| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Christina |
Posted - February 12 2004 : 4:36:29 PM
Mel Gibson's much-anticipated, controversial "The Passion of the Christ" opens on Feb. 25 (Ash Wednesday.) What are your plans regarding this film? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ellie |
Posted - April 13 2005 : 10:48:58 AM
I wasnt sure wether to reply to this thread, or start a new one as the last post was a while ago but I guess it is relevant...
I have only just got around to seeing this film, to be honest I only rented it out as part of a rental trial with Amazon but I am so pleased I did. This film has affected me in a way I could never have anticipated and I need to get a lot of what is going on inside my head out of my system - this seemed the place to do it.
Before seeing the film I was not a religious person, I did not agree with organised religion and wanted no part of it. I wouldnt say I was athiest but pretty close, everything about religion/God/Jesus/the Bible repelled me. I have my own faiths and beleifs which are based purely around my own imagination, I guess.
After watching The Passion, something has changed. I dont think a film has ever had such an emotional and thought provoking impact on me. I have so many unanswered questions surrounding the film and the history and the story of Jesus that I have not been able to think about much else! Since Sunday, I have watched the film three times and I know I will watch it another couple of times at least before the week is out.
I beleive the film has brought the reality of Jesus home to me, it is not that I didnt beleive he existed but rather he was just a 'mythical' being - the film showed him as a real man with emotions, courage, fear and pain. I am not greatly educated in the story of Christ, I never wanted to be but now I do. Not becuase I am becoming religous, I still do not want to be part of an organised religion or faith but I beleive in this man and what he went through and that is enough for me but I have so many questions I need answered. My father is an Art historian and knows and incredible amount about Art, history adn religion and how it is all intertwined, he is not a religious man either so he can answer my questions in an objective way. I am starting to lose what my point is, but that is why I need to find out more - why is this film getting to me so much? People have often described me as a free spirit, now I am wondering if they meant lost soul?
Perhaps it was just the basic fact that the film was awe inspiring and the performances utterly compelling, especially Jim Caviezel. Perhaps if the film was based on a fictional character or another historical figure, it would still have had the same impact just without the religous curiosity. Or perhaps it is due to finding Jim Caviezel incredibly attractive as Jesus? Is that wrong? I dont mean it disrespectively at all, but I thought he was beautiful.
On a lighter note, I was watching the film yesterday evening but I was very tired so started dozing off when teh doorbell rang. It was teh gas man come to read the meter, he had long brown hair and a beard - that freaked me out! I went for a long walk to clear my head. Today at work I have had discussions with three different people about teh film and all of them have different religous beleifs, it is facinating.
I dont think I will ever be a religous person in the traditional sense, I now beleive in Jesus as man, as flesh and blood. That is it, I am very cynical about the rest of religous beleifs and what the bible says and how it can be interpreted... I guess I need to do more research - it is so confusing.
Thank you for reading this! |
| chicmohic |
Posted - September 29 2004 : 2:31:54 PM
I don't belong to any organised religion and there are parts of the New Testament I have real problems with, but I have to say I really loved this film, it is brave, moving, realistic and utterly believable. Mel Gibsons belief in this project shines through every frame. Yes it was painful to watch and yes there was a lot of blood..but for me that's just telling it like it is. Crucifixion was a vile death for anyone, let's not pretend that Jesus didn't suffer or bleed like anyone else,he did, and really that's the whole point of the film isn't it?. I wonder how many movies have sparked such debate..go and look on the IMDB site at just how many posts have been made for this film - amazing. |
| UncasLover13 |
Posted - September 28 2004 : 9:45:33 PM
This movie was amazingly powerful! I balled the entire thing. It just was incredible how much he went through for us. It definitely made me pray more and definitely try to become a better Christian...and I have succeeded. That movie is wonderful! I definitely encourage people to see it! |
| Christina |
Posted - April 20 2004 : 11:28:09 AM
I'm not going to get into my beliefs on the predestination issue, etc. at this time but I will include an interesting quote I got about this issue from a local minister. His take -- and the take of several evangelical Christians as well as Protestants, Roman Catholics and "non denominationals" I interviewed and discussed this subject with -- was that Jesus Christ HAD to be crucified and die for our sins in order for humankind to be saved, and that this fact would not have been changed whether the crucifiers were Roman, Greek, Jewish, Mesopatamian or a bunch of drunk guys from New Jersey:
(this quote was in the State Newspaper of Columbia, S.C. on Feb. 22)
"Our church members are extremely excited about this film -all the buzz and
coverage on the news is fueling the excitement," said the Rev. Bill Howard, pastor
of the 1,000-member Willowridge Church in Irmo. More than 600 members of his
church have purchased tickets for the film. Members are being asked to invite a
non-Christian, unchurched or questioning friend to attend the movie with them.
Howard said he's heard and read the worries about anti-Semitism, but thinks
they're off the mark.
"Nobody killed Christ against his will - he voluntarily gave up his life," Howard
said. "There were Jews, Romans and Gentiles present, but Christ would have given
up his life no matter who was involved. It's really all about all of us and our sin
before Christ."
The nature of whether Judas, Pontius Pilate, etc. were pawns in a predestined divine tragedy/triumph or willing agents of good and evil has been the subject of some of the most interesting debates I've heard about the whole issue.
I've of course heard opinions that differ from Howard's from other Christians and non-Christians alike, as well.
Christina |
| Theresa |
Posted - April 20 2004 : 07:14:39 AM
Ithi,
I believe that what made Christ's death so special is the resurrection. And as for why plaster Jesus with blood in this movie?...that was the way of Roman crucifixion. I believe Gibson wanted to make us feel and experience, as much as we as humans can, what Jesus did for us. |
| Kaylynn44 |
Posted - April 19 2004 : 10:33:16 PM
what you're all saying has an excellent defense of logic behind it. the only thing i dont understand is... how did God know what was to come?
This depends on whether you believe that God is omniscient or not. I believe that he is, so that is how he knew what was to come.
i disagree that our choices coincide with our desires... how often has our hand been forced by external circomestances? yea, i want a plasma screen tv and surround sound, but if i have no money, there's really no way i can "choose" to buy it.
But Ithi, you also have the choice to cut back on other things that you buy, so that you can save money for the plasma screen. You may not have the plasma screen today or tomorrow, but by making the right choices, you will arrive at your desire.
Kay |
| Ithiliana |
Posted - April 19 2004 : 8:22:46 PM
okies...
what you're all saying has an excellent defense of logic behind it. the only thing i dont understand is... how did God know what was to come?
a king may set laws for his subjects, but these laws can be broken. when its God, we call that sin. but even assuming that God could enforce his laws absolutely, and that no one would be allowed to break the law... there are still many things within the law that one can do. its not like God writes out our lives for us, play by play... or if he did, there would be no free will, no right to choose. it would be an illusion, (like the matrix, teehee). is it that God gives us the illusion that we choose, but really plots out our lives himself? (this is starting to sound like electing the president in the US... who actually believes the citizens elect the president? hah! all illusion!)
so basically,
a. we have free will, in which case how we choose is up to us, and sometimes why we choose the way we do is unclear even to us. and i disagree that our choices coincide with our desires... how often has our hand been forced by external circomestances? yea, i want a plasma screen tv and surround sound, but if i have no money, there's really no way i can "choose" to buy it. so we are affected by the choices of others: our choices stem from previous choices made by other people, spiraling all the way back to adam and eve (which is the christian version of how we came into being). i bet god didnt see the trick with apple coming, did he? well, maybe he did. i really dont know.
OR
b. we do not have free will, God already decided everything, and our will has nothing to do with it...
so which is it?
btw, arent calvinists the ones who believe that it is preordained who will be saved and who will go to hell? just wondering...
anyways, it looks like mine is a lost argument... but i have to say that i still feel bad for Pontius Pilate... he was set up, whether it was by gods or men... :'(
oh well, im looking forward to hearing your replies.
btw, rich... i know there are a lot of movies with plenty of gore in them and no substance to them whatsoever, and i am not a fan of them. tell me... does gore add substance to a movie? id say no... so why was it necessary to plaster jesus in blood? commercial purposes? would a movie about the birth of christ be enhanced by a detailed clip of the virgin mary giving birth? in my opinion, that would be missing the point... and so is this...
and finally, two last things and ill shut up! :)
1. what made christ's death oh so special? as if the romans didnt torture and crucify their other criminals... i mean, yea, i know ppl thought he was god... but whats so special about his death?
and
2. im looking for some reading on the fall of Lucifer from heaven... anyone got any suggestions on where i should look? |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - April 19 2004 : 6:27:06 PM
Yes! That's what I said, too. At least... I think that's what I said... Didn't I just say that?  Well, anyway, I tried to say that.
  |
| CT•Ranger |
Posted - April 19 2004 : 5:46:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Theresa
OK, this makes sense, too. You say he knew who would make those choices and what those choices would be, but they had a choice in whether to make those choices or not...HUH?
Exactly, it's perfectly clear  |
| Theresa |
Posted - April 19 2004 : 5:36:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CT•Ranger
quote:
He did not foreordain those particular persons to make those particular choices. Is that right?
I would say He did foreordain those particular persons to make those particular choices. But by "foreordain," I mean that God knew what choices they would make, and permitted them to make those choices. Foreordain does not mean that God forces people do things, or that they don't have a choice in the matter.
OK, this makes sense, too. You say he knew who would make those choices and what those choices would be, but they had a choice in whether to make those choices or not...HUH? |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - April 19 2004 : 10:29:58 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Theresa
(Geez...I'm more convinced than ever that I'm not the brightest bulb in the box)
That's you'n me, Theresa! Two Dim Bulbs! 
Seriously, don't sell yourself short! This is just one of many issues that Biblical scholars have been arguing over for centuries. It is very confusing. All I can do is go by what our Pastor teaches and attempt to decide for myself what seems correct or the most logical... if that is possible!
|
| CT•Ranger |
Posted - April 19 2004 : 08:03:47 AM
quote:
He did not foreordain those particular persons to make those particular choices. Is that right?
I would say He did foreordain those particular persons to make those particular choices. But by "foreordain," I mean that God knew what choices they would make, and permitted them to make those choices. Foreordain does not mean that God forces people do things, or that they don't have a choice in the matter. |
| Theresa |
Posted - April 19 2004 : 12:01:20 AM
quote:
So. Jesus would be crucified. There was no free will choice in this. If Judas had used his free will choice differently and decided not to take the money and betray Christ, God's plan would still have been fulfilled. It would have involved other people, somehow, someway. Because they would have used their own free will to bring about God's plan.
And, because God is Sovereign, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient, He knew exactly how His plan would work... He knew exactly who would be involved and what free will choices they would make.
Bingo! That makes sense to me. Although God knew who would be involved and what free will choices they would make to carry out His plan, He did not foreordain those particular persons to make those particular choices. Is that right?
(Geez...I'm more convinced than ever that I'm not the brightest bulb in the box) |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - April 18 2004 : 12:50:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CT•Ranger
God is absolutely sovereign over his creation. God can foreordain things in different ways, but everything that happens must at least happen by his permission.
This has always been a confusing issue for me, too.
If I may go back to Ithi's comment regarding Pontius Pilate and Judas being "pawns" in God's plan... here is my take and belief on that:
God's plan was that He would send His Son Jesus Christ (who is really a part of Himself, but that's a whole other topic!), to earth to be crucified on the cross, to die and to be resurrected... as an atonement, or the ultimate and final sacrifice, for the sins of every human being who professes a belief in Him.
But. Within that plan, the humans who were involved, other than Jesus, all had free will choices. Judas did not have to be involved. He made a free will choice to do what he did, to betray Christ. Pilate may have "had" to be involved because of his political position there... not because God "made" him be or used him as a player in a play.
So. Jesus would be crucified. There was no free will choice in this. If Judas had used his free will choice differently and decided not to take the money and betray Christ, God's plan would still have been fulfilled. It would have involved other people, somehow, someway. Because they would have used their own free will to bring about God's plan.
And, because God is Sovereign, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient, He knew exactly how His plan would work... He knew exactly who would be involved and what free will choices they would make. |
| CT•Ranger |
Posted - April 18 2004 : 12:14:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Theresa
This is where I'm not following...
You say you believe everything is foreordained by God and yet you say that Pilate and Judas chose to act. If their actions were foreordained then how could they choose? I'm not arguing the point, just trying to understand how they are not contradictory.
First, let me say that what I believe about predestination and free will is pretty much the Reformed belief on the subject. I grew up with many Arminian beliefs, but after studying theology, I find myself agreeing more and more with Reformed or Calvinist theology. I did not want to believe this at first, it was confusing. But the more I thought about it, the more it made the most logical sense to me. Much of what I write here is borrowed from RC Sproul's book Chosen by God
So, here is the Reformed position on predestination and free will. What is really at issue here is God's sovereignty versus man's free will. Jonathan Edwards explained in On the Freedom of the Will that human will is "the mind choosing." According to Edwards humans are not only free to choose what they desire, but they must choose what they desire to be able to choose at all. "The will always chooses acording to its strongest inclination at the moment." This means that every choice is free and every choice is determined. This sounds contradictory but what is meant by "determined" is not an external force coercing the will. "Determined" here refers to one's internal motivation or desire. Our choices are determined by our desires. They remain our choices because they are determined by our desires. This is called self-determination, whic is the essence of freedom.
The relationship between God and man is often explained with the analogy of a sovereign king ruling over a kingdom. Within that kingdom, men are free to choose as they will, but they are not autonomous. They are not a rule unto themselves. It is not free will that is canceled out by sovereignty, it is autonomy that can't coexist with sovereignty. If God is sovereign, man cannot be autonomous. If man is autonomous, God cannot be sovereign. These are contradictions. Man does not have to be autonomous to be free. We are free, but there are limits to our freedom. The ultimate limit to our freedom is the sovereignty of God. God is free. Man is free. God is more free than man. If man's freedom conflicts with God's freedom, God wins. God's freedom restricts man's freedom, our freedom does not restrict His. If God is truly sovereign, he foreordains everything. As the Westminster Confession of Faith says:
God, from all eternity, did by the most wise and holy counsel of his will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.
This idea that God foreordains everything is not unique to Calvinism or even Christianity. It is a basic tenet of theism. That God in some sense foreordains whatever comes to pass is a necessary result of his sovereign ty. God is absolutely sovereign over his creation. God can foreordain things in different ways, but everything that happens must at least happen by his permission. If God permits something, then he must decide to allow it. If He decides to allow it, then in a sense he is foreordaining it. Who, among Christians, would argue that God could not stop something from happening? If God so desires, he has the power to stop the whole world. To say that God foreordains all that comes to pass is simply to say that God is sovereign over his entire creation. If something could come to pass without God's permission, then God would not be sovereign. If there is any part of creation outside of God's sovereignty, then God is not sovereign. If God is not sovereign, then God is not God. |
| Theresa |
Posted - April 18 2004 : 10:01:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by CT•Ranger
Well, since you asked Theresa, I'll through out my opinion. I believe predestination and free will are not contradictory. I believe that everythiing is foreordained by God, including the crucifixtion of the Christ. I believe that Pontius Pilate and Judas Iscariot both chose to act as they did. They were not God's puppets in His play. I know this answer deserves more explanation but time limits this response. I will return with further explanation if it is desired.
This is where I'm not following...
You say you believe everything is foreordained by God and yet you say that Pilate and Judas chose to act. If their actions were foreordained then how could they choose? I'm not arguing the point, just trying to understand how they are not contradictory. |
| richfed |
Posted - April 18 2004 : 09:41:29 AM
Very interesting take on the film, Ithi ... One I completely disagree with, however.
Gore? Why is that an issue with this film I wonder? With all the truly gory movies out there - many of no substance whatsoever - this one, from certain quarters, gets knocked for it.
I thought it a truly beautiful, moving, and passionate film! |
| CT•Ranger |
Posted - April 18 2004 : 09:15:52 AM
Well, since you asked Theresa, I'll through out my opinion. I believe predestination and free will are not contradictory. I believe that everythiing is foreordained by God, including the crucifixtion of the Christ. I believe that Pontius Pilate and Judas Iscariot both chose to act as they did. They were not God's puppets in His play. I know this answer deserves more explanation but time limits this response. I will return with further explanation if it is desired. |
| Theresa |
Posted - April 18 2004 : 07:22:35 AM
No arguments necessary, Ithi. I think you've pretty much answered and confirmed what I read into your "movie review". You're right in that Jesus knew what was to happen. Who else but the Son of God would have? Do you believe predestination and free will are contridictory? Anyone? |
| Ithiliana |
Posted - April 17 2004 : 10:55:34 PM
i believe thats what the christian priests say, is it not? they say god gave us the freedom to choose (otherwise whats he gonna judge us on when we die?) but jesus knew what was to happen. he told peter that he will denounce him thrice, and lo! and behold... peter denounced him thrice. some say he had the gift of foresight, but what is foresight? if we have the freedom of choice, how can anyone know what we'll do? yes, one can predict... to a point. but nothing that accurate. and then he told the apostles at the last supper that one of them would betray him (i think). well, there... maybe he had the power to read minds... i dunno... but with peter how could he tell?
well anyway, my take on it was that christ came to earth to die for the sins of humanity. so it was going to happen. it was forordained, preplanned. the will of god, if you please. "If it is possible, let this chalice pass from me. but let thy will be done, not mine." or something like that... so any/all participaters were assigned roles already, which they carried out. choice didnt have much to do with that.
lol, theresa... i dont mean to turn this into "are you an atheist" part 2... i thought we had beaten that horse to death... unless, of course, you have anymore arguments which you wish to discuss, in which case im all ears... er... eyes :) |
| Theresa |
Posted - April 17 2004 : 8:47:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ithiliana
well, i say it yesterday. what can i say? gory. very gory. mel gibson seems to like that kind of thing.
i guess the movie's purpose was to make us sympathize with jesus, to come to the realization of what he went through to save us all.
unfortunatly.... i ended up feeling bad for two people: the roman governor and judas. they were set up, cheated, pushed into something they had no control over. yea, god gave us the right to choose, but this event was forordained, so there was nothing they could do to really derail the train of events leading up to christ's doom. and yet they have gone down in history as evil, terrible people.... how sad. i mean, at least christ knew he had it coming to him, and went through it all willing.
well, what i have to say is this. an impressive film, for impressionable people. you like it? go watch spartacus. you'll like that too. christ's example was not uncommon at the time. and if you like blood, gore, and mel gibson, go watch braveheart.
my rating? prolly 6 out of 10...
I'm confused, Ithi.
You say this was foreordained....by whom? And correct me if I'm wrong, but did you say, "yea God gave us the right to choose"? Do you believe that? |
| Ithiliana |
Posted - April 17 2004 : 1:39:14 PM
well, i say it yesterday. what can i say? gory. very gory. mel gibson seems to like that kind of thing.
i guess the movie's purpose was to make us sympathize with jesus, to come to the realization of what he went through to save us all.
unfortunatly.... i ended up feeling bad for two people: the roman governor and judas. they were set up, cheated, pushed into something they had no control over. yea, god gave us the right to choose, but this event was forordained, so there was nothing they could do to really derail the train of events leading up to christ's doom. and yet they have gone down in history as evil, terrible people.... how sad. i mean, at least christ knew he had it coming to him, and went through it all willing.
well, what i have to say is this. an impressive film, for impressionable people. you like it? go watch spartacus. you'll like that too. christ's example was not uncommon at the time. and if you like blood, gore, and mel gibson, go watch braveheart.
my rating? prolly 6 out of 10... |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - February 18 2004 : 8:41:43 PM
Funny, Seamus, my DH said exactly the same thing!
Well, I thought I was all gung-ho about going to see it, until I saw more clips the other night during Mel's interview. Now, I'm not too sure. No, I haven't changed my mind about the subject matter or the film itself in any way and on the one hand, I really, really want to see it. But on the other hand, I am just so afraid that the sheer power of it and the incredible realism of it will totally undo me. I'm afraid my brain and my emotions will simply not be able to handle it. Even though I know full well what Christ went through... I found myself literally shrinking away from the utter brutality of it. So I don't know what to do. I have to think on it.
Regarding Mel's interview, I was more impressed with the man than ever. You've simply got to hand it to him. He sat there, facing Diane and her questions, and answered them more than candidly. He answered from the depths of his very soul. He laid his Faith right out there for the whole world to see. He answered all of the allegations of anti-Semitism with good sense and truthfulness. And everything he said was spot on. And when Diane got too personal regarding Mel's father, he told her nicely but very firmly that they weren't going to go there.
He has grown, matured and changed over the years. He gives credit to his wife for putting up with him and for staying with him. He gives credit to his God for setting him on the straight and narrow.
I admire this man. |
| richfed |
Posted - February 18 2004 : 6:52:21 PM
I'm with you on that, Sarge, but, Seamus has a point ... no matter how grand a spectacle this movie turns out to be - and I think it's going to be a great one - there's no way it can match The Book.
I'm going to see it anyway!! |
| SgtMunro |
Posted - February 18 2004 : 06:10:53 AM
I plan on seeing it, because I have read the Book.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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