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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Adele |
Posted - June 01 2003 : 08:47:47 AM
Out of those three names....which do you recognise? Private Jessica Lynch, white, 19 years old from Virginia and a rescued POW? Private Shoshanna Johnson, black, 30 years old from Texas and a rescued POW? Private Lori Piestewa, Native American, 22 years old from Arizona, killed in action?
The hysteria surrounding 'the Jessica Lynch story' aggravates me for several reasons. Primarily, because she is a soldier, just like any other soldier, and her sex, colour or background should be irrelevant. It is not right to single out any soldier, unless their actions were above and beyond what can be expected of any other soldier. Women can never become an accepted part of any group if they are continually singled out JUST because they are a woman, regardless of whether the singling out is in a positive or negative way. If this were not bad enough, to see an individual picked out because she matches some ideal stereotypical heroine, makes my blood boil. There has been little news of Shoshanna Johnson, even less of Lori Piestewa, and practically no news of their male counterparts.
When I was searching for information on these women, I came across several posts criticising the US government for sending single mothers to Iraq (Johnson & Piestewa), or a petite youth (Lynch) - quite ridiculous! Any person that chooses to become a soldier, accepts the risks and demands of their profession, and have to meet rigorous standards to become a soldier. There have been over a dozen other 18 and 19 year olds who were killed in Iraq, but their age has not been a factor. Why? Because they are male. Every time a situation like this occurs, it sets back the work of thousands of women who have struggled for the right to be treated equally in the military. There are certain areas of the military that are closed to women, and will remain closed to women, as long as there exists this persistent need to single them out.
This post is, in no way, an attack on Private Lynch who I am sure has been through a horrifying ordeal. It is a criticism of the media (and public) need to idealise and glorify one individual above his/her colleagues for the worst of reasons.
HM |
| 22 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Adele |
Posted - June 11 2003 : 02:15:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Doc M
Yeah...what's that old proverb? Give a chimpanzee a typewriter
and he'll eventually type Hamlet??? *snort! snort!*
Doc M
LMAOOOOOOO!!! Oh it is just SO good to have the Doc back!!! |
| Doc M |
Posted - June 10 2003 : 2:22:30 PM
Yeah...what's that old proverb? Give a chimpanzee a typewriter
and he'll eventually type Hamlet??? *snort! snort!*
Doc M |
| richfed |
Posted - June 10 2003 : 1:39:37 PM
YAY!!!
I finally got the point!!! What point? Any point, it doesn't matter! Point is, I got a point!  Well, I'll be ... |
| Doc M |
Posted - June 10 2003 : 10:20:53 AM
Exactamundo, dear Adele. That is PRECISELY the point, Rich.
If more than a passing mention was given to the members of her
company who died, I missed it. They wanted a "damsel in
distess" who could be rescued, not dead soldiers. The whole
thing stinks, and what's worse is the Lynch family has to
be embarrassed by this. They had no part in this sideshow --
they just wanted their daughter back.
PS My ankles are fine, Sister Lainey, thanks to a judicious
appplication of athletic tape. Next time I dance around, I
shall confine myself to my low-heeled open-toed wedgies.
Doc M |
| Adele |
Posted - June 10 2003 : 06:43:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by richfed
OK ... question ...
Who can name any of the men involved in this? Talk about inequity & fashioning the news ...
... like Scott, another old, white man! :)
Ahhhh, but Rich....that is PRECISELY my point!!!
HM |
| richfed |
Posted - June 10 2003 : 05:46:56 AM
OK ... question ...
Who can name any of the men involved in this? Talk about inequity & fashioning the news ...
... like Scott, another old, white man! :) |
| Lainey |
Posted - June 10 2003 : 12:03:30 AM
quote:
"Won" may prove to be
a very slippery term, and I don't think the issues that
are being brought up can be dismissed as trivial nit-picking.
Ah, it's spring and the Doc's blood runs hot! I can't
dance around to avoid the punches very well in my high-
heeled maribou slippers, but bring it on, I say!
Doc M
Amen, sistah! Nothing was won - much was lost. There was no equitable coverage of these three women. Not even close. There were plans to make a movie about Jessica Lynch's "rescue." I'm sure the script writers are running into a snag, now that the storyline has changed so ... & the point remains that the media sold the american pie heroine/damsel in distress tale but the military concocted it.
How are your ankles, dancing charlatan? |
| Christina |
Posted - June 02 2003 : 6:04:43 PM
I'm not going to jump any further into this argument (although it's a great one and I tend to agree with you, Adele!) than to say that as a member of the fourth estate (that's the media, folks) I'm generally ashamed of the way the whole war was covered. I was just waiting for my esteemed colleagues to pick a poster child for the war, and it's become Jessica Lynch. Yes, I know who Shoshanna and Lori are, and it's because I got most of my news through the war from sources other than American media. I read The Guardian and dozens of other international papers on line, and listened to the BBC both on public TV and public radio. The whole Lynch controversy is just part of how, overall, we (the media) have done an overall poor, rah-rah job of covering things. I can't imagine the hell poor Jessica went through but then at the same time, I can't imagine the hell innumerable other military and civilian folks went through during the whole war. But Jessica has a pretty apple pie face and she helps sell copies of Newsweek.
I'm thanking God more than ever that I've been moved to the religion beat and am writing about matters of the spirit.
Just my two cents. I'm leaving quickly...
Christina |
| caitlin |
Posted - June 02 2003 : 11:56:30 AM
I too recognized all three names, but since I live in Arizona we heard more about Lori Piestewa. Primarily because there was a big controversy renaming Sqaw Peak. They renamed it Piestewa Peak. Now, I think that everyone agreed that the mountain needed to be renamed, but not everyone agreed that it should be named after her because she isn't even from this part of Arizona.
caitlin |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - June 01 2003 : 5:31:12 PM
"...it's not really all that bad, is it?"
What?!? Are you kidding?? It's terrifying! (Getting whipped? Been there... done that... don't want to do it again!) So... I would just like to respectfully put forth a couple more thoughts, if I may.
Chris, your point about the benefits of joining the military for a woman with children is well taken. In fact, I had thought of that after I made my post. The possibilities of gaining an education or training for a job are good for women (as well as men) in the military. I absolutely agree. However, the old-fashioned part of me still says that if a woman is a mother, her place is with her children. Now, I don't mean that she shouldn't work! Not at all! Many of us mothers must work these days.
You see, to both Chris and Adele, I am not talking only about the possibility of a female soldier being killed... I am also talking about the separations that must, at times, occur. While I believe that the military does try to keep families together (am I correct, military people?), there are times when they must be separated. And a war assignment is one of those times. Fathers are very, very important in a family unit, most definitely. And certainly the loss of a father is devastating to children.
However, the mother is traditionally the nurturer... the one who usually spends the most time caring for and raising the child. I am no psychologist, but I believe that it can be harmful to the children to be separated from their mothers for long periods of time. Grandparents are wonderful, but I just don't think they can take the place of a mother.
So, again, I feel that women do have a place in our military, and have the right to be there and be treated equally if doing equal duties. All I am saying is that if they have children, they should carefully consider whether joining the military is the best option.
Thanks!
(P.S. Welcome, Bill!) |
| Adele |
Posted - June 01 2003 : 4:07:30 PM
Wow!! Thank you EVERYONE for great responses. Just to answer a couple of points, the British press has had very little coverage of Private Lynch's story, other than the initial capture, and subsequent rescue. My source of information has actually been primarily US coverage courtesy of the WWW.
To Rich's point about women and men being designed for different roles, I absolutely agree, which is why I do NOT believe in dual standards for women in ANY job, military or otherwise. Either they can do the job to the standards required, or they cannot - however, the OPPORTUNITY to apply, and 'try-out' for any job should be available, including military combat roles. Women should not be excluded just because they are women.
With regards to WW's point, I don't really believe that a mother/wife can be considered inconsiderate to the needs of her family for joining the military anymore than a father/husband. Is the loss of a mother worse than a father? It is just a different kind of loss maybe....
Bill, I think you make some good points, but there were SOOOO many issues surrounding Somalia that I think it is not quite as clear cut as you make it seem - some points for another thread there maybe?!!
Just to finish...there were at least three posters who referred to posting in the Lion's Den with reservation perhaps? I would just like to say...thank you...its great to see you posting here...and you see, it's not really all that bad, is it?!! (Especially nice to see Doc Mary and Billy Gnome back in the saddle again!)
HM
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| Theresa |
Posted - June 01 2003 : 3:41:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by richfed
Yeah ... plus she's cute.
It's like the Laci Peterson case. The media looks for news that sells. "The Beautiful People" sell.
It's all a media event ...
I point you to a "thought" I posted...hmmm...Thursday I think it was:
For most folks, no news is good news; for the press, good news is not news.
Gloria Borger
...and speaking of Laci Peterson....man am I tired of hearing about that one. Now the capture of Eric Robert Rudolph has come to the forefront. Kudos to the young-new-on-the-job police officer who nabbed him. Birmingham is hoping he'll be tried here first.
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| Doc M |
Posted - June 01 2003 : 3:15:42 PM
Welcome, Chris! And no one gets whipped here unless they
pay Doc M to do it. (E-mail me privately if you want to
get put on my customer list.) And you are precisely
right -- most of the women who make the choice (and the
sacrifice) to join the military do so for precisely the
reasons you gave.
Doc M |
| Chris |
Posted - June 01 2003 : 3:04:53 PM
Egads! Not only am I reading in the Lions Den, I am posting!! I hope I don't get whipped for it.
I recognized all three names right away. In the beginning, all three got plenty of press here, not necessarily interviews, but stories about them. I haven't seen as much lately, but there was a story about Lori in the paper in the last week or so. Perhaps the British press is emphasizing Jessica's story because I believe they broke the news about the questionable circumstances of her rescue.
I also wanted to touch on the subject of women (mothers) in the military. I guess my opinion is that if they can do the job, and they want to do it, they should be allowed to do it.
WW, you commented that you wished mothers would consider the consequences of joining the military for their children. Perhaps that is just what they were considering. The military offers job security and great benefits. It might be the only way some mothers can see to provide those things for their children. All military personnel know the possibility of having to face combat, but I would think that most don't expect it. They are willing to take the risk for the benefits.
Chris (backing out of the Den) |
| Doc M |
Posted - June 01 2003 : 2:54:20 PM
Bill and Doc M on the same PLANET is even more astonishing,
wouldn't you say? Though that too may be open to debate!
Doc M |
| richfed |
Posted - June 01 2003 : 2:40:19 PM
WOW!!!
Bill R. & Doc M. in the same thread again ... thread, I said thread [you filthy-minded little ...] ... whodda thunk it?!? And, on opposite sides of the fence, too!
The more things change ... 
Good to see both of youse [as we say in Brooklyn!].
Ooops!!! Off topic ... |
| Doc M |
Posted - June 01 2003 : 2:14:40 PM
Love you too, Billy-Boy! *mmmmmWHAAAA!* (Big kissy for
you!) And believe you me, I'm no fan of the other
late, great Bill. I'm just commenting that it's
verrry interesting that the same right-wingers who were
screaming for Clinton's genitalia before, during and after
the very military actions you mention --how DARE this
draft-dodger get us invoved in these uncalled-for actions
harumphh harumphh harumphh -- are accepting without
question these latest actions. "Won" may prove to be
a very slippery term, and I don't think the issues that
are being brought up can be dismissed as trivial nit-picking.
Ah, it's spring and the Doc's blood runs hot! I can't
dance around to avoid the punches very well in my high-
heeled maribou slippers, but bring it on, I say!
Doc M |
| richfed |
Posted - June 01 2003 : 1:53:05 PM
Yeah ... plus she's cute.
It's like the Laci Peterson case. The media looks for news that sells. "The Beautiful People" sell.
It's all a media event ...
My opinion on women in the military -
I agree with you, Adele, that if women are in the military, than they should be treated equally. But, of course, they are not.
I should clarify that I am speaking of women in the military in combat roles - and in the U.S. military.
The issue, to me, is should women be in the military? I'm not sure, not being a military man, if supply line convoys are considered "front-lines," but I'd think not. How many women does one find on the front lines, anyway?
From the "sound-bite" video clips we see on the news, it would appear that women are everywhere for they magically appear in the center of every shot, if it is at all humanly possible. I saw a panel of embedded journalists in a lengthy round-table discussion on Memorial Day. One, a female embedded with, I believe, the 101st Airborne, stated she was the only woman there.
Why?
Why are women allowed in the military, but not placed - at least for the most part - on the front-lines? Why are woman allowed in the military but not required to sign-up with the selective service system as 18 year-old males are?
The obvious answer, to me anyway, is that even though society, as a whole, wants to do the politically correct thing, deep down it knows better. Men and women are different. God made us so - we are supposed to have different roles & functions. One sex is not better than the other, just different.
Without going into the details, that's why I believe they aren't there. And, why they shouldn't be. Jessica Lynch eases that unsettling ambiguity for us. |
| Seamus |
Posted - June 01 2003 : 1:15:48 PM
Well said, WW.
And, yes, Adele, the media does tend to interfere and slant things at times. However, they did honor Lori Piestewa's family's request for their privacy,......and should, as any decent human being would.... and Shoshanna's family had terrific coverage here. It is my opinion and observation that she, herself, is not shunning the press, but, rather, is not in an position to talk to them. It is also quite possible that she does not want to talk to them. I know that many soldiers who underwent what she did want no reminders. After all, two of her best friends and sister-soldiers have paid dearly, one the ultimate, and several of her male friends and comrades-in-arms from her Company died as well. Her own injuries have kept her hospitalized and untouchable. The fact that they are among the first female soldiers to suffer combat-incurred wounds/fatal wounds ever and the first captured in this war is 'newsworthy' in itself. However, there have been other female captives....several nurses in WWII by the Japanese, a couple soldiers in Desert Storm. They, also received massive press coverage, but were heavily insulated by the military. One US female officer, a Lt. Col., I think, has come forward on her own to tell her ugly story of torture and sexual abuse in Desert Storm. Male prisoners were also sexually abused and tortured in Desert Storm. I saw an interview with one a few months ago in which he told what happened.
War is ugly. Captives are NOT treated nicely all the time. It ain't a Sunday School picnic.....the absolute worst comes out in some people during such times and it is not always the enemy. I submit to you the incident prior to the War in which the soldier from the 101st threw grenades into the officers' tents, killing and wounding those inside.
Soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen...your country or mine..........male, female, black, white, red, yellow, or any combination thereof.....whether they see combat or not are all heroes in my eyes. They have a very tough job to do, and in my opinion do it quite well. |
| Bill R |
Posted - June 01 2003 : 1:02:41 PM
Yes.........I promised myself NEVER would I enter this forum. Or any other due to the rancor some still seem to hold toward me. However, I must disagree Doc M, though I like you greatly. Marketing tool? It wasn't Bush or the Administration making all the fuss. It was the media. And it DID happen on Clinton's watch...much worse in fact. Something similar and worse, at any rate. Anybody remember Somalia? You should. Blackhawk Down was a big movie. Clinton KNEW Al Queda was there. Clinton KNEW what we faced there, and refused to give them the real hardware they needed to do the job. Clinton also KNEW Al Queda was in other places that he left us vulnerable in. A disaster occurred. Not one, by the way, but many disasters in various locations. Where was the public outcry? Where was the media uproar? There wasnt any. Bush WINS a war, and everybody is scrambling trying to find some kind of fault, even if it is trivial. |
| Doc M |
Posted - June 01 2003 : 12:45:00 PM
I must respectfully, but strongly, disagree with you here,
WW. I didn't see the other two women on the covers of
Time and Newsweek. It was Jessica all the way. In fact,
there was barely a mention of the other members of her unit
who died. A week later in People the intense debate was over
what cute white blond would be cast in the movie role. Not
too many black or native american names came up, needless
to say. Around my area, the media was only focused on Jessica --
her hometown is one state over from where I live. Every
night on the news it was the same story, over and over.
Was she riddled with bullets? Did she single-handedly
slaughter scores of bloodthirsty Iraquis before being
captured? Again, not one mention of the other women or
men, or what horrors they might be going through.
After she came home, it was announced she was suffering
from "amnesia" and could not recall anything about her
capture, which I though was a bit odd. As I started to
read more about the controvery surrounding her rescue
operation, it began to make more sense to me. Last week
the local newshounds interviewed her dad once again about
her condition. I guess he got tired of the party line
because he told them flatly his daughter did NOT have
any memory loss, knew full well what had happened, but
didn't want to talk about it.
This is NOT in any way an attack on the young woman, who
I'm sure suffered a terrible ordeal. This is just to
voice my disgust at this administration's use of
war as a marketing tool. If this had all happened during
the Clinton administration, he would have been crucified
and impeached so fast our widdle heads would have whirled
'round and 'round...and I would have applauded. The fact
that only NOW is there even a little grumbling from the
Congress that gee...it appears that there might have
been a few teensie-weensie lies involved in this invasion
*gasp!* ...makes me sick.
Doc M
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| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - June 01 2003 : 11:03:17 AM
Well, I told myself that I would stay away from posting in this area... but here I am. I am not going to go all Patriotic here and start waving the flag. I promise!
Adele, you have made some very good points here, but I just have a few comments to make that may help to... er... "clarify" things for you.
Speaking for myself, actually all three of those names were instantly recognizable. And I think that they are to many of us here. I think that perhaps Shoshanna and Lori received much more media coverage here in the States, than they did in other parts of the world. Here, their faces and names are as well known as Jessica's.
I do agree with you about the media in general and the way they report and present stories. But I will say here that the family of Lori Piestewa was extremely private. Almost immediately after the ambush, when her whereabouts were not known, one of her brothers made a statement to the press that was hanging around her home. He very respectfully asked for complete privacy for Lori's family, and I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised when the media (apparently) honored his request. Even at her funeral, the media was asked to stay away and for the most part, they did.
Coverage on Shoshanna was about equal to, or maybe even less than, that of her fellow male POWs, upon their return. In fact, I have seen a couple of interviews with the two helicopter pilots... and none of her. (Of course, there may have been some that I missed.)
As far as Jessica... I have seen virtually nothing about her since she returned to the States. I don't even know how she is doing as far as her recovery. And as far as releasing the details of what happened to her, the only thing I have heard is that she has no memory of that at this time.
I think most Americans would agree with me when I say that regardless of what our personal opinions were on the war itself... we hold in very high regard, any soldier who was wounded, captured, or worse... killed. It doesn't matter what their age, color, rank or sex is/was. To us, they are all heroes.
Regarding women in the military and being sent to the war front... I have to say that I am very torn here. While I certainly uphold their right to be there, I do wish that all women who have children would seriously consider the possible consequences to their children before they make the decision to join.
Just my thoughts... and thanks for yours, Adele! |
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