| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jumonville |
Posted - October 11 2003 : 2:01:20 PM
Is there an order of battle for the French forces that participated in the Fort Necessity action? Where can I find French accounts of the action?
Appreciate any help.
Scott |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| SgtMunro |
Posted - October 23 2003 : 08:14:28 AM
Lloyd,
Glad I could help. I was checking out your 1st Royals Regimental, very impressive work! You look like a proper gentleman and holder of His Majesty's Commision. From the picture, you haven't overlooked even the smallest detail. An excellent field/company officer impression of the Crown Forces, bravo!!!
Your Most Humble Servant,
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| mnchiefs502001 |
Posted - October 22 2003 : 6:12:31 PM
Sgt. Munro,
Thanks for the info and help. It is most appreciated. I have included a pic of my 1st Royals Officer Regimental taken a couple of years ago. I had it made by Carol Yargeau now of Just 2 Tailors. Did a great job and I like it.
Regards,
Lloyd C.
Image Insert:
71.12 KB |
| SgtMunro |
Posted - October 21 2003 : 11:10:49 PM
Lloyd,
Sounds like you have a perfectly servicable regimental coat. The color of red sounds right, and I'll let you in on a little secret. When I first made my highland regimental, I used the red wool from Woolrich, it was a deep red and I got some ribbin' for it, but not much because alot of guys use the deeper red as opposed to the madder. After three seasons of sun, rain, snow and sweat the red is now closer to your madder. As far as the facings and turnbacks, I wouldn't bother unless it bothers you. The color of green sounds close enough for government work, as we used to say, and you should look good enough standing in the ranks not to worry. I don't think you will look 'farbed-up', so relax and have fun.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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| mnchiefs502001 |
Posted - October 21 2003 : 9:38:22 PM
Sgt. Munro,
Thanks for references! I have a British Independent Company uniform that was made by Jarnagin Company. The red on this uniform is almost a orange/red and is face with the lighter shade of green. It's nicely done with raw edges and such although not hand sewn. I have seen many of these coats at events and such but it seems that other uniforms are made with a deeper red wool. Madder seems to be the standard but that opens a new can of worms.
2 questions -
1. Is this uniform of the correct color of red? That is if you have seen this color of wool out there.
2. If you were I, would you change the facing and turnbacks to a darker shade of green?
I want to be as on target as I can and hate being "farbed" up. I try to get things right.
Regards,
Lloyd |
| Hawkeye_Joe |
Posted - October 21 2003 : 6:43:51 PM
And here I was looking for profiles of Alfred Hitchcock...*laughs*...
No I didn't know that .. I'll have to look for him. |
| SgtMunro |
Posted - October 21 2003 : 6:19:12 PM
Hawk, did you know that Griffing paints himself into any print which involves more than a couple of people. It is sort of like his tag-line. For instance in 'Within A Mile of Bushy Run Station' he is the grey-coated militiaman to the right of the Regimental Colors. It is something interesting to look for on any print of his with multiple subjects.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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| Hawkeye_Joe |
Posted - October 21 2003 : 10:20:08 AM
Also if you have never seen John Buxton's "Damn the Capitulation" it's another stirring work on the subject of Ft. Necessity.
DAMN THE CAPITULATION:
Fort Necessity was a hastily constructed fort built by young Colonel George Washington (in Red Coat facing left with back towards you) and his 300 men in an attempt to defend themselves from an approaching army of 600 French marine and Canadian militia and several hundred of their Indian allies. After Washington was implicated in the death of French officer Joseph Coulon de Jumonville a month earlier (the first shots of the French and Indian War), the French relentlessly pursued Washington's forces until their encounter at the Great Meadows, where Ft. Necessity was erected. On July 3rd, the battle began with the Virginia and British forces suffering extensive casualties and facing very low provisions. Near midnight, Washington accepted surrender terms by the French which allowed them to leave the fort with their colors and arms.
Part of the terms of surrender were violated when Major Adam Stephen's servant called to him that his clothes were being looted. He rushed to the offenders, seized his trunk, and kicked the thief in the backsides. Two French officers warned that if, "he struck the men and behaved so, they could not be answerable to the capitulation". Stephen damned the capitulation and swore that the French had already violated it with their plundering.
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| Hawkeye_Joe |
Posted - October 21 2003 : 10:09:40 AM
Griffing always amazes me with the depth and feel of his paintings. They are always accurate representations of the subject matter as well, his research is impeccable.
THE CROSSING:
At 11:00 am on July 9, 1755, General Braddock's army reached the second ford of the Monongahela. Braddock, on his bay horse with his aides Washington (in blue) and Orme on either side, accompanied by bodyguards were set to observe the crossing. On the far side of the river where John Fraser's cabin lay charred, workers were busy making the slope possible for the main body of the army to cross. With drums beating and fifes playing, the Redcoats of Sir Peter Halket's Forty-Fourth crossed the river at 1:00 pm with the rest to follow closely. At 2:00 pm, the bulk of the army had reached the northern shore and began their trek towards Duquesne |
| richfed |
Posted - October 21 2003 : 05:50:35 AM
Just came upon this now ... awesome painting, Hawkeye Joe! To my old eyes, it almost looks like a photo. I thought it was a reenactment at first look. I feel like I'm right there ... looking at that!
[Remember, folks, clicking on the photo will bring it to full size!] |
| SgtMunro |
Posted - October 21 2003 : 02:12:09 AM
No problem Lloyd. The sources include Brassey's 'Uniforms of the British Army', any of Stuart Reid's works (He does alot of his research through regimental records and War Office records of Royal Warrants), as well as any number of authorities (who do their research the same way Mr. Reid does). The fact is, that there was a finite number of colors for facings in the British Army of the 18th century, each color had to be approved at the Horse Guards (18th century equivilant to the CINCArmy), or draughted as part of a Royal Warrant from the Sovereign.
Now to answer your other question regarding the shade of a patricular color changing during the course of the war. I have not found any document supporting such a therory (not saying that one couldn't exist, it is just my opinion based on what I have read). There may have been variation in a particular color, due to different dye consentration, quality control, etc. (In the 20th century U.S. military, there were always noticible differences in uniform color shading, with different lot numbers, and that was with modern production techniques). All in all, the color would have remained a constant, albeit with minor shading differences, unless orders came from above to change it.
To sum it up, it is my opinion that the darker green is correct, based on my research and the observation that every other regiment in the British Army which was "faced green", used the darker color. Either way, you won't be so wrong as to not be able to perform your impression.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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| mnchiefs502001 |
Posted - October 20 2003 : 10:33:19 AM
Sgt Munro,
Could you send the sources of the Independent Companies facing colors. I would be really interested as I have thought that the color should be a darker green as well.
Another question, Is it possible that the color was both the lighter and darker shades depending on the time frame of the war?
Regards,
Lloyd |
| SgtMunro |
Posted - October 14 2003 : 12:10:50 AM
Actually Fitz, Brassey's describes it as a dark green faced uniform. This is also confirmed in several other source documents on the British Army of the period.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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| Fitz Williams |
Posted - October 14 2003 : 12:06:47 AM
I have read that the picture represents the SC Independent Company in the foreground. Would that be correct? The facings on the coats do seem to be green, but not the "celery" green used at Fort Loudoun. |
| SgtMunro |
Posted - October 13 2003 : 11:51:46 PM
The above print is Robert Griffing's 'A Charming Field for an Encounter', and it is availible through Paramount Press or Lord Nelson's Gallery. The cost is about $40.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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| Al Amos |
Posted - October 13 2003 : 11:29:45 PM
Hawkeye,
That is a sweet pic. Where did you find it?
al |
| Hawkeye_Joe |
Posted - October 13 2003 : 2:46:15 PM
I did find a reference to an Officer at Necessity that was sacked by Washington for not supporting MacKay's arrayed troops causing them to fall back, but I can't get the site I found it in to open today .. maybe later on I can have something..Most discriptions have Washington displaying his troops in line of battle but the French Forces not abliging and Washington realizing this fell back to his fortifications.
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| Al Amos |
Posted - October 13 2003 : 12:47:02 AM
"Capt.Mackay formed his company up in open order outside of Fort Necessity in an attempt to engage the French with Napoleanic(linear)tactics"
I would disagree with the above from what I've read.
My understanding is that Washington formed his troops up in line of battle, and oredered his troops back into the fort and trenches after realizing the French weren't going to play the game his way. Early in Washington's career he very much wanted to be an officer of the Crown and do war the British way. This can be seen during the Revolution as well as he, time and again, pitted his army against the Brits in their style of warfare, as opposed to the guerilla style adopted in the Southern Campaign.
As for a French Order of Battle I have a few details, I hope they help and hope that someone may have more information.
Cne de Villiers led a body of some 600 men, Troupes de la marine and Candiene milice and Ameridian allies.
Another source states "500 men and 400 natives"
and antoher "July 4, 1754:Washington surrenders Ft. Necessity to French and their Indian allies (Caughnawagas, Lake of the Two Mountains, Nipissings, Algonquins, Hurons, Abenakis, Iroquois of La Presentation and Ottawas)"
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| Highlander |
Posted - October 12 2003 : 9:03:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jumonville
Is there an order of battle for the French forces that participated in the Fort Necessity action? Where can I find French accounts of the action?
Appreciate any help.
Scott
The French order of battle was to stay on higher ground behind the cover of trees and fire down into the fort.Capt.Mackay formed his company up in open order outside of Fort Necessity in an attempt to engage the French with Napoleanic(linear)tactics. |
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