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LAST OF THE MOHICANS

The Last of the Mohicans ...

Poor Magua

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[quote][i]Originally posted by Mountain Man[/i]
[br]At the Huron village, we hear Hawkeye tell the Sachem...[b]Wise one, the French fathers made peace and swore to their honor not to break the friendship. Magua broke it.[/b]

I wonder... how did he know this for sure? What made Hawkeye [navy][b]so[/b][/navy] certain what was said /agreed upon at the parlay? He wasn’t present, but instead, a prisoner in the stockade. And up until the time of the attack he was a prisoner under guard. So who filled him in on what the French fathers said? Duncan at the falls? I don’t think so... they weren’t exactly on speaking terms.

And how did he know what transpired between Montcalm & Magua. He couldn’t be certain that Montcalm didn’t give Magua the green light for an attack, and in a sense he did.

It just seems to me that Hawkeye was discrediting Magua without knowing for sure what he was telling the Sachem was in fact true.  
Poor Magua, all he wanted to do was have revenge on the Grey Hair (which he deserved in my opinion) and be acknowledged by the Sachem as a great war leader.

[/quote]

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T O P I C R E V I E W
Mountain Man	Posted - April 07 2006 : 9:55:06 PM At the Huron village, we hear Hawkeye tell the Sachem...Wise one, the French fathers made peace and swore to their honor not to break the friendship. Magua broke it. I wonder... how did he know this for sure? What made Hawkeye so certain what was said /agreed upon at the parlay? He wasn’t present, but instead, a prisoner in the stockade. And up until the time of the attack he was a prisoner under guard. So who filled him in on what the French fathers said? Duncan at the falls? I don’t think so... they weren’t exactly on speaking terms. And how did he know what transpired between Montcalm & Magua. He couldn’t be certain that Montcalm didn’t give Magua the green light for an attack, and in a sense he did. It just seems to me that Hawkeye was discrediting Magua without knowing for sure what he was telling the Sachem was in fact true. Poor Magua, all he wanted to do was have revenge on the Grey Hair (which he deserved in my opinion) and be acknowledged by the Sachem as a great war leader.
18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Carter	Posted - April 14 2006 : 07:49:18 AM Thank you for your kind words! Wes likes to keep up with what is happening on his message board and he reads his email but I don't think he's much of a web surfer. Rich's board is so huge he might miss any comments about his role as Magua. Love, Carter
Irishgirl	Posted - April 13 2006 : 12:28:25 PM Carter I checked out the website too and looks really interesting over there. I think it is great that you can actually post a question for Wes and he is so gracious as to take the time to personally answer it. I was reading quite a few of his replies to other people on there. Just amazing. Anyhoo, my question to you is, I know Wes is a busy man so probably not much time to visit his own website but do you know if he ever ventures over here to peruse the Mohican boards and see what is being said about him and Magua on here??? Also I saw where he got a part in the new "Commanche Moon" mini-series being made for CBS. I am looking forward to seeing that one and glad to hear that Wes is "on board". Of course, I am disappointed that Eric, for whatever reason, will now not be reprising his role as "Buffalo Hump" on there. Well at least Wes is in there so I am happy about that. He does sound like a really nice man who appreciates his fans.
Carter	Posted - April 13 2006 : 09:00:28 AM Hey, I don't blame you! The man has that effect on a lot of us! And your admiration is well placed. Wes is not only a good actor but a good person as well. He is very good to his fans. Not too long ago, he copied about 20 of his newest, unfinished Firecat CD and gave them to his fans for free. We will be meeting him in Santa Fe this year and have fans coming from all over the globe. Blessings, Carter
LeyLana1462	Posted - April 12 2006 : 11:08:08 PM Hi Carter Yes I did get your email, thank you so much for your quick reply. I have emailed you back with the info. It's weird tho, because I respond here in the morning and then realise it's almost the middle of the night over there.........lol......just feels strange. Thanks for the comment about the ?'s for Wes. I check in every day to see if he responds..........bit girly of me I know but it just gives me a real buzzzzzz to think that one of my idols is taking the time to read a message from me and then answer it........... how goooooooey...........lol Hope you have a wonderful weekend Cheers for now Ellen
Carter	Posted - April 12 2006 : 5:22:38 PM Thank you Leylana! Did you get my email? I loved your questions to Wes on our board. Carter
LeyLana1462	Posted - April 12 2006 : 07:19:50 AM Hey Mountain Man, have you seen the new Wes t-shirts on the studigroup site??????????????? They're gorgeous. And very affordable. I'm ordering a couple. One for me and one for me......woops.......I meant one for my husband...........lol........
paazau	Posted - April 11 2006 : 11:12:26 PM quote: Anyway, Paazau, what ya doin in da 'Board Room' at work?????.....lol You don't work for telstra do ya???? Just doin' a little surfin' on my lunchbreak... Nup... software company... at a 'puter aaaall day..
LeyLana1462	Posted - April 11 2006 : 08:16:54 AM I think you're right MeggieD Deffinitely something crazy between these two.....lol.....I just sit back and watch.............. Anyway, Paazau, what ya doin in da 'Board Room' at work?????.....lol You don't work for telstra do ya???? hee hee hee
paazau	Posted - April 10 2006 : 11:44:22 PM ROFLMAO (which is embarrassing to do when you're at work) quote: Empty promises, that’s all I get from you paazau is empty promises What can I say, I'm female. Haven't perfected the art of refraining from speaking my mind. quote: First of all, you got me on the “swearing not to break peace” part in Hawkeye’s statement. I went by the script without comparing it to the actual movie. D@mn! I hate it when that happens. YES!!!!!!! quote: I did not interpret the surrender as peace. Ok, fair enough. That's where our difference of opinion stems from then. quote: Sorry if I confused you paazau. You did, and apology accepted. quote: I didn't have much of an appetite today. Other than that I was OK. quote: I accept your roses as a peace offering. But I think you owe me a couple more for the breaking of your promise. quote: If you want...we can call a truce now and smokem peace pipe. truce... your teepee or my campfire quote: Originally posted by MeggieD you two are crazy...... Yep, I never professed to be anything but!!!
Mountain Man	Posted - April 10 2006 : 10:03:50 PM quote: Originally posted by MeggieD you two are crazy...... We know!
MeggieD	Posted - April 10 2006 : 9:58:48 PM you two are crazy......
Mountain Man	Posted - April 10 2006 : 8:07:07 PM Empty promises, that’s all I get from you paazau is empty promises ...Sigh First of all, you got me on the “swearing not to break peace” part in Hawkeye’s statement. I went by the script without comparing it to the actual movie. D@mn! I hate it when that happens. I did not interpret the surrender as peace. Peace is peace and surrender is surrender. To me, they have two completely different meanings. That being said, I did not find anything in the surrender/parlay that I interpreted as a peace agreement between the French & English. To me, it was simply the surrender by Munro with generous terms given by Montcalm to return to England. I could be wrong (and it won’t be the first time) but that’s the way I interpreted it. That’s all I have to say on the whole peace/ surrender thing. I mentioned in my previous post that “in essence” there was a French escort for the English. I went back and changed it to “in reality”, which is what I meant to say. This was how it actually happened in the real history of the English column marching to Fort Edward. Sorry if I confused you paazau. quote: Originally posted by paazau I hope I didn't upset you too much. I didn't have much of an appetite today. Other than that I was OK. I accept your roses as a peace offering. But I think you owe me a couple more for the breaking of your promise. If you want...we can call a truce now and smokem peace pipe.
paazau	Posted - April 10 2006 : 06:36:53 AM quote: Boy, you weren’t kidding about that comfy chair, cut lunch and water bag. At least I warned ya! Got one again?? quote: there are others I must take issue with. That's fine, take all the issue you want.. I'll read it all and take it in........... Ok, now that I've read it..... I know I promised not to pick your posts to pieces, but I've got to comment on a couple things.. Brace yourself.... I'll try to be nice.. quote: <snip>or that the French fathers swore not to break a peace agreement Hawkeye may have 'said' that in the script, and possibly even in the director's cut version ???? , but it ain't on my dvd; hence my interpretation of Hawkeye's statement 'The french fathers made peace. Magua broke it.' That's all Hawkeye says in my dvd. He doesn't mention them swearing not to break it. Peace was made - surrender is peace, isn't it?? That's the assumption I'm goin' on. Magua broke the peace by attacking the column. Regardless of any other peace terms that were agreed to there's no way anyone would think the column being attacked was part of what Munro agreed to. Maybe Hawkeye (and I) are a bit naive thinking that???? quote: I don’t know if you can assume that just because they were allowed to leave unescorted (in essence they did have a French escort), that this would automatically imply that the French and English made peace. Why not?? Surely Hawkeye would know that Munro would not agree to leave the fort, if he expected that they would be attacked by the French or the Indians out in the open like that? There must have been a peace (surrender) deal made. where? I don't recall seeing any escort with them Dn, now I'm gonna have to watch it again**!!! quote: What made Hawkeye so sure that he was right about Magua’s breaking the peace? To reiterate,for all Hawkeye knew, Montcalm did give Magua the go ahead for an attack on the column. (In the movie anyway) Again, Magua attacked the column; therefore he broke the peace. Even if Montcalm did give Magua the go ahead ; it's still breaking the peace. quote: <snip> but I’m willing to bet that Magua spoke the truth about the French fathers. They were at war! Oh I have no doubt that Magua spoke the truth there. But Hawkeye definitely did not know before that moment that there may have been some underhanded arrangements. The script helps interpret that look - "(Nathaniel realizes this is true.)" quote: I ag
Mountain Man	Posted - April 09 2006 : 11:43:10 AM Boy, you weren’t kidding about that comfy chair, cut lunch and water bag. Ok paazau, you make some good points, and while some of them I may agree with, there are others I must take issue with. quote: Originally posted by paazau I don’t think Hawkeye needed to know what was said between Montcalm and Munro to know that the peace was made, and that Magua broke it. Even if he wasn’t aware of the parlay he saw the French officers arrive at the fort under the flag of truce from his cell window so he knew something was happening. Yes, he knew something was happening and maybe that a truce was made at this particular time. However, he could not have known what Montcalm’s or the French fathers true intentions were long term!. All Hawkeye could have known at this point was that some form of truce/surrender was taking place. He could not have known the details or what kind of peace agreement was made between the English & the French fathers, or that the French fathers swore not to break a peace agreement if in fact one was made. At least that’s my thoughts on it. quote: Originally posted by paazau Added to that the fact that the English left the fort to the French; What choice did they have? They were beaten! quote: Originally posted by paazau and they left unescorted by the French; they were not prisoners (well, Hawkeye still was but that’s different...) obviously the French and English ‘made peace. I don’t know if you can assume that just because they were allowed to leave unescorted (in reality they did have a French escort), that this would automatically imply that the French and English made peace. quote: Originally posted by paazau Hawkeye didn’t need to know the exact terms; it would stand to reason that the column being attacked was not part of the peace terms agreed between Montcalm and Munro!!By participating in the attack on the column Magua ‘broke’ the peace. Hawkeye should if he is going to make accusations against Magua to the Sachem. And again, Hawkeye didn’t know for certain what transpired between Magua & Montcalm. What made Hawkeye so sure that he was right about Magua’s breaking the peace? To reiterate,for all Hawkeye knew, Montcalm did give Magua the go ahead for an attack on the column. (In the movie anyway) quote: Originally posted by paazau However, the look on Hawkeye’s face when Magua says to Sachem “It made our French father happy to know that he would never have to fight the same English again.” says to me that this was news to Hawkeye. You can interpret that look on Hawkeye’s face to mean whatever you want, but I’m willing to bet that Magua spoke the truth about the French fathers. They were at war! I agree with your assessment of what Hawkeye meant in terms of Magua’s heart being twisted.(Well said ) I just personally didn’t like the way Hawkeye judged Magua. But I’ll get over it. quote:
paazau	Posted - April 08 2006 : 9:36:40 PM Ok, Mt Man here goes! Got a comfy chair, a cut lunch and a water bag? You might need 'em before you start on this one - it's long... I don’t think Hawkeye needed to know what was said between Montcalm and Munro to know that the peace was made, and that Magua broke it. Even if he wasn’t aware of the parlay he saw the French officers arrive at the fort under the flag of truce from his cell window so he knew something was happening. Added to that the fact that the English left the fort to the French; and they left unescorted by the French; they were not prisoners (well, Hawkeye still was but that’s different...) obviously the French and English ‘made peace’. Hawkeye didn’t need to know the exact terms; it would stand to reason that the column being attacked was not part of the peace terms agreed between Montcalm and Munro!! By participating in the attack on the column Magua ‘broke’ the peace. As far as Hawkeye not being certain that Montcalm didn’t give Magua the green light for an attack, he wasn’t... he didn’t know that at all. Would Hawkeye have *suspected* that Montcalm would double-cross the British in that way????? Perhaps, after the attack on Cameron’s cabin; Hawkeye certainly doesn’t believe Munro when Munro says that “Montcalm is a soldier and a gentleman, not a butcher.” However, the look on Hawkeye’s face when Magua says to Sachem “It made our French father happy to know that he would never have to fight the same English again.” says to me that this was news to Hawkeye. Image Insert: 29.98 KB I thought that Hawkeye’s character assassination of Magua when he said “Magua’s heart is twisted. He would make himself into what twisted him.” was about Magua’s suffering at Munro’s hands, but I also think that Hawkeye was referring to Magua’s turning away from the Huron ways. Hawkeye can see by what Magua says about taking “land from the Abenaki, furs from the Osage, Sauk and Fox. Trade for gold”, that Magua’s intentions have shifted from the Huron ways to the “Yengeese and Français trader” ways. When Hawkeye says to Sachem that Magua’s heart is twisted etc etc , this is after Hawkeye lists all the things that the Yengeese and Français traders do which go against the Huron ways, and after asking Magua if he would use the ways of the Yengeese and the Français traders. It could be that when Hawkeye refers to Magua's heart being twisted he's not referring to the emotional pain of losing his family, just that his heart has been twisted from the Huron ways. Having said that, Hawkeye may not be aware of exactly what transpired between Magua and Munro but I would bet he suspects something due to 1) Hawkeye knows Magua tried to kill Cora. 2) Hawkeye knows that Magua was the courier from Munro and did not deliver the message for the girls to stay away from the fort and for Webb to send reinforcements. 3) Hawkeye knows Magua killed Munro. Would these three things alone not tell Hawkeye that something happened to make Magua hate Munro and want revenge? That's my thoughts on that subject. Now on to some lighter things. “not with enough certainty” …. Hmm that sounds familiar…. Quoting British Colonels now are we Mt Man??? quote: Originally posted by Carter Haweye's perpetual sarcasm has always irritated me. LOL Just goes to show ya, there’s definitely different strokes for different folks… I find Hawkeye’s sarcasm to be one of his best qualities!
Carter	Posted - April 08 2006 : 7:00:40 PM Well, Hawkeye was just trying to rescue his sweetie. But I did think his "Magua would turn himself into what twisted him" line was a bit nasty. Accurate, but nasty. Haweye's perpetual sarcasm has always irritated me. LOL
Mountain Man	Posted - April 08 2006 : 07:49:58 AM Thank you for your thoughts GG. I agree, and another wink was right after that with the statement...And yet, I cannot break the terms of the capitulation and sully the lilies of France ... It was that emphasis on the I and Montcalm’s look that said it all. quote: Originally posted by Gadget Girl but Magua did not act as an ally and took things into his own hands, and that the parlay transactions were common knowledge by the time the English left the fort. Yes, no doubt they were common knowledge, but without Hawkeye actually being present at the parlay, he couldn’t be certain of what was agreed upon in the terms of the surrender, and in my opinion, not with enough certainty to tell the Sachem that Magua broke the friendship with the French. I just felt that Hawkeye was doing a real character assassination on Magua without knowing for sure what Magua’s thoughts & intentions really were. Who was he to judge Magua unless he walked in his shoes and experienced what he did by having his family destroyed by the Grey Hair. Magua was just a product of what made him who he was, which was Munro.
Gadget Girl	Posted - April 08 2006 : 01:03:14 AM I think when Montcalm said something like honoring his word he had to let them go, but he would only fight the same soldiers again. He kind of gave a wink to Magua that he might look the other way if Magua attacked the English after they had left the fort, which is what they did. I suppose that Hawkeye was taking the tack that the French fathers would keep their word, but Magua did not act as an ally and took things into his own hands, and that the parlay transactions were common knowledge by the time the English left the fort. Good question - this was just the feelings I got from the dialogue. It still amazes me how we can go over again and again different aspects of this film and still find new perspectives. GG

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