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Don't mention the war in Afghanistan

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[quote][i]Originally posted by Ilse[/i]
[br]From the Independent:
[url]http://www.independent.co.uk/[/url]

Robert Fisk: Don't mention the war in Afghanistan

The near collapse of peace in this savage land is a narrative erased from the mind of Americans
05 February 2003

There's one sure bet about the statement to be made to the UN Security Council today by the US Secretary of State, Colin Powell – or by General Colin Powell as he has now been mysteriously reassigned by the American press: he won't be talking about Afghanistan.

For since the Afghan war is the "successful" role model for America's forthcoming imperial adventure across the Middle East, the near-collapse of peace in this savage land and the steady erosion of US forces in Afghanistan – the nightly attacks on American and other international troops, the anarchy in the cities outside Kabul, the warlordism and drug trafficking and steadily increasing toll of murders – are unmentionables, a narrative constantly erased from the consciousness of Americans who are now sending their young men and women by the tens of thousands to stage another "success" story.

This article is written in President George Bush's home state of Texas, where the flags fly at half-staff for the Columbia crew, where the dispatch to the Middle East of further troops of the 108th Air Defence Artillery Brigade from Fort Bliss and the imminent deployment from Holloman Air Force Base in neighbouring New Mexico of undisclosed numbers of F-117 Nighthawk stealth bombers earned a mere 78-word down-page inside "nib" report in the local Austin newspaper.

Only in New York and Washington do the neo-conservative pundits suggest – obscenely – that the death of the Columbia crew may well have heightened America's resolve and "unity" to support the Bush adventure in Iraq. A few months ago, we would still have been asked to believe that the post-war "success" in Afghanistan augured well for the post-war success in Iraq.

So let's break through the curtain for a while and peer into the fastness of the land that both President Bush and Prime Minister Blair promised not to forget. Hands up those who know that al-Qa'ida has a radio station operating inside Afghanistan which calls for a holy war against America? It's true. Hands up again anyone who can guess how many of the daily weapons caches discovered by US troops in the country have been brought into Afghanistan since America's "successful" war? Answer: up to 25 per cent.

Have any US troops retreated from their positions along the Afghan-Pakistan border? None, you may say. And you would be wrong. At least five positions, according to Pakistani sources on the other side of the frontier, only one of which has been admitted by US forces. On 11 December, US troops abandoned their military outpost at Lwara after nightly rocket attacks which destroyed several American military vehicles. Their Afghan allies were driven out only days later and al-Qa'ida fighters then stormed the US compound and burnt it to the ground.

It's a sign of just how seriously America's mission in Afghanistan is collapsing that the majestically conservative Wall Street Journal – normally a beacon of imperial and Israeli policy in the Middle East and South-west Asia – has devoted a long and intriguing article to the American retreat, though of course that's not what the paper calls it.

"Soldiers still confront an invisible enemy,'' is the title of Marc Kaufman's first-class investigation, a headline almost identical to one which appeared over a Fisk story a year or so after Russia's invasion of Afghanistan in 1979-80. The soldiers in my dispatch, of course, were Russian. Indeed, just as I recall the Soviet officer who told us all at Bagram air base that the "mujahedin terrorism remnants" were all that was left of the West's conspiracy against peace-loving (and Communist) Afghans, so I observed the American spokesmen – yes, at the very same Bagram air base – who today cheerfully assert that al-Qa'ida "remnants" a
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Ilse	Posted - February 07 2003 : 8:07:02 PM From the Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/ Robert Fisk: Don't mention the war in Afghanistan The near collapse of peace in this savage land is a narrative erased from the mind of Americans 05 February 2003 There's one sure bet about the statement to be made to the UN Security Council today by the US Secretary of State, Colin Powell – or by General Colin Powell as he has now been mysteriously reassigned by the American press: he won't be talking about Afghanistan. For since the Afghan war is the "successful" role model for America's forthcoming imperial adventure across the Middle East, the near-collapse of peace in this savage land and the steady erosion of US forces in Afghanistan – the nightly attacks on American and other international troops, the anarchy in the cities outside Kabul, the warlordism and drug trafficking and steadily increasing toll of murders – are unmentionables, a narrative constantly erased from the consciousness of Americans who are now sending their young men and women by the tens of thousands to stage another "success" story. This article is written in President George Bush's home state of Texas, where the flags fly at half-staff for the Columbia crew, where the dispatch to the Middle East of further troops of the 108th Air Defence Artillery Brigade from Fort Bliss and the imminent deployment from Holloman Air Force Base in neighbouring New Mexico of undisclosed numbers of F-117 Nighthawk stealth bombers earned a mere 78-word down-page inside "nib" report in the local Austin newspaper. Only in New York and Washington do the neo-conservative pundits suggest – obscenely – that the death of the Columbia crew may well have heightened America's resolve and "unity" to support the Bush adventure in Iraq. A few months ago, we would still have been asked to believe that the post-war "success" in Afghanistan augured well for the post-war success in Iraq. So let's break through the curtain for a while and peer into the fastness of the land that both President Bush and Prime Minister Blair promised not to forget. Hands up those who know that al-Qa'ida has a radio station operating inside Afghanistan which calls for a holy war against America? It's true. Hands up again anyone who can guess how many of the daily weapons caches discovered by US troops in the country have been brought into Afghanistan since America's "successful" war? Answer: up to 25 per cent. Have any US troops retreated from their positions along the Afghan-Pakistan border? None, you may say. And you would be wrong. At least five positions, according to Pakistani sources on the other side of the frontier, only one of which has been admitted by US forces. On 11 December, US troops abandoned their military outpost at Lwara after nightly rocket attacks which destroyed several American military vehicles. Their Afghan allies were driven out only days later and al-Qa'ida fighters then stormed the US compound and burnt it to the ground. It's a sign of just how seriously America's mission in Afghanistan is collapsing that the majestically conservative Wall Street Journal – normally a beacon of imperial and Israeli policy in the Middle East and South-west Asia – has devoted a long and intriguing article to the American retreat, though of course that's not what the paper calls it. "Soldiers still confront an invisible enemy,'' is the title of Marc Kaufman's first-class investigation, a headline almost identical to one which appeared over a Fisk story a year or so after Russia's invasion of Afghanistan in 1979-80. The soldiers in my dispatch, of course, were Russian. Indeed, just as I recall the Soviet officer who told us all at Bagram air base that the "mujahedin terrorism remnants" were all that was left of the West's conspiracy against peace-loving (and Communist) Afghans, so I observed the American spokesmen – yes, at the very same Bagram air base – who today cheerfully assert that al-Qa'ida "remnants" a
24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Bea	Posted - February 18 2003 : 10:05:19 AM Well, since I am our church librarian it was my duty to read it..:)It was an interesting read and I must admit that I was VERY surprised about one of the bios..but it wasn't so much the bios I was interested in but how they experienced life in Afghanistan...
Lainey	Posted - February 18 2003 : 02:06:22 AM You're welcome, Bea. I hope I did give a bit of the coin's other side. As for 'Prisoners of Hope," I can't comment on the book as I haven't read it. While I admire the women's commitment to charitable works, & I was very happy they were freed, I don't see anything extraordinary in them or their lives that would inspire me to read their book which seems to be mini-bios of their lives. But then, I am a hard sell. {Scott, it's that Longshanks thing. Beware ...}
Bea	Posted - February 15 2003 : 2:54:18 PM Elaine, I had mentioned at the very beginning that this wasn't all about Dr. Samar. I simply added a little snippet ( which I guess I shouldn't have since it obviously took away from the focus of the whole article) to add to Ilse's original post about the situation in Afghanistan. Also, it was a quote from the above mentioned article and the net-info that was available to me ( one of them where Samar mentions that she is generally against abortion) where Samar was portrayed as a hero in Afghanistan. That doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with that. Obviously you don't deem her a hero ..:)And--no heroes in my life either..:):) I thank you very much for making the effort to post your sources as I felt before that a certain balance was missing.. As to getting more info, I'd love to do so but I am on very limited internet time..I hope to change that, piggybank permitting.. Oh, and am still interested in your opinion regarding PRISONERS OF HOPE which is written by Dayna Curry and Heather Mercy...I know Ilse's opinion..:):)
Lainey	Posted - February 15 2003 : 01:12:53 AM Bea, quote: The first part was me joking around.. And yes,truth can be packaged it many ways. Either by portraying one too wonderful or as a person only having ulterior motives! Of course I was surprised. I had no reason to doubt an award winning reporter/reporters or numerous European articles..Elaine, I would certainly like to know where you got your info from.Perhaps you could post the sources? First source can be found already in this thread; the RAWA statement posted in full. Second; Shuhada.org ... Samar's own organization. Here you can reference firsthand the financial backers for Dr. Samar's "programs" - such as the literacy program that offers reading, food, & "family planning" as one package. (Is that bribery or blackmail .. I wonder?) The Guardian.UK WHO.org www.bbc.co.uk www.rawa.org http://rawa.org/japant.htm http://rawa.org/allgemeine.htm Etcetera ... I'll just recommend a search. You'll find well over 4000 returns, including Dr. Samar's sharia statements made in Canada while accepting the Humphrey Award (nominated by Armstrong). This isn't really about Dr. Sima Samar at all, but it does serve to illustrate that there's a bigger, dismal reality in Afghanistan that doesn't seem to fit the agenda & isn't in the 'numerous European articles' nor Sally Armstrong's award winning pieces. The following article, also from RAWA's website, is worth reading for this very reason. It goes back to my point regarding truth vs packaging. (I never suggested Samar had only ulterior motives .... as I never proclaimed her a hero to Afghan women & children.) "Saving" Afghan Women by Sonali Kolhatkar As I got ready to be interviewed by Helen Caldicott, the famous Helen Caldicott, activist and feminist, I remarked to my fellow interviewee how excited I was to be speaking with one of my heroes. I had heard Helen on the radio and read articles about her and her brave campaigns to fight nuclear weapons and environmental degradation. Helen was late but it didn't matter I was elated about being interviewed by her. About forty five minutes after we were suppose to begin, we finally did. She began by asking me about my work with the Afghan Women's Mission and Afghan women's rights. Despite my nervousness, I answered calmly, but Helen wouldn't let me finish my sentences. She kept asking me to talk about why Afghan men treated women in the way they did. I tried to talk about the US empowerment of misogynist fundamentalists in Afghanistan and how US support had raised a generation of men who abused the power of their guns on women. But she angled for another answer and kept pushing me to try to read her mind and tell her what she wanted to hear. Thrown off balance by her aggressive questioning, I finally gave up and she proceeded to tell me all about female genital mutilation which the Feminist Majority had apparently told her, took place among Afghan women. Aghast at this information, which in my years of carefully studying the issue of Afghan women's rights, I had never come across, I mumbled that it was not something I was aware of. The interview ended as I took the headphones off and walked out, angry and frustrated with Helen ranting about the barbarity of women's vaginas being sewn up and that Afghan men did not want women to be able to have orgasms. I raced over to my computer to do some research. Could I have been wrong? Was FGM really prevalent among Afghan women? I couldn't imagine it. I had known of it happening to women in some African countries. Surely I would have heard of it happening in a country geographically and culturally close to my home country of India, a country I had studied closely? Well it turns out Ms. Caldicott was wrong. Female Genital Mutilation is not practiced in Afg
Bea	Posted - February 13 2003 : 1:34:53 PM <<<It isn't about hockey or being Canadian, Bea. It's about truth vs packaging. As you said, Dr. Samar has a good reputation in Canada & Europe YET you "were quite surprised" about my post's additional content. Of course there's more to Samar than her UNPF deal & RAWA's opposition, but since she's so popular & well reputed in Canada why didn't you know all that already? Truth vs packaging.>> The first part was me joking around.. And yes,truth can be packaged it many ways. Either by portraying one too wonderful or as a person only having ulterior motives! Of course I was surprised. I had no reason to doubt an award winning reporter/reporters or numerous European articles..Elaine, I would certainly like to know where you got your info from.Perhaps you could post the sources?
Lainey	Posted - February 13 2003 : 11:41:07 AM "Also, let me clarify that I am in no way a fervent supporter or defender of Dr. Samar. Since she has a good reputation all over Europe and in Canada, I must admit that I was quite surprised about the things you posted. From the info I have seen about her on the net there seems to be more about her than just abortion and artificial insemination..But I guess us Canadians may be wrong, eh??? :)Perhaps we'd better just stick to hockey.." It isn't about hockey or being Canadian, Bea. It's about truth vs packaging. As you said, Dr. Samar has a good reputation in Canada & Europe YET you "were quite surprised" about my post's additional content. Of course there's more to Samar than her UNPF deal & RAWA's opposition, but since she's so popular & well reputed in Canada why didn't you know all that already? Truth vs packaging.
Ilse	Posted - February 12 2003 : 5:46:40 PM quote: Hi Ilse. My understanding (as Lainey has posted elsewhere) is that the rockets fell hundreds of yards from the compound, and that no one knows who fired them or what target was intended. Not an example of Afghan marksmanship at it's best. Perhaps a couple of teenagers out for a lark? Afghanistan has always been a pretty wild and wooly place. I believe Alexander found it so when he passed through. Perhaps you thought we'd work an overnight miracle? We're good, but ... Hi Scott, 400 metres from the compound actually. Does the fact they missed means nothing happened, though? There was a time when Afghanistan was the country of poets and philosophers, though. In the 60's Kabul was high on the tourist map for being the most cosmopolitan of cities in that region. Their version of Islam was the most tolerant to be found. 20 odd years of war can surely destroy a lot. No, I never thought you'd work an overnight miracle. Perhaps, I'm foolish, and I thought the international community learned their lesson from the debacle of 10 years ago, and put in a genuine effort this time around. But I don't see that happening. Ilse
Bea	Posted - February 10 2003 : 11:26:19 PM Elaine, I still believe one can read as much as one wants to in order to gather pertinent info,but to actually see things with one's very own eyes is a very different matter. I can read tons about the situation in, let's say Bosnia, but I will give more credit to a person who has been there..A guy, like my friend Darryl, who was there as a Canadian peacekeeper and has seen things you and I may never get to hear about. But, to each it's own..:) My initial point wasn't so much about Dr. Samar but regarding the whole article Mrs. Armstrong wrote. Also, let me clarify that I am in no way a fervent supporter or defender of Dr. Samar. Since she has a good reputation all over Europe and in Canada, I must admit that I was quite surprised about the things you posted. From the info I have seen about her on the net there seems to be more about her than just abortion and artificial insemination..But I guess us Canadians may be wrong, eh??? :)Perhaps we'd better just stick to hockey..
Scott Bubar	Posted - February 10 2003 : 11:19:54 PM quote: Originally posted by Ilse ... Today the Turkish handed over command of ISAF to the Dutch and Germans. Two rockets were fired at the compound and all foreign and Afghan officials had to take cover. There is more fighting going on in the last two months than in the whole of 2002. ... Hi Ilse. My understanding (as Lainey has posted elsewhere) is that the rockets fell hundreds of yards from the compound, and that no one knows who fired them or what target was intended. Not an example of Afghan marksmanship at it's best. Perhaps a couple of teenagers out for a lark? Afghanistan has always been a pretty wild and wooly place. I believe Alexander found it so when he passed through. Perhaps you thought we'd work an overnight miracle? We're good, but ... We really went over there to bounce the sleek Taliban and get a chance to hunt their boyfriends. That's pretty much what we've done. Of course, it also gives us a bit of a base on the eastern flank of the Middle East. Unfortunately, it's a landlocked one, which makes resupply difficult and puts us at the mercy of the neighbors. Now, Iraq doesn't have that particular problem ...
Lainey	Posted - February 10 2003 : 10:47:48 PM Hi Bea, quote: Elaine, unfortunately I don't have the whole article in front of me (gave the mag to my friend) but from what I remember she didn't not completely reject Sharia, only certain parts where the oppression of women is concerned. I was not aware of her clinics but even if I wouldn't agree with abortion or artificial insemination the fact remains that women at least have a CHOICE. The article is not only on Dr. Samar but deals with the overall situation in Afghanistan the way Ilse described it. From where we are sitting it is rather difficult to judge the situation as we in North America only get the 'tip of the iceberg'. Why do I know that? Because I follow the European news and have subsribed to a German mag. I am absolutely amazed at that. Anyhow, I found Sally Armstrong's article well researched and at least she travelled there to get a first hand look.. She completely denounced Sharia & she did so in Canada. Not an improper position ... unless you're an internationally celebrated Afghan woman who has lived away from Afghan for years & you're coveting a ministerial position in a Sharia bound Islamic country. Sort of a fool's errand. Pitching abortion to Afghan women isn't choice, it's more plunder. From where I sit it isn't difficult to judge it at all. The difficulty is projecting a dignified, positive outcome that actually reveals an Afghan future. Thankfully, I consume news far & wide & allot the pundits proper irrelevance. Well before September 11 occurred I was following the Afghanistan abduction, at least to some reasonable degree. I wondered why few seemed interested in the Friday executions on the soccer fields, or the rape & executions of Afghan women & girls, or the secretive schools that operated under pain of death, or the significance of the destruction of the Bhudda statues (which the world noticed but failed to comprehend), or the stories of mass graves at the feet of the Bhuddas ... I WAS aware of RAWA & Afghanistan. Here is a RAWA statement from last year that addresses much of this topic's questions. It is far more comprehensive in its reconstruction suggestions & blunt indictments than any other 'plan' I've seen. Note the 1964 Afghan Constitution & RAWA's proposed amendments. You couldn't be more direct than this. {War lords, opium trade, Islamic fundamentalists, pervasive corruption, etc remain key points ...) Statement on International Women's Day, Mar.8, 2002 Let Us Struggle Against War and Fundamentalism and for Peace and Democracy! Partisans of freedom, sisters and brothers, When celebrating March 8th last year, RAWA expressed the fond hope that in the coming year, i.e. 2002, we will be celebrating International Women's Day inside a free and liberated Afghanistan. During the course of the past year the world community was shocked by events emanating from Afghanistan and contemporary history has been drastically changed by them. Many things have come to pass in Afghanistan -not the least of which is the fumigation of the Taliban pestilence and their al-Qaeda carriers- but it is with bitter disappointment that despite all these momentous changes our unhappy land is still far from enjoying freedom and liberty. The women of the world celebrate International Women's Day with spirit and enthusiasm; in Afghanistan women still don't feel safe enough to throw away their wretched burqa shrouds, let alone raise their voices in the thousands in support of freedom and democracy. There is still a wide chasm between us and the glorious future we have fixed our eyes, hearts and minds upon. It is as if Fate has decreed that this most pauperised nation on earth should not be able to throw the chains and shackles of despots and vampire fundamentalists away so easily. To
Scott Bubar	Posted - February 10 2003 : 9:55:20 PM quote: Originally posted by richfed quote: Originally posted by Scott Bubar quote: Originally posted by richfed Wow ... Gee Rich. You sound just like our dads did back then. ;) Yeah, I really do, don't I?!? Dearly departed Dad would be proud ... I guess I've come full circle. Last time we "chatted," I was 17 and vehemently scolding him for supporting the right-wing, Fascist, oppressive, war-mongering military/industrial complex of our corrupt, imperialist government ... Oh well ... I recall a few chats like that myself Rich. Sorry to hear you didn't have more time. I believe he would indeed be proud of you on a number of scores.
Bea	Posted - February 10 2003 : 7:08:29 PM I found this link on the author, Sally Armstrong: http://www.prospeakers.com/speakers/default.asp?load=armstrong Ilse, do you have a link regarding the German/Dutch take over? Rumsfeld using Afghanistan as a model for Iraq???? Good night!!
Bea	Posted - February 10 2003 : 6:56:16 PM Elaine, unfortunately I don't have the whole article in front of me (gave the mag to my friend) but from what I remember she didn't not completely reject Sharia, only certain parts where the oppression of women is concerned. I was not aware of her clinics but even if I wouldn't agree with abortion or artificial insemination the fact remains that women at least have a CHOICE. The article is not only on Dr. Samar but deals with the overall situation in Afghanistan the way Ilse described it. From where we are sitting it is rather difficult to judge the situation as we in North America only get the 'tip of the iceberg'. Why do I know that? Because I follow the European news and have subsribed to a German mag. I am absolutely amazed at that. Anyhow, I found Sally Armstrong's article well researched and at least she travelled there to get a first hand look.. Now I am straying a wee bit off topic but I'd like to know if you have read the book: Prisoners of Hope?
Lainey	Posted - February 10 2003 : 4:14:43 PM quote: Lainey, I sense you see the Afghan troubles as temporary. I cannot share that believe. The situation is not convulsing, it is deteriorating, rapidly. International troops are under fire constantly. Karzai cannot leave Kabul because of fear of assassination. He is protected by American bodyguards, because he can't trust his own army and police. Today the Turkish handed over command of ISAF to the Dutch and Germans. Two rockets were fired at the compound and all foreign and Afghan officials had to take cover. There is more fighting going on in the last two months than in the whole of 2002. Hekmatyar is back and aligned himself with remaining Taliban and Al Quaida. The place is desintegrating and falling back into chaos. Today my newspaper cited Rumsfeld, saying Afghanistan could be a good model for Iraq. Right. As for Sima Samar: maybe her biggest problem, apart from being a woman in Afghanistan, is being Hazara in Afghanistan, the most discriminated against ethnic minority. Her remark on Sharia was careless, because it gave her opponents the opportunity to get rid of her. Contraception and abortion? No big deal to me in a country where maternal mortality is among the leading causes of death. Ilse, No, I don't think it's temporary at all. My comments were in response to the article's suggestion that all should already be well in Afghanistan, and that it isn't is due to US failure. Afghanistan, as you itemized, is a country in crisis. The whys & the hows need be addressed, not covered up. Neither UN peacekeeping nor US bombing is going to fix Afghanistan. What will? I really don't know, short of the people painfully defining who they are & what form of society they wish to have. (Perhaps some REAL assistance in the form of food & the means to produce it in the future? Perhaps some harsh actions by Karzai's government, backed with force, to destroy that which will destroy Afghanistan's future? Warlords, opium trade, ethnic hostilities ...) As for Samar; such careless or reckless attitudes will not heal or better Afghanistan, her ethnicity notwithstanding. Abortion & contraception is but another band-aid approach. Maternal deaths are very high in Afghanistan but not because of a reproductive charter vacuum. There are many readily defined causes & CHIEF among them is malnutrition from infancy on. Again - the politics of hunger. UNFPC isn't going to remedy that.
Ilse	Posted - February 10 2003 : 3:48:43 PM Lainey, I sense you see the Afghan troubles as temporary. I cannot share that believe. The situation is not convulsing, it is deteriorating, rapidly. International troops are under fire constantly. Karzai cannot leave Kabul because of fear of assassination. He is protected by American bodyguards, because he can't trust his own army and police. Today the Turkish handed over command of ISAF to the Dutch and Germans. Two rockets were fired at the compound and all foreign and Afghan officials had to take cover. There is more fighting going on in the last two months than in the whole of 2002. Hekmatyar is back and aligned himself with remaining Taliban and Al Quaida. The place is desintegrating and falling back into chaos. Today my newspaper cited Rumsfeld, saying Afghanistan could be a good model for Iraq. Right. As for Sima Samar: maybe her biggest problem, apart from being a woman in Afghanistan, is being Hazara in Afghanistan, the most discriminated against ethnic minority. Her remark on Sharia was careless, because it gave her opponents the opportunity to get rid of her. Contraception and abortion? No big deal to me in a country where maternal mortality is among the leading causes of death.
Lainey	Posted - February 10 2003 : 11:41:50 AM quote: Remember Dr.Sima Samar who was voted as a minister of the cabinet? The anti-women warlords took care of her: Since she spoke out to freely President Hamar Karzai had to drop her from the cabinet.Samar was/is the hero of the women and children in Afghanistan and now lives surrounded by a 3 metre high wall which has razor wire on top. As well she is in need of bodyguards.. Actually, Bea, it's a bit more than speaking too freely. In Afghanistan Samar is seen as a pliant puppet of western concepts of acceptable societal mores. While touring western countries (like Canada) she stated her complete rejection of Sharia (Islamic law). Since Afghanistan IS a Muslim country, & Sharia IS a Muslim code of law, her denouncement, especially while in a western country, would hardly lend itself to her remaining a minister of the cabinet. Regardless of what you, or I, or anyone else thinks of Sharia it remains an intrinsical element of Afghan law. Karzai, on the other hand, said of Sharia; In a just country Sharia can be implemented without disregard for human rights or freedom. He addresses the need for justice in Afghanistan; Samar simply wishes to restructure based upon western ideals. Also, Samar's "mission" is not only education & rights for women (which many other credible, dedicated persons pursue with noble fortitude), but to bring to Afghanistan's women & girls, through her well funded UNFPC 'clinics,' the "right" of artificial contraception & abortion. Again, this is a Muslim country which rejects artificial contraception & abortion as immoral. Why would they roll over & embrace Dr. Samar & her western money to self-genocide? This IS the Afghanistan view & western sensitivities are completely irrelevant. I don't think it is accurate to refer to Dr. Samar as a "hero" to Afghan women & children.
richfed	Posted - February 10 2003 : 05:04:55 AM quote: Originally posted by Scott Bubar quote: Originally posted by richfed Wow ... Gee Rich. You sound just like our dads did back then. ;) Yeah, I really do, don't I?!? Dearly departed Dad would be proud ... I guess I've come full circle. Last time we "chatted," I was 17 and vehemently scolding him for supporting the right-wing, Fascist, oppressive, war-mongering military/industrial complex of our corrupt, imperialist government ... Oh well ...
Lainey	Posted - February 09 2003 : 7:24:32 PM Gee, Scott~ It's just like you to sneak in a post while I'm still writing mine. quote: And why would he create a straw man in implying that Powell should address the Afghanistan issue in a discussion of Iraq? Because his whole premise is one of a straw man. While correctly illuminating Afghanistan's troubles, he irrelevantly indicts America.
Lainey	Posted - February 09 2003 : 7:12:23 PM Hey Ilse, Actually, imperialism is mentioned twice. (References to the upcoming "imperial adventure" in the mideast & 'neo-conservative' WST's usual imperialist pov.) Imperialism shouldn't be such a buzz word anyway. It's pretty much a characteristic, at times, of whomever happens to hold more power. From the US to Britian, Iroquois to China, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Having said that, the article is very interesting for its focus on Afghanistan's continuing troubles, especially since the attention span of the world has long been exhausted on that 'item.' But, are the post-Taliban Afghan political/social/economic convulsions so unexpected? Did anyone really believe there would be instant nirvana within a nation so long ravaged as Afghanistan has been? Of course it's still a mess (and it would be advisable to all to refrain from judging its mess based upon & imposition of western ideas as if the world must march in step to such concepts). It'll take a long time to recreate, cultivate, & support a nation that protects & respects human dignity & human rights, in my opinion, the true standard of measure for any civilization, and it won't push forward until Al Qaeda & various Arab 'agitators' are neutered. While I can appreciate Fisk's reporting & attempts to illuminate actual problems that exist, I find his position & indictments dishonest. You are right, Ilse, in underscoring the problem/failure to be one of nation-building & by stating who has assumed that mighty task (the EU, not the United States). As Adele would say, "Spot on!" It isn't a military failure, it's simply an enormous, time consuming cultural-social problem that can not be 'corrected' in short order. It should be remembered that there IS still some liberation for the people of Afghan. Complete & joyous liberation will take a long time & a lot of work. Fisk has pointed to the post-war 'failures' & laid them at the feet of "neo-conservative" America. Not true, not logical. Nowhere does Fisk mention the UN or the EU or its role in Afghanistan while crying the Afghan sky is falling. Nowhere does he mention nation-building or its obstacles when he chastises America for premeditated silence. Everywhere he condemns American military, American press, Americans, American policies, & American blindness. He refers to America's "mission" without ever grasping what that mission is. So, drawing from the article its valid & important focus on Afghanistan's crisis, what do you see for the future? How can the EU properly & successfully assist Afghanistan in rebuilding a stable, viable, sovereign nation? I assume Dutch press has bantered about the upcoming changing of the guard? Would like to hear more ... (By the way, belated birthday greetings to the EU & St. Thomas More! A Man for All Seasons & A Season for All Man ...) Now on to your other post regarding anti-Europeanism & anti-Americanism ... a gem of a topic! :) Oh, & then there's France ...
Scott Bubar	Posted - February 09 2003 : 6:50:43 PM quote: Originally posted by richfed Wow ... Gee Rich. You sound just like our dads did back then. ;) I totally agree with you. Fisk should really know better. He is after all a Brit and is very well educated in the area, both academically and by experience. Perhaps he's a bit peeved that we've done a whole lot better in Afghanistan than Brittania did in the empire-building escapades with Russia back under Victoria? And why would he create a straw man in implying that Powell should address the Afghanistan issue in a discussion of Iraq? Of course, Iraq only exists as a result of British re-engineering of the area. But then I guess that history of imperial tampering with unfortunate results qualifies him to hand out advice to the new kids on the block. G
Bea	Posted - February 09 2003 : 5:34:03 PM Unfortunately the article is not on the net but Canadian posters can find it in Chatelaine. I am looking forward to the CBC special "The PASSIONATE EYE : The Daughters of Afghanistan. The author is Sally Armstrong who travelled to Afghanistan last fall to find out how the situation had actually changed. No, there is no security outside Kabul and no, the situation for women isn't much better either.. Remember Dr.Sima Samar who was voted as a minister of the cabinet? The anti-women warlords took care of her: Since she spoke out to freely President Hamar Karzai had to drop her from the cabinet.Samar was/is the hero of the women and children in Afghanistan and now lives surrounded by a 3 metre high wall which has razor wire on top. As well she is in need of bodyguards..
Bea	Posted - February 09 2003 : 3:31:51 PM Good post, Ilse! I share your view regarding the situation in Afghanistan, as I read an article penned by a Canadian author about the situation of women in this still war-torn country.Am pressed for time right now but I am hoping to find this article on the net as it provided many interesting FACTS. BTW the ladie's report will be shown on CBC.. In the meantime please keep me posted either via this forum or private e-mail on the Dutch/German leadership.
Ilse	Posted - February 09 2003 : 2:39:33 PM You're overreacting. Nowhere in this article is a mention of American "imperialism". What it sums up nicely though, is the current situation in Afghanistan. And that isn't good news. Taliban gone? Yes. Women's rights restored? Hell, no. Outside Kabul security is non-existant. This is not an American thing, if anything it isn't, because the US made it perfectly clear they were not there to nation build. Like it or not, that is the job specialization there is in the world right now. The US does the military thing, the EU does the nationbuilding thing. In this case the nationbuilding isn't working. And it's hardly getting any press anywhere. What's my interest then, apart from having an interest in Afghanistan in general? Tomorrow, February 10, the Dutch and Germans combined will take over leadership of ISAF in Kabul. Call it personal.
richfed	Posted - February 09 2003 : 07:20:52 AM Wow ... This attitude truly sickens me - I mean, it makes me feel ill. Bad enough it comes from some sectors of the European community, but it is also found in the persons of our most left-wing American agendists. Remnants of that can still be found in Washington, D.C. in the form of anti-war rally posters stuck here & there throughout the city's streets. Anti-war feelings, per se, are not a bad thing. I watched the rally in D.C. on C-SPAN a couple of weeks ago, though and here is the problem, as I see it. Funny thing is [well, not too funny, actually] that I can see today a repeat of what happened in my own anti-war crusade back in the late 60s/early 70s as I listened to the speakers, supposedly there because they were against a war in Iraq. Folks with an anti-American agenda - hate, really, for the principals of which this country is founded - tap into the genuine and idealistic energy flow of youth & mold it to suit their purposes. During that rally, I heard every leftist point of view that exists ... from bemoaning fat-cat Americans riding around in SUVs to criticizing Christian America ... all at a supposedly anti-war rally. And the crowd cheered. I can only hope that upon reflection, these folks realize they were simply caught up in the moment & weren't there for that! It was revolting to me, as it became so clear how WE, in our day, were manipulated to show support for values that had nothing to do with anti-Vietnam war feelings. It is political, nothing more ... quote: For since the Afghan war is the "successful" role model for America's forthcoming imperial adventure across the Middle East, the near-collapse of peace in this savage land and the steady erosion of US forces in Afghanistan – the nightly attacks on American and other international troops, the anarchy in the cities outside Kabul, the warlordism and drug trafficking and steadily increasing toll of murders ... Since when, I ask, has Afghanistan ever been the model for stability in the world? What fault of ours is it that Afghanistan is a shambles? It was before [where are the left-wing bemoaning the complete & utter disregard for women by the Taliban? Would they be happy if they were still in control?] and it probably will be long after. We attacked a bunch of mass murderers who feel it is ok to fly fuel-laden jets, packed with innocent people, into buildings, packed with more innocent people, in the name of Allah, because they don't like who we choose as friends ... but then, really, what reason would justify that?!? In the process, we took out the animals that harbored and supported this bunch ... Now, we stay and are criticized. Hmmm, seems we were roundly criticized for NOT staying in the earlier Russian/Afghan war. Can we ever hope to win? So, we are labeled "imperialist." Why? Because we are defending ourselves, for once?!? Boy, oh boy. How I wish that 9/11 attack, if it had to happen at all, had taken place on another nation's soil. Waaa ... waaa ... waaa ... Help us please, United States. HELP! We need you, United States! Waa ... waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Defend us! Feed us! Medicate us! Educate us! Befriend us in our time of need ... Imperial my ass! Let's take one aspect we don't like, for our OWN self-interests, I might add [ala France], and completely ignore the good this country does world-wide - far more than any other nation. Bad mouth a good & honest man, George W. Bush, believe a completely sick & ruthless one, Saddam ... the whole world really is on fire! Are we perfect? Heck no. Do we err? Of course. But, I sure would like to see the state of the world if ever we decide to stick our heads in the sand & let the rest of the world fend for themselves. It won't be a pretty sight. Pundit

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