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Highlander Indians?

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[quote][i]Originally posted by CT•Ranger[/i]
[br]Forgive me if this has already been discussed. I was wondering if anyone has noticed that in Hayward's diversion, several of the Indians charging at the grenadiers are really Highlanders. In the scene where the camera is on the ground(or close to it) and the Indians are running at and past the camera, some of them jump down(into a trench?) and continue running straight past the camera.  The two on the left side of the screen are Higlanders with no shirts and their plaids tied over their shoulders. You can even see their red and white checked hose if you watch in slow mo on your dvd. They are also distinctive because they don't have black mohawks or scalplocks, but brown long hair in the european style. Was this a practice shoot, with the Highlanders standing in for Indians? Just wondering what was going on here.

Interestingly I ran across an account in Knox's journals of the French and Indian War, where he recounts an event where a Highlander was mistaken for an Indian. It was a foggy morning, and a Highlander came walking out of the woods with his plaid wrapped around his head and shoulders as they often did in the cold. A nervous British sentry mistook him for a Indian, and after the Highlander did not respond to the sentry's challanges, the sentry shot and killed the Highlander. Apparently many of the Highlanders in the British army only spoke Gaelic and could not understand English.

-CT•Ranger

"Now we are glad to learn the skulking way of war.” - John Eliot

Edited by - CT•Ranger on October 19 2002  10:06:17 PM
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T O P I C R E V I E W
CT•Ranger	Posted - October 19 2002 : 4:36:10 PM Forgive me if this has already been discussed. I was wondering if anyone has noticed that in Hayward's diversion, several of the Indians charging at the grenadiers are really Highlanders. In the scene where the camera is on the ground(or close to it) and the Indians are running at and past the camera, some of them jump down(into a trench?) and continue running straight past the camera. The two on the left side of the screen are Higlanders with no shirts and their plaids tied over their shoulders. You can even see their red and white checked hose if you watch in slow mo on your dvd. They are also distinctive because they don't have black mohawks or scalplocks, but brown long hair in the european style. Was this a practice shoot, with the Highlanders standing in for Indians? Just wondering what was going on here. Interestingly I ran across an account in Knox's journals of the French and Indian War, where he recounts an event where a Highlander was mistaken for an Indian. It was a foggy morning, and a Highlander came walking out of the woods with his plaid wrapped around his head and shoulders as they often did in the cold. A nervous British sentry mistook him for a Indian, and after the Highlander did not respond to the sentry's challanges, the sentry shot and killed the Highlander. Apparently many of the Highlanders in the British army only spoke Gaelic and could not understand English. -CT•Ranger "Now we are glad to learn the skulking way of war.” - John Eliot Edited by - CT•Ranger on October 19 2002 10:06:17 PM
20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
kurtbg	Posted - October 28 2002 : 4:11:46 PM quote: Originally posted by Gasaka Soquilla: quote: Originally posted by kurtbg: The highlanders were stuntmen and not extras and were not used in lieu of striking indians... Huh??? If your refering to my earlier post where I said "This is all from memory, & is not verbatim, but I recall after reading about "rangers" I was wondering why they used highlanders instead (because they were handy?)..." I think you missed my point (if I'm wrong then please forgive me)I wasnt asking if they were stuntmen or extras. I was wondering why(?) we didnt see any "rangers" & just the highlanders & Indians. The script, though, refers to both rangers & highlanders, & seems to use the term interchangeably. Thus I think "ranger" & "highlander" in the scrpt writers mind were one & the same.... When I first read the script it was way before we ever got to see the version with just highlanders & Indians, so when I first saw it & didnt see any "rangers", I started asking myself "why"? ;-) Gotta' go, been busy helping a new Indian Dept./ranger co'y do research into their chosen unit impression, & I need to contact some Butler's Rangers folks back east before they hit the hay. Cheers, GasakaSoquilla a.k.a. Sjt. Scobie Geneway's Co'y Butler's Corps of Rangers "They waged a bloody, no-quarter war, and were paid back in kind." Edited by - Gasaka Soquilla on October 23 2002 10:47:32 PM ======== Someone in a previous post thought highlanders/rangers were used for this scene because the indian extras were striking. I knew this wasn't the case and posted my original message to clarify that point. I apologize for not replying to that specific post and creating confusion. I don't know the historical accuracy behind their usage. I did view a working script on set, but I did not remember reading this scene and I didn't receive or acquire a copy. Cheers
Gasaka Soquilla	Posted - October 23 2002 : 10:45:32 PM quote: Originally posted by kurtbg: The highlanders were stuntmen and not extras and were not used in lieu of striking indians... Huh??? If your refering to my earlier post where I said "This is all from memory, & is not verbatim, but I recall after reading about "rangers" I was wondering why they used highlanders instead (because they were handy?)..." I think you missed my point (if I'm wrong then please forgive me)I wasnt asking if they were stuntmen or extras. I was wondering why(?) we didnt see any "rangers" & just the highlanders & Indians. The script, though, refers to both rangers & highlanders, & seems to use the term interchangeably. Thus I think "ranger" & "highlander" in the scrpt writers mind were one & the same.... When I first read the script it was way before we ever got to see the version with just highlanders & Indians, so when I first saw it & didnt see any "rangers", I started asking myself "why"? ;-) Gotta' go, been busy helping a new Indian Dept./ranger co'y do research into their chosen unit impression, & I need to contact some Butler's Rangers folks back east before they hit the hay. Cheers, GasakaSoquilla a.k.a. Sjt. Scobie Geneway's Co'y Butler's Corps of Rangers "They waged a bloody, no-quarter war, and were paid back in kind." Edited by - Gasaka Soquilla on October 23 2002 10:47:32 PM
kurtbg	Posted - October 23 2002 : 1:25:12 PM The highlanders were stuntmen and not extras and were not used in lieu of striking indians...
SgtMunro	Posted - October 22 2002 : 11:05:20 PM You are correct Pushmataha, a typo on my part, as usual my mind is out racing my fingertips. During my stay in the U.K., I found that Highland Scots, prefered to be refered to as Highland Scot or Highlanders (pronounced phonetically, hey-lenda with little emphasis on the "d"). This distiguished them from Lowland Scot or Border Scot (Jordies). I see from your profile that you are also 'on the job', as am I, which P.D.? Your Humble Servant, Sgt. Duncan Munro Capt. Graham's Coy 1/42nd Royal Highlanders "Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
Pushmataha	Posted - October 22 2002 : 10:36:50 PM The french had several "Scottish" regiments.. They were called the "Royal Ecossais".. Many of the leading jacobites did escape to france.. The french partially supported the 1745 uprising but in the end they did not send as many troops as they had promised.. Scots prefer to be called scot or scottish.. Scotch is a drink and calling a scot this is considered offensive.. Sean Connery almost walked off the Johnny Carson Show when he called him a scotchman.. Edited by - Pushmataha on October 22 2002 10:44:43 PM
CT•Ranger	Posted - October 22 2002 : 4:31:02 PM quote: Originally posted by Gasaka Soquilla: "Clear it up any"? ;-) Thanks, that clears it up a lot. For some reason I just didn't realize they were jumping into the same trench as the British. CT•Ranger "Now we are glad to learn the skulking way of war.” - John Eliot (during King Philip's War 1675/6)
Gasaka Soquilla	Posted - October 22 2002 : 05:46:41 AM "CUT TO EXTERIOR FRENCH TRENCH - THREE PICKETS - NIGHT (Note: Though this portion of the scene does NOT appear in the final film, it does show up in a network TV airing of the movie and is included in the DVD edition.) are suddenly tomahawked and knifed by stripped down 42nd Highlanders and Mohawks. Alarm is raised. French and some Huron run to advance. Shots are fired. The Rangers & Mohawks fall back. FRENCH emboldened, pursue ..." Go to Script: "LAKE GEORGE & FORT WILLIAM HENRY ... Surgery & The Courier" to read the whole scene... http://www.mohicanpress.com/mo07014.html "Clear it up any"? ;-) Your Servant, Sjt. Scobie Geneway's Co'y Butler's Corps of Rangers 1777-1784 "They waged a bloody no-quarter war, and were paid back in kind." =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Capt. Lewis Geneway's Company of Rangers: http://www.iaw.on.ca/~awoolley/brang/brlgcoy.html =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Gasaka Soquilla	Posted - October 22 2002 : 04:56:57 AM quote: Originally posted by Gasaka Soquilla: The Highlanders were drawing the French outof their entrenchments for the couriers diversion.They dived into the trench (etc)to avoid being caught between Hayward & the French as the diversion played itself out. My mistake....I just got done rewatching that scene, the Indian scouts & Highlanders clearly jump over, or some into & out of the ditch that Hayward & his force are hiding in (if they were enemy they should've been spiked on British steel right there <g>). As we see the Brit's come out of hiding you will see the Indians & Highlanders scrambling up the hill & back to the safety of the fort. Now, if you want to really see some "White Indians" (as myself am called by some of my SCN brothers & sisters), watch closely the action during the valley massacre scene (I wrote about this on the old liste). You will see French Coureur De Bois/Milice attacking the Brit's & colonials. There is even one thats bare chested, wearing breechclout & leggings, with shaggy blond hair sticking out of a blue tuque (knit cap) really getting into the killing business (I even spotted the bearded Coureur De Bois from the cemetery scene in this one). At one point you can see near the head of the column, where the stand of colours are, what appears to be a French Marine gleefully waving a tomahawk in the air (at least he's wearing a pale grey justaucorps with blue facings & matching garrison cap, so I assume he's a marine, could be militia I suppose)! Have fun seeing how many of these guys you can spot ;-) Aye, GasakaSoquilla a.k.a. Sjt. Scobie Geneway's Co'y Butler's Corps of Rangers Edited by - Gasaka Soquilla on October 22 2002 05:00:59 AM Edited by - Gasaka Soquilla on October 22 2002 05:05:55 AM
Gasaka Soquilla	Posted - October 22 2002 : 12:33:32 AM quote: Originally posted by CT•Ranger: quote: Originally posted by Gasaka Soquilla: The Highlanders were drawing the French outof their entrenchments for the couriers diversion.They dived into the trench (etc)to avoid being caught between Hayward & the French as the diversion played itself out. YHS, GasakaSoquilla aka Sjt. John Scobie Butler's Corps of Rangers Geneway's Co'y GasakaSoquilla, that's an interesting possibility. I never thought of that. But I think the Highlanders are too close to the Indians. They appear to be running together toward the Grenadiers, and the Grenadiers fire at them before the French come out and Hayward fires a volley at them. And if these Highlanders are drawing out the French and Indians, why would they take off their uniforms and go bare chested, without muskets, and with knives and tomahawks drawn like the Indians? I still think these Highlander Indians are supposed to be Indians who are jumping the gun and attacking the Grenadiers before the French regulars deploy to engage Hayward. Okay, final word from me on this, & Rich could probably back me up on this, but I recall in reading the actual shooting script that it called for "rangers" (highlanders) & Indians returning to their (British)lines with the French in prusuit, drawing them into Haywards ambush/diversion. This is all from memory, & is not verbatim, but I recall after reading about "rangers" I was wondering why they used highlanders instead (because they were handy?)... Rich, I am remembering this correctly am I? If so, this should put the matter to rest (I hope) ;-) Cheers, Sjt.Scobie Geneway's (pronounced Genevay)Co'y Butler's Corps of Rangers
SgtMunro	Posted - October 21 2002 : 8:06:32 PM Gentlemen, this debate sparked my interest to check my own resource library, as well as an extensive search on the web. I cannot say that there is anything that would have prohibited people of Scotch ancestery to wear the 'garb of old gaul' while serving in the capacity of Milice or Coeur de Bois, but the uniform regulations of the Ministrie La Marine or the Troupes de Terre are very specific and very uniform. I therefore have to agree that no French Regular or Marine unit would have permitted such variation to the standard uniform. You see, the French did not have to 'entice' people of Scotch ancestry to serve under arms in the manner that the British Crown had to. Your Humble Author, Sgt. Duncan Munro Capt. Graham's Coy 1/42nd Royal Highlanders "Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
CT•Ranger	Posted - October 21 2002 : 7:08:25 PM quote: Originally posted by Gasaka Soquilla: The Highlanders were drawing the French outof their entrenchments for the couriers diversion.They dived into the trench (etc)to avoid being caught between Hayward & the French as the diversion played itself out. YHS, GasakaSoquilla aka Sjt. John Scobie Butler's Corps of Rangers Geneway's Co'y GasakaSoquilla, that's an interesting possibility. I never thought of that. But I think the Highlanders are too close to the Indians. They appear to be running together toward the Grenadiers, and the Grenadiers fire at them before the French come out and Hayward fires a volley at them. And if these Highlanders are drawing out the French and Indians, why would they take off their uniforms and go bare chested, without muskets, and with knives and tomahawks drawn like the Indians? I still think these Highlander Indians are supposed to be Indians who are jumping the gun and attacking the Grenadiers before the French regulars deploy to engage Hayward. Maybe this was filmed when the Native extras where on strike, and they just used the Highlanders to fill in the ranks. Hey Rich, do you got any input on this? respectfully, -CT•Ranger "Now we are glad to learn the skulking way of war.” - John Eliot
Edmund McKinnon	Posted - October 21 2002 : 6:10:39 PM You have yet to supply documentation that they did not wear kilts while serving the French.I don't have to see documentation on Braddock's missing paychest to know that it doesen't exist either.EM Capt.John Graham Cmdr.42nd Highlanders
Gasaka Soquilla	Posted - October 21 2002 : 05:49:57 AM quote: Originally posted by Edmund McKinnon: Just because you've never heard of it,doesn't mean that it didn't happen. I wont quibble about "what might have been" we could go on forever, I prefer historical facts /& eyewitness accounts, & have yet to see any of Scots wearing kilts in the French service during this period... documentation please. [;-)] quote: As for rangers at Ft.William Henry,they were there.Robert Roger's brother died of smallpox while in the fort.EM Edmond N.Highlander Jr. [/b] Yes indeed, thats one reason I brought it up.... & after the Indians (who were drunk) entered the fort they not only killed the living, but dug up, mutilated & scalped the dead, including smallpox victims, thus carrying the smallpox virus back to their castles (villages). The dead had their revenge. Sjt.Scobie Butler's Corps of Rangers Geneway's Co'y
Edmund McKinnon	Posted - October 21 2002 : 12:39:05 AM Just because you've never heard of it,doesn't mean that it didn't happen.If the British allowed the Highladers to wear kilts while in their service,why not the French?Also in French service were Germans,Swiss and Italians who made up their own regiments.Only one each Swiss and German regiment were deployed to North America however.As for rangers at Ft.William Henry,they were there.Robert Roger's brother died of smallpox while in the fort.EM Edmond N.Highlander Jr.
Gasaka Soquilla	Posted - October 20 2002 : 8:48:52 PM quote: Originally posted by Edmund McKinnon: I've only seen the scene once,so I will have to slow-mo it the second time that I watch it,in order to make a valid statement on the matter.However,I do know,that Fraser's Highlanders of the 78th are seen prior to this scene in the movie(escorting the party into the SallyPort during the nightime siege).I also know that the French gave much material assistance to the Jacobites.And didn't Bonnie Prince Charlie(the Pretender)go back to France after Culloden?Is it possible that other Jacobites went with him? They couldn't stay were they were could they?Could they have ended up serving the French in some capacity?Director John Sayles will soon be filming a movie that is about a Jacobite who flees Scotland after Culloden,and goes to New France.He eventually is adopted into an indian tribe and takes part in Braddock's Defeat & The Battle of Quebec.Check out my posts on the F&I message board.EM Edmond N.Highlander Jr. While that is all true, I have never heard of Scots in the French army still wearing kilts of any sort. During Culloden (the '45) there was a contingent of Scotsmen in French service supporting the Young Pretender (oh, did I fail to mention that I'm also a member of "Highlanders & Hanoverians", commanding the recreated Mackay Independent Co'y? ;-) ), anyhow they wore standard French military dress, though with the addition of Scots bonnets. Whats really missing from the whole William Henry scene, & I mentioned this before on the old liste, is the lack of any Rogers Rangers (a few who were there while the fort was under seige). Would've made more sense having them return from drawing out the French ;-) At anyrate its one of my favorite scenes, seeing the grenadier in action & all! Sjt.Scobie
Edmund McKinnon	Posted - October 20 2002 : 5:23:51 PM I've only seen the scene once,so I will have to slow-mo it the second time that I watch it,in order to make a valid statement on the matter.However,I do know,that Fraser's Highlanders of the 78th are seen prior to this scene in the movie(escorting the party into the SallyPort during the nightime siege).I also know that the French gave much material assistance to the Jacobites.And didn't Bonnie Prince Charlie(the Pretender)go back to France after Culloden?Is it possible that other Jacobites went with him? They couldn't stay were they were could they?Could they have ended up serving the French in some capacity?Director John Sayles will soon be filming a movie that is about a Jacobite who flees Scotland after Culloden,and goes to New France.He eventually is adopted into an indian tribe and takes part in Braddock's Defeat & The Battle of Quebec.Check out my posts on the F&I message board.EM Edmond N.Highlander Jr.
Pushmataha	Posted - October 20 2002 : 05:06:46 AM GasakaSoquilla, I love that picture too.. I have it hanging in my house.. My mother is from Inverness, Scotland and my father is Choctaw.. ------------------------- "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend"
Gasaka Soquilla	Posted - October 20 2002 : 04:23:59 AM Scott, this one of my favorite Griffing prints! As a mixed-blood member of the Colorado River Band of the Southern Cherokee Nation, & many Highland clans (I'm a commissioner-in-training for clan Mackay), I always felt this print, entitled "Warriors", of the Cherokee scout & the Highland soldier perfectly captures the meeting of my twin bloodlines! Wado (thanks)! GasakaSoquilla (Lighthorse) aka Sjt.John Scobie Butler's Corps of Rangers Geneway's Co'y
Gasaka Soquilla	Posted - October 20 2002 : 04:19:10 AM quote: Originally posted by CT•Ranger: Forgive me if this has already been discussed. I was wondering if anyone has noticed that in Hayward's diversion, several of the Indians charging at the grenadiers are really Highlanders. In the scene where the camera is on the ground(or close to it) and the Indians are running at and past the camera, some of them jump down(into a trench?) and continue running straight past the camera. The two on the left side of the screen are Higlanders with no shirts and their plaids tied over their shoulders. You can even see their red and white checked hose if you watch in slow mo on your dvd. They are also distinctive because they don't have black mohawks or scalplocks, but brown long hair in the european style. Was this a practice shoot, with the Highlanders standing in for Indians? Just wondering what was going on here. - CT•Ranger on October 19 2002 10:06:17 PM The Highlanders were drawing the French outof their entrenchments for the couriers diversion.They dived into the trench (etc)to avoid being caught between Hayward & the French as the diversion played itself out. YHS, GasakaSoquilla aka Sjt. John Scobie Butler's Corps of Rangers Geneway's Co'y =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Capt. Lewis Geneway's Company of Rangers: http://www.iaw.on.ca/~awoolley/brang/brlgcoy.html
Scott Bubar	Posted - October 19 2002 : 5:17:28 PM Lord Nelson's ~~Aim small, miss small.

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