '91. Naturally scenes filmed after that date ( including this one ) do not show as final revisions in my copy. A new title page was usually included with each revised page to indicate the date of revision. Mine lists as follows at the bottom: SECOND DRAFT 7/31/90 Rev. 11/29/90 Rev. 02/13/91 (Blue) Rev. 03/01/91 (Pink) Rev. 03/07/91 (Yellow) Rev. 03/19/91 (Goldenrod) Rev. 04/04/91 (Salmon) Rev. 04/30/91 (Blue) Rev. 05/06/91 (Pink) Rev. 05/31/91 (Green) Rev. 06/10/91 (Yellow) Rev. 06/11/91 (Goldenrod) Rev. 06/24/91 (Salmon) Rev. 07/29/91 (Blue) Rev. 08/01/91 (Pink) Rev. 08/12/91 (Yellow) Also, each newly revised page is dated at the top, so there can be no doubt when it was revised despite having to use the same colors of paper over again. Each new title page is in the appropriate color of the latest revision; so my title page is yellow. Note that this scene was revised in June when we had only begun, and months before its actual filming. No doubt it was revised several times after this, as were many other scenes. I'd like to know from when the soap-opera sounding version you described originated. I strongly suspect these constant revisions were a major source of friction between Michael Mann and both the studio heads above him who wanted to keep on schedule for budgetary reasons; and those below him who strove to adjust to such an endlessly-changing scenario. Of course such revisions are normal in the course of any production; I just think these are at least a bit excessive, based on my prior experience. It is well to remember that there's nothing sacred about THE SCRIPT in any production; it serves mainly as a sort of map or guide for members of the production to know in what direction it's going. Though it certainly includes the dialog, it's by no means limited to it. ( Notice in this case on the entire page there is only a single word of dialog: Alice's whispered "Uncas..." ) This is especially true in this case where the director, whose job it is normally to interpret the script, also happens to be ( on my copy at least ) the sole credited writer: "Screenplay by Michael Mann".
White Feather	Posted - May 06 2008 : 03:30:41 AM Mmmm interesting... Sad thing, we would never know
RedFraggle	Posted - May 06 2008 : 12:19:45 AM Hmmm . . . that's interesting, and different from the version of the script posted elsewhere on this site, which sounds a little like a cheesy romance novel, these lines in particular: "Languorously, she lies back, closes her eyes and lays a hand on his shoulder, palm up, as if he were a prince in a romantic fantasy. . . . Then her mouth seeks his and in the passion of despair and fear and wanting life, she holds him between her thighs." I guess in this version there's no ambiguity as to what "makes love with her" means! Wonder how many drafts that part of the script went through? It would be interesting to know. Also interesting would be seeing the final, filmed version, which Eric Schweig has said was "puppy love" kind of stuff, definitely different from desperate thigh-clinging. Ah well, guess we'll never know.

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