| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Bookworm |
Posted - March 05 2004 : 9:07:39 PM
Not long ago Wilderness Woman mentioned, in another forum, that her ancestors came from the area of Germany known as the Palatinate and settled in the MOhawk Valley around 1725. My ancestors (at least those who bore earlier versions of my surname) also have a connection with the Palatinate, so I wanted to ask, WW, whether your ancestors and mine might have been part of the same migration?
My guys were originally from Switzerland, the Emmenthal region of the canton of Berne. They were Mennonites -- both pacifist and anabaptist (believing in adult rather than infant baptism) -- and, as you can imagine, life there wasn't easy for them. For some reason the powers-that-be in the Palatine region of Germany were much more tolerant, so they found refuge there. Eventually my forebears made it over here, arriving in Philadelphia on September 21, 1765 on the ship Myrtilla, out of LOndon. The family then moved to Lancaster County (which is to this day the Amish/Mennonite heartland of Pennsylvania), and eventually a son, Johannes Kroebiel (or Kriebel, or Krayenbuhl -- "the place where the crows roost" -- how's that for flattering?!), became the first person of European descent to settle in the area that is now the border of Snyder and Juniata counties, Pennsylvania. His tombstone reads "the first settler in this valley."
Anyway, I'm not familiar with the background of the German settlements in the Mohawk Valley. Pennsylvanians speak of our German forebears as either "plain people" (Amish, Mennonite, German Baptist Brethren, etc.) or "church people" (Lutheran and Reformed). Maybe, WW, your people were the permanent inhabitants of the Palatinate, as opposed to the Swiss who found refuge there???
Any other Palatine descendants out there in Mohicanland? In an odd coincidence, I stopped in at the local history society not long after reading WW's post and picked up a pamphlet from a genealogical organization I'm not familiar with, "Palatines to America." Their HQ is in Columbus, Ohio, and their website is http://www.palam.org
To answer the inevitable question: My family isn't Mennonite anymore. My paternal grandfather's family was, but when he was around 10 they moved "over the mountain" (residents of western NC would call it a foothill) and apparently there was no Mennonite church nearby, so that was that. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - April 02 2004 : 08:37:04 AM
I just saw that, too, BW! I have his site bookmarked so I can go back and fully explore it over my lunch hour. Perhaps we can entice Mr. Flint to join in here and introduce himself?
Welcome to Mohicanland, David! During my very brief visit to your website (which is very, very attractive, btw!) I saw that you and your ancestors are very close to my ancestral area of Snells Bush and St. Johnsville. We must talk!
 |
| Bookworm |
Posted - April 02 2004 : 08:24:20 AM
I just checked out the website of Mohicanland's newest citizen and thought it might be especially interesting to those who've posted here: www.dbflint-colonial-wars.com |
| Bookworm |
Posted - March 21 2004 : 5:49:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Bubar
That's very interesting. Some of you may recall Bellesile's infamous book The Arming of America. Much of his argument rested on the (supposed) relative scarcity of guns in wills and death inventories.
This is the first time I've seen one worded like this.
quote:
Originally posted by Bookworm
I thought some of our genealogists/historians/reenactors might find the following to be of interest - it's from the will of "the first settler," who (if I've counted correctly) was my 6x-great-grandfather:
"And in case I should have a rifle at the time of my decease it is my will and I give and bequeath the same to my eldest son, Christian Krabiel, his heirs and assigns and, further, if I should have in my possession at the time of my decease a fowling piece I give and bequeath the same unto my son, John Krabiel, his heirs and assigns forever."
I do remember reading about the book, Scott. If memory serves, Bellesiles' theory was that the present-day "gun culture" rests on a myth, namely, that many citizens possessed firearms prior to the Civil War. He purported to disprove the myth by showing, based on an examination of documents such as probate records, that in fact very few citizens did. Historians hailed his thesis as innovative, original, etc., and he was awarded the Bancroft Prize -- later rescinded, after it was discovered that some of his sources didn't exist, others were misquoted, etc. I am in favor of revisionist history when the revision in question brings us closer to the truth, but this one just seemed wrong from the beginning. Sad to think that so many historians, even some who had studied the colonial and federal periods and must have known something of the development and spread of the Pennsylvania longrifle, praised this book. But truth won out. |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - March 12 2004 : 12:59:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 42ndNCO
... many European folks who settled on the frontiers weren't, ah, shall we say, the most literate or socially acceptable?
Probably true for some of them, but please remember that many of them were just plain folk... families... who wanted to have a place to raise their children and eek out a livelyhood from the rich soil of this land. Illiterate? Some of them. Socially unacceptable? I think I disagree there.
quote:
...those of you who've managed to acquire info on your ancestors, be it oral history or hard records, are very industrious and fortunate indeed.
Speaking for myself, I have been very fortunate in that much of my family history was done by others and handed to me on a platter! This is what happened with my Palatine ancestral history: I went back 3 or 4 generations from myself and happened to find the right place where I could plug my branch right into an already existing family tree. Presto! Instant ancestors! Wish some of my other lines were that simple.
Here's a little story about using clues:
I have a lot of old photos that go back into the mid to late 1800s. I am amazed that my grandmother, who didn't like anything old, kept them. Recently, I was going through them and scanning them in an effort to try to identify some of them. I had done some research online about how to date old photos using clothing, hairstyle, and other types of clues. (Fascinating, btw!) I have discovered that those old photos scan very, very well, and even subject themselves to being enlarged quite well.
Anyway, I have one small photo that is in a little case that appears to be made of some sort of compressed paperboard. (I have since learned that this is called a "Union case.") The whole thing measures about 2 X 2 inches, and I had always assumed it to be a tintype and I had no idea who the man was. One day, I got brave and very carefully extracted the photo from its case. Much to my amazement, I found that it is not a tintype at all, because it is printed on a dark piece of thick glass. I researched and found that it is an "ambrotype." It scanned beautifully and I can bring it up onscreen to a very large image, and it is as clear as a bell.
I was able to study it closely, and using clothing and hairstyle clues, I dated it to about 1855. Comparing the man's facial features to a photo of an old man that was identified, I was able to determine they were the same person. Therefore, I am the very proud owner of an 1855 ambrotype of my Great-great-grandfather, Joseph Mott.
Ain't computers wonderful?!? |
| securemann |
Posted - March 12 2004 : 12:11:16 PM
I have the original tin-type picture of my gg grandfather from the Civil War.I also have the itemized funeral bill of his wife(my gg grandmother)from 1899.The total bill was only $74.00!and that included a horse drawn buggy to bring the ole gal back to Schoharie County from Brooklyn,N.Y. which is well over 180 miles.I also have my dad's purple heart and bronze star. |
| Scott Bubar |
Posted - March 12 2004 : 07:10:13 AM
That's very interesting. Some of you may recall Bellesile's infamous book The Arming of America. Much of his argument rested on the (supposed) relative scarcity of guns in wills and death inventories.
This is the first time I've seen one worded like this.
quote:
Originally posted by Bookworm
I thought some of our genealogists/historians/reenactors might find the following to be of interest - it's from the will of "the first settler," who (if I've counted correctly) was my 6x-great-grandfather:
"And in case I should have a rifle at the time of my decease it is my will and I give and bequeath the same to my eldest son, Christian Krabiel, his heirs and assigns and, further, if I should have in my possession at the time of my decease a fowling piece I give and bequeath the same unto my son, John Krabiel, his heirs and assigns forever."
What I think is interesting is that the writer of the will thought it possible that at the time of his death he might NOT possess a rifle and/or a fowling piece. Maybe that's because when the will was written in 1803, three years before he died, he was a prosperous (to judge from the rest of the will), 68-year-old farmer, with three sons to share the bounty of the hunt with him, and as a presumably faithful Mennonite he would not have had firearms for any other purpose. Sad to say, I have no idea if he did pass on any firearms, and if so where they are now. Given what I know of our family's devotion to its history, however, I am sure that, if they exist, they're not for sale!
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| 42ndNCO |
Posted - March 12 2004 : 06:31:30 AM
The hardest thing I've found in tracing is that many European folks who settled on the frontiers weren't, ah, shall we say, the most literate or socially acceptable? To quote John DeMay (Settlers' Forts of Western Pennsylvania), "...I don't think you would like them at all; and, come to think of it, neither would they have liked us....We are too rich, complacement and meek for their tastes...they were rowdy, undisciplined..."
Aside from following the path of land transactions, deeds and court cases (one of my ancestors was apparently civilized enough to take a neighbor to court regarding said neighbor's "tomahawk" claim that encroached on his property), there are very few "tales" that survive to present day in our clan.
Understanding that then, those of you who've managed to acquire info on your ancestors, be it oral history or hard records, are very industrious and fortunate indeed.
Any comments or suggestions for gleaning the inside unwritten story are both respected and appreciated
....still looking for the lost family fortune.... |
| richfed |
Posted - March 12 2004 : 05:29:26 AM
 I don't have a single thing ...
I guess the oldest thing I have is a 7th Cavalry belt buckle taken off the field at Little Bighorn by an Indian. Selo Black Crow gave it to me back in 1987 as a gift while I visited on Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota. It had been passed on to him. Maybe I was related to that dead soldier?  ... Nah ... |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - March 11 2004 : 8:40:24 PM
People who had ancestors who valued things enough to keep them and pass them down for 4 and 5 generations are very, very fortunate. Unfortunately for me, I am not one of them! The oldest item I have from my ancestors dates back to 1853. And while I am very pleased to have this... I sure do wish I had a powder horn or a musket or part of a uniform or whatever from one of my Revolutionary War Soldier ancestors. Sigh.
If I may go back to my Mohawk Valley Palatine heritage for a moment... the German Bible that belonged to my 5th great-grandfather Lt. Henry (Henrich) Zimmerman, who fought and was wounded at the Battle of Oriskany, is still in existence. It was kept and handed down through one branch of his many descendants. In fact, it still resides in the Mohawk Valley with one of my distant cousins. I have not seen it, but surely would like to.
What I am fortunate enough to have is something that belonged to Lt. Henry's great-grandson, who was my great-great-grandfather. It is a "Revised Edition" of Webster's Dictionary that was published in 1853. It is inscribed "Andrew J. Zimmerman, Shelby, NY 1855." That thing is huge, has about 1400 pages and is nearly 4 inches thick!
I also have a tiny little pocket book of the Psalms that belonged to my great-great-great Uncle John McFarlin who was killed in the Civil War in the 1st Battle of Winchester.
Family treasures are wonderful, aren't they? Who else has something special that came down through their family? Tell us about it, please. |
| Bookworm |
Posted - March 11 2004 : 7:18:55 PM
I thought some of our genealogists/historians/reenactors might find the following to be of interest - it's from the will of "the first settler," who (if I've counted correctly) was my 6x-great-grandfather:
"And in case I should have a rifle at the time of my decease it is my will and I give and bequeath the same to my eldest son, Christian Krabiel, his heirs and assigns and, further, if I should have in my possession at the time of my decease a fowling piece I give and bequeath the same unto my son, John Krabiel, his heirs and assigns forever."
What I think is interesting is that the writer of the will thought it possible that at the time of his death he might NOT possess a rifle and/or a fowling piece. Maybe that's because when the will was written in 1803, three years before he died, he was a prosperous (to judge from the rest of the will), 68-year-old farmer, with three sons to share the bounty of the hunt with him, and as a presumably faithful Mennonite he would not have had firearms for any other purpose. Sad to say, I have no idea if he did pass on any firearms, and if so where they are now. Given what I know of our family's devotion to its history, however, I am sure that, if they exist, they're not for sale! |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - March 07 2004 : 12:09:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Seamus
WW-- I will be at Conrad Weiser's Homestead at Womelsdorf, Berks County, from noon to 4 PM next Sunday, the 14th for Charter Day...
Cool! 
And this is yet another place to add to my huge list of historical places I would like to see...
Thanks for those links, Seamus! |
| Grenouille |
Posted - March 06 2004 : 8:53:20 PM
Hi Seamus,
Thanks for the PR plug. We look forward to having the Augusta Regiment back!!!
Regards,
Jim |
| Seamus |
Posted - March 06 2004 : 8:37:28 PM
Look for us in there, too! (in the photos of 2003 section)
Cook Forest is, indeed, a premier event. It gets better every year, thanks to Jim and Dale Luthringer, of the Park staff. Our people really look forward to going there! You will not be disappointed..... |
| Grenouille |
Posted - March 06 2004 : 8:29:56 PM
Hello,
Come see Rich Pawling, one of the foremost living history impersonators in the country, portray Conrad Weiser on Saturday, June 19, 2004 at The Cook Forest French and Indian War Encampment atCook Forest State Park in Cooksburg, Pa. Free admission!!
This excerpt is from his website:
IN THE STEPS OF A PEACEKEEPER (Conrad Weiser, 1696-1760)
To know Conrad Weiser is to know his adopted Mohawk name (tarachiawagon: the man who held up the sky). Born in Astat, Wurtenberg, November 2, 1696, this man epitomizes life on the American frontier from 1710 until his death in 1760. During that time - he was a statesman, diplomat, traveler, judge, linquist, Lieutenant Colonel, farmer and official Pennsylvania peacekeeper.
The 2004 Cook Forest French & Indian War Encampment and colonial art show will be held June 19 & 20. Come see over 250+ reenactors portray life on the PA frontier in the 1750's. Clarion River fur-trading scenario, military tactical demonstrations, guest speakers,craftsman demos, colonial merchants, Native American lifestyles, and more!
Visit the Saw Mill Center to meet renowned colonial artists, and view their artwork. Free admission and open to the public.
Cook Forest is located in Cooksburg, Pa.
At last year's encampment, we had over 10,000 public who visited!
Cook Forest Online -- encampment info:
http://www.cookforest.com/activities/frenchindianwarencampment/index.cfm
Scroll down to see some encampment pics on this page:
http://www.lindasphotogallery.com/alleg_natl_forest_region.htm
Cook Forest State Park Website:
http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/stateparks/parks/cookforest.asp
Thanks,
Jim
|
| Seamus |
Posted - March 06 2004 : 7:09:01 PM
WW--
I will be at Conrad Weiser's Homestead at Womelsdorf, Berks County, from noon to 4 PM next Sunday, the 14th for Charter Day. The 1st Battalion Pennsylvania, known as Weiser's Battalion, whose Colonel was Conrad, himself, and my 3rd Battalion Pennsylvania, The Augusta Regiment, Burd's Company will be on the field there drilling and doing military life for the public. The original Weiser's Battalion and The Augusta Regiment worked very closely with each other protecting Pennsylvania's frontiers during the F&I War, and we do so today.
Staff and volunteers will be dressed in period clothing and will tell the story of Conrad Weiser. Two years ago,for Berks County's Bicentennial kickoff we had a contingent from his home in Germany, including the mayor of Wurttemberg, the German Consul-general from the UN, and several others whom I cannot recall, in attendance. They laid a wreath at his grave, and I had the honor of escorting the Mayor. It was a touching ceremony, I must say.
Here are some interesting websites:
http://www.phmc.state.pa.us/ppet/weiserhome/page1.asp
http://www.phmc.state.pa.us/bhsm/toh/weiser/conradweiser.asp?secid=14
http://www.berksweb.com/conrad.html |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - March 06 2004 : 5:57:31 PM
Yes, Conrad Weiser was a fascinating person with a very interesting life. I had read some about him before, but I really enjoyed the Berks County website you provided. Thanks, BW!
Securemann, who knows? Perhaps your people, my people and the Weiser family all "hung out" together! At the very least, they most likely all knew each other. Everytime I go back and re-read the story of the Palatines, I am absolutely boggled. The hardships they endured and the stamina and courage they showed... it makes me so proud, I could just bust wide open. Thank God for that good, hardy Germanic peasant stock! Without it, none of them would have survived.
BTW, all of you Pennsylvanians know this already, but there are probably some out there who do not: the term "Pennsylvania Dutch" comes not from people whose ancestors were from Holland, but from these same Palatine German people. In this case, "Dutch" equals "Deutsch"... German. What a wonderful, wonderful heritage.
Regarding the possibility of Indian ancestry... I would dearly love it if my old family legend could be proven true. I would be proud to be able to claim that I had some Mohawk blood in me, even if it were very watered down. Alas, I fear I will never know for certain.
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| securemann |
Posted - March 06 2004 : 11:55:50 AM
I'm not done tracing the tree because I got to find my Indian relative which I heard so much about when growing up. |
| securemann |
Posted - March 06 2004 : 11:51:39 AM
Ah yes,the good ole Schoharie Valley and the Palatines.It's funny because when I traced my family tree there were two sets of Mann families in Schoharie in which I am related.The long line is the Palatines which goes back to the 1700's in Schoharie.My great grandmother's maiden name was Mann but that name goes to England then to France(Normans).Talk about yer head spinning when tracing this stuff!Hey W.W.,as far as I know,the Dutch blood was late in my history so I doubt that our kinfolk were slugging it out.We were probably hanging out! |
| Bookworm |
Posted - March 06 2004 : 11:13:32 AM
WW, you share the Palatine heritage of Conrad Weiser, Pennsylvania's most famous frontier diplomat-interpreter-negotiator!!!! According to Conrad Weiser: Friend of Colonist and Mohawk by Paul A.W. Wallace, the Weisers came from the Wurttemberg area; suffered war, plague, and famine (literally) in the late 1600s-early 1700s; migrated to England,under Queen Anne; arrived in New York on JUne 13, 1710, on the ship Lyon, out of Leith; took part in the doomed tarmaking scheme on LIvingston's Manor; and then migrated to the Schoharie, where they settled in a village known as Weisersdorf. there's a very interesting description of that area: "The neighborhood was full of sweet clover and Indians -- Mohicans (there was a village of them across the creek from the Wilder Hook and the mountain to the south was called the Moheganter), Mohawks, Tuscaroras, Oneidas, Delawares. This was border country, exposed to the French." Also, "Only the kindness of the Indians, who showed [the settlers at Weisersdorf] where to find food in the woods, and the charity of Albany and Schenectady people, who lent them equipment, kept the colony going." In 1720 Conrad Weiser married Ann Eve Feck (or Feg), also of Palatine ancestry. In 1729 they and their children migrated to the region of Pennsylvania that is now Berks County. For more on Conrad, here are two websites:
http://www.explorepahistory.com/ExplorePAHistory/MarkerDetails.do?markerld=177
http://www.berksweb.com/conrad.html
The latter site has an article on the Palatine migration to Pennsylvania.
WW, never worry about long posts, at least with me -- I'm not even done yet!
As for Indian ancestry in my neck of the woods, an article in the Snyder County Historical Society Bulletin said this:
"This [the mid-18th century] was also a time of the movement of INdian refugees in and out of the MIddle Susquehanna Valley, much of which occurred in the geographical area later occupied by Snyder County. The Tuscarora Path traverses Snyder County from Richfield in the West through Freeburg and Kantz to its Eastern terminus at Selinsgrove. It was the major conduit by which Tuscarora refugees traveled from the Carolinas to Shamokin [now Sunbury -- Seamus is the expert here] and then upriver along the North Branch [of the Susquehanna] to the Iroquois homeland....Emerging evidence indicates that the entire Tuscarora Nation did not arrive among the Oneidas in the Iroquois homeland by 1762, as [previously believed], but settled and often stayed at various places along the way -- Shamokin, Tioga Point (Athens, PA), Oquaqa (Colesville, NY), the village of Tuscarora in Schuylkill County, PA, and among the Pennsylvania-German farmers of Snyder County....One group in particular reportedly lived just off the Tuscarora Path among the PA-german famers in rural Snyder County....They formed an enclave at Big White Top Mountain just northwest of present-day Freeburg, PA, much like the ancestors of the Eastern Band of Cherokees did upon the forced removal of the Cherokee Nation in 1838. Apparently some of these Tuscaroras had the opportunity to marry into the dominant Euroamerican culture starting in mid nineteenth century, although it took several generatioins for their descendants to 'disappear' into the white population and thus become fully acculturated and accepted. Evidence of Indian occupation has also been found at a large spring about 1/2 mile north of Mount Pleasant Mills."
This author goes on to say "between 40% and 60% of Anglo-Americans whose ancestors were here in the Colonial era have Native American blood in their veins." Guess I could be among them, since the town of Richfield was founded by a son of the "first settler" and the other towns just mentioned are only a few miles away.
Genealogy is indeed fascinating stuff, WW, and also fascinating are the many connections to be found among the residents of Mohicanland! |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - March 05 2004 : 11:38:28 PM
Ahhhhh... this is a subject I lo-o-o-ve to talk about... (WW rubs her hands together to warm them, then gleefully dips pen into ink to begin.) Are you ready? This is liable to be a bit long.
It appears, Bookworm, that our Palatine ancestors took very different roads to get to the New World. My families, the Zimmermans, Kiltz, Fehlings, Bellingers, and the Schnells, were originally from Germany and specifically from the Rheinland-Pfalz area. They left their homeland in 1708-1709, along with about 13,000 other Palatine Germans who were weary from fighting the economic and political climate, as well as the horrible weather climate. This was the beginnings of what became known as the Great Palatine Migration. Your family was a part of it as well, albeit later on.
They fled in droves first to Rotterdam, where they appealed to Queen Anne of England to help them. The good Queen Anne took pity and allowed them to come to England, then found she had a major problem on her hands: what to do with them all. The idea of sending some of them to the American colony of New York to work on a tar-making project for the Royal Navy got rid of several thousand. Others were sent to Ireland, and some to the Carolinas.
After a grueling voyage that took many lives, my people landed in New York in the summer of 1710. My immigrant grandfather died shortly after arriving, and his widow hastily remarried. It was, of course, necessary that she have a protector and provider for her family.
The tar-making project in the lower Hudson Valley was eventually declared unsuccessful and was abandoned. So were the Palatines. They were turned loose at the end of the growing season of 1712, told they could go where they wished... oh... but they could not take any of their tools with them!
Believing they had been given rights to land in the Schoharie Valley, about 150 families began their exodus, going first to Albany and Schenectady. A deal was made with the Indians, and a road was cut along an old Indian trail through the wilderness to Schoharie. There they made settlements and built their farms. There they eeked out a hard living for some years, but the Indians had apparently been too generous with land they had already given to the Dutch. Land disputes arose... (I think my ancestors may have duked it out with Secureman's Dutch ancestors over this land!)... and in about 1720-1722, most of the Palatine families gave up and some headed north to the Mohawk Valley. Some went south to Pennsylvania to find a more hospitable home with William Penn's Quakers. In the Mohawk Valley, my families finally found their home. My 6th great-grandfather, Jacob Zimmerman, founded Zimmerman's Creek (what is now the village of St. Johnsville) in about 1725. Many of his descendants are still around that area.
I mentioned, in that other thread, that my families were friends with the Mohawk people. They knew the great Mohawk Sachem King Hendrick, knew Sir William Johnson and the Brants. An Indian deed that is dated 12 March 1733, and is signed by members of the Bear, Wolf, and Turtle Clans of the Mohawks, gave a large parcel of land on the north side of the Mohawk River to Anna Marragrieta Timmerman (Zimmerman). This deed became the basis of the Snell Zimmerman Patent of 1755, which formalized the transaction with the colonial government.
As I said in that other thread, an old family legend states that this Anna Marragrieta (my 6th great-grandmother) was a Mohawk princess who married Jacob Zimmerman, but no one has been able to prove this. It is thought, rather, that because she was kind to the Mohawk people, they thought of her as a very good friend and gave her the land as a token of that friendship.
And that, Bookworm, is the story of my Palatine heritage, and it is one that I am very proud of. Thanks for listening, and thanks for telling me about yours! I had wondered about your somewhat unusual last name, in fact, to m |
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