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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Scott Bubar |
Posted - January 17 2004 : 6:39:32 PM
Granted, it's a complex issue, but this one took me a bit aback. From Reuters:
quote:
Country May Decriminalize Theft for the Hungry
Fri January 16, 2004 09:16 AM ET
CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Thou shalt not steal, say the Ten Commandments, but it might eventually no longer apply if you are starving in Venezuela.
The poor, oil-rich nation is considering decriminalizing the theft of food and medicine in cases where a thief is motivated by extreme hunger or need.
Supreme Court Judge Alejandro Angulo Fontiveros told Reuters on Wednesday that the so-called "famine theft" clause should be part of a broad penal code reform measure for humanitarian reasons.
"This is a guide for judges to avoid injustice," said Fontiveros, who is in charge of drafting the reforms. "They lock up for years a poor person who lives in atrocious misery and what they need is medicine."
Under Fontiveros' proposal to the Supreme Court, those who take food, medicine or inexpensive goods without using violence to ease hunger caused by prolonged, extreme poverty would not be punished.
To eventually become law, the proposal must pass through the Supreme Court and be approved by a two-thirds majority in the National Assembly.
Critics say the initiative will fuel crime in a country mired in a recession and where police last year reported an average of 25 murders a day and thousands of robberies a month.
Supporters dismiss fears it will become a license to rob, saying the proposed law would apply only to nonviolent crimes.
Two thirds of Venezuela's 25 million people are poor and a third of those cannot afford their basic food needs despite the nation's huge oil wealth, according to government figures.
Private analysts dismiss state figures as too conservative.
The penal reform effort has sparked more controversy by also including possible decriminalization of abortion and allowing voluntary euthanasia for the terminally ill.
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| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| LittleOne |
Posted - April 24 2004 : 12:10:10 PM
lol I'm so sorry i was so brash in my last post :) I just feel so bad..that we all have soo much and there are people in this world who have nothing..i bet most of them haven't even seen a computer..or watched a movie on TV ..poor people :( |
| LittleOne |
Posted - April 23 2004 : 10:20:54 PM
I think it is really upsetting that there are people in this world still starving and dying from hunger..people who have to resort to stealing to feed their childern..and i believe if it is for that reason, it is not bad for them to do it, i know i would if my family was starving..
Here we all are in the 20th 20st?? century, we can fly to the moon, touch the bottoms of deep oceans..spend millions of dollars on entertainment and luxury...and there are still people who can't even get enough food..they say were is the justice in stealing?? I say where is the justice in that. |
| marybo73 |
Posted - April 08 2004 : 02:20:17 AM
I know I was very lucky, I was in Europe, Germany to be exact. Their laws and government are not so strict or harsh as other countries.
Still have both hands and both feet though, no charges pressed against me and I'm very grateful for that.
Gotta smile!!!!  |
| SgtMunro |
Posted - April 05 2004 : 5:32:16 PM
quote:
But I was in a foreign country and had no help and no support. I was very lucky that I didn't get led out in handcuffs or charged for the food.
Actually Marybo, depending on the foreign country ,you are quite lucky that it did not lead to more. Those board members who are Gulf War I Vets, and who visited Rihyad (Saudi Arabia), remember a place us G.I.'s used to call 'Chop-Chop Square'. It was where public executions and punishments would take place. It was there in November of 1990, I had witnessed two thieves being punished. The first lost his hand (for commiting the theft) and the other lost both is right hand and right foot (for driving the get-away vehicle and leading the national police on a pursuit). Being a westerner, the locals parted like the proverbial 'Red Sea', and motioned us up toward the front so that we may see Saudi justice up close.
As I said before, it is all about making choices and paying for the wrong ones. Remember the T.V. show 'Baretta' from the 1970's? There was a little jingle, that quoted the main star's favorite saying, "Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time..."
Which, ironically, he himself may have to live up too...
Your Most Humble Servant,
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| marybo73 |
Posted - April 05 2004 : 4:59:44 PM
I don't condone stealing...never have...but I did what I had to do at that time. I know here in the States we have many ways of helping those that need it. But I was in a foreign country and had no help and no support. I was very lucky that I didn't get led out in handcuffs or charged for the food. 
I'm just different, I would suck as a judge because I would want to know why; how; when; and where and then judge if the person was guilty or not. I admit, I'm a wuss!  |
| Kaylynn44 |
Posted - April 05 2004 : 09:39:29 AM
Sarge,
None of us are condoning theft. It isn't right and even Marybo said that it wasn't. The store owner must have understood too, or else they would have prosecuted her. They not only didn't bring charges against her, but also let her have the food. These people understood her situation, and thankfully things turned out okay.
Kay |
| SgtMunro |
Posted - April 05 2004 : 08:58:50 AM
Okay, alot of this sounds to me like 'situational ethics' which has contributed to a good part of society's downfall. CCorner made a very good point, that is if you steal from someone you are forcing that person (The victim of the theft) to go without. Now there are some folks out there who will reply, "Well they can afford to go without it, for the greater good." Nobody has the right to determine what a person can afford to 'go without' when it comes to their property.
As to preventing starvation, speaking only for my country (United States), we have more than enough 'social safety nets' in place to avoid starvation. My view is simple, steal if you wish, but be ready to pay the price if you are caught...
Your Most Humble Servant,
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| ccorner |
Posted - April 04 2004 : 10:30:45 PM
As a nurse I have to say that there are supportive services out there such as soup kitchens, shelters and food pantrys. I am in NY. I am not saying anyone should go hungry, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I do believe that it is wrong to steal since the person you are stealing from will have to suffer for it. On the other hand, when you and your family are hungry, and the situation is one that there is no other choice, I have to say that it should be overlooked and that the family should receive free assistance to get back on their feet. |
| Scott Bubar |
Posted - April 04 2004 : 6:18:05 PM
You've got to start somewhere. |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - April 04 2004 : 09:48:28 AM
But... Scott... why didn't you "Go For The Gold?"
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| Scott Bubar |
Posted - April 04 2004 : 07:34:20 AM
I stole some bullion cubes once. (The kind you make soup with, not the gold variety.) |
| marybo73 |
Posted - April 04 2004 : 12:40:13 AM
First off I wanted to say thank you to all those that have welcomed me! You are all very sweet! Sorry it took me so long to reply back, some things had come up and then I was having probs with my darn laptop.
I don't think theft should be legalized but I guess it depends on the situation and the judge. I know I did caught stealing the food...I tell you I was in tears and luckily, the private detective let me go...with the food and no fine after he heard my story.
I hope no one finds themselves in a situation like that...it's hard and you are torn between what you know is right and what you need to do to care for those under you.
But anyway, thanks again for the warm welcome! And for the understanding (thought someone was going to jump on me for doing what I did!). |
| Christina |
Posted - March 31 2004 : 3:05:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kaylynn44
I don't think that any of us know exactly what we would do unless we were in that situation. Theft isn't right, but I do believe that it is more understandable when someone takes food instead of something like jewelry or electronics.
Anyway, WELCOME Marybo!!! We are glad that you are here!!!
Kay
Got to agree totally with Kaylynn on THIS one. and welcome Marybo as well!
I'm never an advocate of stealing when the situation isn't desperate, but I am also the first to admit that sometimes, there ARE desperate situations -- and we never know what we will do until we are faced with being that desperate. I've been down on my luck and out of money and had to scrimp and etc. but fortunately have never been hungry, jobless, etc. Having never faced that situation I would not be able to say exactly how I would react, but also rest assured I would never let any child or person in my care go hungry either!!! My father grew up during the Depression and, while his family was fortunate enough to own a comfortable farm where they all gathered and lived, he told me of how destitute some of the folks were in his part of Western Pennsylvania and yes, sometimes there were people who stole in order to eat. Let's all just hope that we all are never in those situations ourselves, and that when confronted with those truly in need we'll take the Christ-like attitude and be willing to give.
Christina |
| Kaylynn44 |
Posted - March 29 2004 : 9:41:33 PM
I don't think that any of us know exactly what we would do unless we were in that situation. Theft isn't right, but I do believe that it is more understandable when someone takes food instead of something like jewelry or electronics.
Anyway, WELCOME Marybo!!! We are glad that you are here!!!
Kay |
| Ithiliana |
Posted - March 29 2004 : 4:06:09 PM
ok, several things...
1. Welcome! We at MohicanLand are happy to have you!
2. That's a sad story, and I think that under such circomestances stealing is not immoral. but i still dont think it should be legalized.
3. i don't think there's a limit on how much you're allowed to write.
anywayz, hope you like it here ;) |
| marybo73 |
Posted - March 29 2004 : 3:33:11 PM
I had to reply this...(oh! if you haven't guessed already, I am new).
I was in a foreign country, had just seperated from my husband, had three young children, and no family or friends. I was in a shelter and with my luck, it was a Friday evening that I arrived and so I couldn't go to apply for food stamps or whatnot. I had no money in the account because my hubbie at the time would spend it on other things. So, I admit...I went and stole food for my children. I took enough for the whole weekend and on Monday I received money right away and was able to buy what I needed. I knew it was wrong, but sometimes when no one else is there to help, you have to do what you have to for your children. My oldest at the time was 4 years old and my youngest was barely a year old. It's a hard fact of life, sometimes knowing it is wrong and the punishment isn't enough to do what you have to do.
Sorry I posted so much! |
| Ithiliana |
Posted - March 28 2004 : 10:32:56 PM
ok, sgt munro. you definetly have a point. *goes to do research*
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| SgtMunro |
Posted - March 27 2004 : 10:21:15 PM
quote:
Anthony says: ...yr replies make NO real sense...jts just a robotic re-hash of the typical CLICHE...MONDANE.. Republicansm...
How is that Anthony? Can you for once in your life weave a coherant enough thought to generate debate? When you are ready to engage in debate (That includes bringing facts to the table) let me know. Responding to your unintellegent, childish and mundane rants are no longer entertaining.
quote:
Anthony also spouts: ......you STILL do not live n breathe in the real America .
I guess Pennsylvania (The birthplace of the Declaration of Independance and the U.S. Constitution) would not qualify as your twisted, Marxist version of America. Liberals in our country, like you, look at anywhere outside of New York, Washington D.C. and Los Angeles as 'Fly Over Country'. Just like how you belittle any dissent from the Social Marxist party line (Yeah, more of that 'Free Thinking' Liberalism), you also discount any of the working people from our nation's heartland. You are truly a liability to the real America, but unlike you, I would never try to silence you.
quote:
Anthony then asked: .... whats is gonna happen to yr blood presure when *OurManKerry*, YAY! gets in so easy and by a wide
That would figure that you would support a man that the enemies of our country also support. Nothing would please the terrorists, the Chinese, the North Koreans and a bunch of other people eager for our demise more, than if Kerry gets elected. That is precisely why I will vote for Bush, because the people that hate our country also love Kerry.
In closing, I see that not only has your writting style remained consistent, but also the content (or lack of).
Regards,
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| Anthony |
Posted - March 27 2004 : 3:17:55 PM
...yr replies make NO real sense...jts just a robotic re-hash of the typical CLICHE...MONDANE.. Republicansm......you STILL do not live n breathe in the real America . .... whats is gonna happen to yr blood presure when *OurManKerry*, YAY!  gets in so easy and by a wide |
| SgtMunro |
Posted - March 24 2004 : 11:04:33 PM
quote:
Ithiliana asks: what did you mean by "No poor person ever gave someone a job."?
I should have clarified my statement, what I meant was that no poor person ever employed other people, as in to make a payroll or pay out for employee benefits. As a police officer, I know that many poor people give me work every night.
quote:
Also asked: and how does redistribution of wealth foster underachievement?
That one is easy, if you do not work for something, how could you appreciate it or desire to work for more?
quote:
and look at sweden! they have socialism, right? and it works!
Yeah, they also have double digit unemplyoment, sky-high taxes and an non-existent GDP.
Now, I can appreciate how you feel, but the numbers do not lie.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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| Ithiliana |
Posted - March 24 2004 : 8:33:23 PM
lol, now that ive been corrected to death
what did you mean by "No poor person ever gave someone a job."?
and how does redistribution of wealth foster underachievement?
and look at sweden! they have socialism, right? and it works!
don't get me wrong... im not a radical who thinks socialism is the way to go. but if its that or a society in which 99% of the population is impoverished, i say give socialism a try. at least its better than making theft legal. |
| SgtMunro |
Posted - March 24 2004 : 02:14:53 AM
quote:
Ithiliana asks: instead of legalizing theft, what the should do is give government funds to the poor.
No Ithiliana, redistribution of wealth never works.
quote:
Ithiliana says: I mean, im sure there's an upper class that pockets all the money coming in from the oil trade. so there is money in the country, its just not spread around very well. so we fix the problem by taxing the rich like crazy and distributing money to the poor (can you say socialism?).
First off, it is the upper class that creates the wealth. No poor person ever gave someone a job. As I had said in the last blurb, redistribution of wealth never works, it just fosters under achievement. At least you did get the title correct, 'Socialism'.
quote:
Ithiliana says: the only flaw there is that the wealthy ppl make up the government, so there's no way they would ever agree to something like that.
Ithiliana, there are many flaws to your solution, but this is not one of them.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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| Ithiliana |
Posted - March 23 2004 : 7:22:58 PM
instead of legalizing theft, what the should do is give government funds to the poor. I mean, im sure there's an upper class that pockets all the money coming in from the oil trade. so there is money in the country, its just not spread around very well. so we fix the problem by taxing the rich like crazy and distributing money to the poor (can you say socialism?). the only flaw there is that the wealthy ppl make up the government, so there's no way they would ever agree to something like that.
as for stealing food if you're hungry...
i would.
id probably try hunting squirrels first, but if all else failed, i would.
and i would never, ever, ever go to a soup kitchen. i happen to volunteer at one out in one of the poorer regions of NJ. (we destribute clothes, too).
sorry, but i would starve before i would live on charity. |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - January 18 2004 : 10:12:57 AM
This is very interesting, and brought some very old thoughts of mine to the surface.
When my children were very young, I was recently separated/divorced, was working at a full-time job that paid $4.50 per hour, was paying a babysitter $50.00 per week, had no car, was receiving food stamps, and was receiving only $100.00 per month in child support (when he had the money available). In short... I was struggling to keep our heads above water.
Somehow I managed it so that we never went hungry or had to go to a soup kitchen. But I would lay in bed at night and think: if something horrible were to happen and my children were going hungry... would I be capable of stealing food for them? My answer to myself was Yes! Even with the risks involved and the need to override all of the "good" teachings I had received, if my children were hungry, I would steal.
Is theft of food wrong? Absolutely! Would I have done wrong? Absolutely! For my children. |
| richfed |
Posted - January 18 2004 : 08:06:07 AM
To answer the question - my opinion - the act is understandable, but still wrong. Maybe the judge will be lenient, or even throw the case out, but to decriminalize would be to encourage - even those who are not needy [but will will present themselves as if they are].
Similarly, it is understandable when a parent, or a spouse, or another person of a deeply close relation, has their child, or spouse, etc. molested, raped, murdered, and then seeks to inflict their own brand of justice on the perpetrator. It is very understandable, but is it right? |
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