| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| susquesus |
Posted - November 20 2003 : 1:31:16 PM
The two issues that political pollers seem to be asking us about lately in regards to President Bush are A: his handling of the domestic economy; and B: his foreign policy. I'm doing a 2 part poll to sample our community and see how our numbers compare to the polls quoted daily on the 24 hour news networks.
POLL A: DO YOU APPROVE OR DISAPPROVE OF THE WAY IN WHICH THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION HAS HANDLED THE ECONOMY? |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| SgtMunro |
Posted - December 12 2003 : 09:20:40 AM
Okay, Anthony, but can you give reasons (read: facts) concerning your opinion of the economic conditions of our country today?
Your Most Humble Servant,
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| Adele |
Posted - November 29 2003 : 11:42:16 AM
quote:
Originally posted by susquesus
Don't worry Adele, let's keep on truckin'. For all of the negativity and personal attacks that have occurred there has also been a lot of open, honest dialog. I love hearing from you and Ilse - the European perspective on things is a necessary part of an international debate forum. I'm sure many other posters, in addition to myself, would be upset if we lost your voices. I do know what you mean, though. I have avoided expressing my thoughts a number of times to avoid the inevitable bombastic responses that get lobbed at one who doesn't fit into some posters particular school of thought. If things get too out of line we can always use Rich's dreaded "Add to Ignore list" function on the member profile pages. It's not something that should be necessary, however, it is a tool that is at our disposal. Of course a healthy dose of maturity on the part of all posters would also do nicely. I would hate to see this forum go down the toilet, I'm still a newbie but I'm becoming quite attached.
Thanks to all participants, this has been a most enjoyable discussion to be a part of-most of the time.
Apologies for the delay in responding. Your post was much appreciated, and I hope that you too will continue to post here.
HM |
| susquesus |
Posted - November 22 2003 : 10:50:44 PM
Don't worry Adele, let's keep on truckin'. For all of the negativity and personal attacks that have occurred there has also been a lot of open, honest dialog. I love hearing from you and Ilse - the European perspective on things is a necessary part of an international debate forum. I'm sure many other posters, in addition to myself, would be upset if we lost your voices. I do know what you mean, though. I have avoided expressing my thoughts a number of times to avoid the inevitable bombastic responses that get lobbed at one who doesn't fit into some posters particular school of thought. If things get too out of line we can always use Rich's dreaded "Add to Ignore list" function on the member profile pages. It's not something that should be necessary, however, it is a tool that is at our disposal. Of course a healthy dose of maturity on the part of all posters would also do nicely. I would hate to see this forum go down the toilet, I'm still a newbie but I'm becoming quite attached.
Thanks to all participants, this has been a most enjoyable discussion to be a part of-most of the time. |
| Adele |
Posted - November 22 2003 : 8:29:51 PM
I am very, very tired.....
I was really excited about the creation of this forum. It had long been a desire of quite a few of us that we have a place where current affairs and other meaty issues could be discussed and debated in a mature and considerate fashion.
It just ain't happening, is it?
The people I have most enjoyed debating with have either thrown their hands up in despair and quit posting, or are in the process of doing so....and each day it is looking more and more like the smart thing to do.
I have learned SO much from some of the people in this forum, what a shame for it to end like this...
Adele |
| susquesus |
Posted - November 22 2003 : 01:35:05 AM
Agreed Doc, it does seem to get unneccesarily ugly and spiteful around here occasionally. I guess we need to learn to edit ourselves. I'm certainly guilty of firing off a response without thinking once in a while. If we can just get to the point where we can answer more thoughtfully than passionately we'll have a much broader, friendlier forum at our disposal.
"I argue very well. Ask any of my remaining friends. I can win an arguement on any topic, against any opponent. People know this, and steer clear of me at parties. Often, as a sign of their great respect, they don't even invite me."
-Dave Barry
"He who establishes his arguement by noise and command shows that his reason is weak."
-Michel de Montaigne |
| Doc M |
Posted - November 21 2003 : 1:18:47 PM
*sigh.* I REALLY REALLY don't want to step in here, as everyone knows
what I think about this topic. However, I must say the response to
Ilse's post was appallingly rude, and I would say so even if I
disagreed with her opinion...which I don't. But that's beside the
point. There's a difference between lively debate on an issue and
being treated like a card-carrying member of Al-Quaida because you
happen to have a different opinion. I got similar treatment when I
expressed my views on the war a few months ago, and I sure as hell
didn't appreciate it then...and I don't like to see it happen to
anybody else now. You wonder why you don't see Lainey posting on topics like this even though I know she has strong and deeply-held
personal beliefs? Crap like this is why!! Mohicanland should be a
place where everyone feels safe in posting without worrying about
getting into a never-ending bout of ugliness and ridicule. It's
childish and pointless.
Doc M
|
| SgtMunro |
Posted - November 21 2003 : 09:59:13 AM
quote:
Again.....mixed feelings and no up or down vote. I will say, the downturn is NOT Bush's fault. The recovery may not be his doing either. We were DUE for a slump after the boom of ten years
I agree with Bill on this, all to often the people either blame or praise the President for economic factors that are beyond his control. There are two things that President Bush did do, which had a positive impact. First, was his continued support of Federal Reserve Chair Allan Greenspan (as had the previous three presidents). Second was his tax cut, by allowing the working folks to keep more of THEIR money, it helped fuel the current recovery. With the extra cash, folks are able to remodel their homes, buy a new car, put away college tuition for their kids, etc. All of these activities contribute to the creation of more wealth, since 'wealth' is not finite. The concept of 'investing in government' never generates wealth, and in some cases cost the economy in lost production and growth. Just my thoughts on the topic.
Your Most Humble Servant,
|
| richfed |
Posted - November 21 2003 : 06:03:01 AM
Oil & vinegar! Ilse & Bill R!
Were you two married in a past life? 
PS - Agreed, CT ... wrong thread, somehow ... |
| CT•Ranger |
Posted - November 20 2003 : 11:36:30 PM
As for military aid offered from Europe for Afghanistan, it was offered. We were not alone after 9.11, many European countries were ready to go after Al Qaeda with us. But we turned them down, this was gonna be our fight, it was personal. (This wasn't portrayed in our mainline media, but I know I'm not the only one with this view.) And we went in alone and kicked butt. But several of these European countries were insulted by this. And when the issue of Iraq came up, and we asked for help, they turned us down. They told us we could do it alone. I think it's a complicated case of insulted egos, resentment, and fear of the big kid on the block. Just my opinion, I don't expect anyone to agree.
By the way, doesn't this discussion belong more in the foreign policy poll thread? |
| Ilse |
Posted - November 20 2003 : 7:58:25 PM
Sayonara |
| Bill R |
Posted - November 20 2003 : 7:34:29 PM
I do tend to go on at length when a few words would suffice.
The only myth I know of is the rumor of a Dutch Army. Everybody piling on now in a "coalition" wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with Europe's total dependence on Middle Eastern oil, and wanting to ensure a piece of that, right? It's the reason they stayed out of it when it counted, and it's the reason they want in on it NOW. No War in Afghanistan! No War in Iraq! Calm the Israelies down or sell them out! Whatever it takes! Don't pi*s off the folks that control the oil! (we need our oil). So sayeth Europe. |
| Bill R |
Posted - November 20 2003 : 6:57:28 PM
Convenient misunderstanding Ilse. PRIOR to the end of the Iraq war, only Britain and Australia were willing to join with us. Where were the rest of you?
Right after 9-11 where was the international aid to New York and the country that WE dole out so expansively and consistently whenever there is a similar catastrophe anywhere in the world in the form of hurricanes, other natural disasters, war, epidemic, or wholesale slaughter of the people of a country BY their own people?
You know as well as I do that I was talking about PRIOR to the end of the Gulf war. Sure, NOW you all want to jump in and reap the benefits of the oil, grab your share of the power and pie, and demand that - though you left us go it alone - NOW you have some sort of RIGHT to dictate within Iraq what goes on. Where are the Dutch troops Ilse? Euros were sent to aid the families of the dead from 9-11? Or to aid New York in the rebuilding? Many, many countries were represented by the dead and injured working in those two towers. Which of those countries sent troops to aid us in Afghanistan with the exception of our usual steadfast allies? Which country now stands with us in trying to wage a war against terrorism anywhere in the world.......in the form of military aid.....with the exception of Britain and Australia perhaps Canada?
And, I might ask, when was the last act of terrorism of ANY sort committed on Dutch soil, and by whom?
Your country's policy of criticising everybody else, thinking yourselves so morally superior, not sticking YOUR collective necks out in any way, or doing anything of ANY great moment in ANY way about solving the problems rampant in the world today seems to be working well for you in that regard. When you do more towards helping with those problems beyond criticising the efforts of everybody else and running your mouth, THEN you might have a basis upon which somebody might give a shit what you think.
Our "coalition" didn't exist until we'd won the war. (with the exception of those who fought with us and they were very few counted on one hand.....and castigated for doing so). Then, like Russia declaring war on Japan in the last few days....you jump in with your hands out wanting none of the risk or hard choices when it counted, but some of the fruits of that effort. And we should fall down on our knees and thank you? Bah! Those wonderful "coalition" folks are talking about NOT sending anybody now that it appears there might be bloodshed, and those that have are pulling out or talking about pulling out. When they discover bloodshed is still possible......watch them backpeddle.
Save me from your moral outrage. It's false and has no sound basis. |
| richfed |
Posted - November 20 2003 : 6:52:34 PM
Dear Ilse (the filthy symbol of corrupt mainland Europe that supposedly hates America) aka Bubba-ette!
Good point. Thankfully, we DO have allies!
|
| Ilse |
Posted - November 20 2003 : 6:26:18 PM
Ilse quote:
and nobody else except Britain was willing to step up to the plate WITH us when it was OUR turn to suffer.
I'm so sick and tired of this myth. You have allies enough if you care to recognize them. What is your so called "coalition" made of if not allies? Why do you not see Spanish, Italian, Polish, Scandinavian governments rallying to your cause, as they are doing? Australia fought in Iraq, but they are worthless anyway right?
19 Italian soldiers died in Iraq last week. Maybe they could't find the way to Rome. Can't be they were actually there supporting you? It happened about 50 miles from the place where 1500 Dutch soldiers are stationed. Now, they must have lost their way too. Possibly can't be there to help you either. You don't have allies after all, except England.....
Funny, you know, any call to anti_bush demonstrations is bound to be met with greater glee in England, as opposed to some mainland European countries like the Netherlands.
Ilse (the filthy symbol of corrupt mainland Europe that supposedly hates America)
|
| Bill R |
Posted - November 20 2003 : 2:32:41 PM
Again.....mixed feelings and no up or down vote. I will say, the downturn is NOT Bush's fault. The recovery may not be his doing either. We were DUE for a slump after the boom of ten years (much of it having been artificially inflated, reported, and upheld through misreporting, criminal conduct, etc). The bubble had to burst sometime, especially when those responsible for the artificiality of the "boom" were no longer able to conceal their actions. September 11th and the scandals made it worse than it should have been, and ALL of that was out of Bush's control.
The "war on terrorism" is costing us big time. How much of that is a necessary expense, or could have been done "on the cheap"? Unless you are willing to engage in assassinations abroad (which by executive order we cannot do) it can't be done cheaply, we WERE attacked and continue to be attacked, and nobody else except Britain was willing to step up to the plate WITH us when it was OUR turn to suffer.....after our willingness to bend over backwards financially, politically, and militarily for others oppressed, attacked, or invaded. All of that has a price. By design. The terrorists know their pricks and stabs.....no matter how we mourn each death......cannot win for them. What it CAN do, and is designed to do, is COST US AND BLEED OUR ECONOMY........they perceive Americans as more interested in money than in what is right or wrong....and believe that if they squeeze us financially we will not last long.
If we lose the will....they win. If we do what is needed - and have to do it alone - over the long haul they might also win.
Is it all necessary? Terrorism has become more a cancer on the civilized world every decade. It's time to end it, once and for all.
And that carries a price.....on the economy and on the American people.
You can't separate foreign policy from the economy anymore. The only way that could be done in the real world of today is to have NO foreign policy and retreat completely into an isolationist mentality. |
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