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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
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 Posted - May 09 2004 : 8:28:31 PM
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Poll Question:
Did Benteen violate a legal order when when he refused to "Come Quick"
as ordered by General Custer?
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 09 2004 : 8:52:30 PM
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| A lawful order is binding and can not be recinded by a subordinant. Any superior, to the receiver, may countermand a given order, but then must accept full responsibility for doing so. At no time did Reno order Benteen to disregard the written order from Custer. He said, in words to this effect, "For God's sake Benteen, stop and give me help. I have lost a great deal of men and could not have done better." In fact, when Benteen displayed the note to Reno neither made any comment. Benteen and his batallion had not fired a shot thus far. There was no need for hid three companies of Calvery to await the pack train. While Benteen is alleged to have viewed "900" Indians in the Big Horn Valley(one has to wonder if he had the services of a computor)his military front was unencumbered. Custer's trail was clear and had been back trailed by Sgt. Kanipe and trumpeteer Martini. The fatal results would seem to justify his decision, in hindsight, but, when the decision was made he had no idea as to the status of Custer and his men. In addition, his heroic efforts that resulted in saving the remainder of the 7th. can not be regarding as a justification for the earlier act of military disobediance. |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - May 10 2004 : 07:37:02 AM
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Benteen made all what was possible to do for violating the received orders. He did'nt bring packs to Custer, he did'nt came quick, he stop to water the horses quietly and need the double time of Custer to run the same way the General ran previous. Much of the disaster can be the fault of Benteen, that also decided to stay with Reno, while they heard shooting somewhere up on the valley.
Lorenzo |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 10 2004 : 2:29:13 PM
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You'd both be better off getting the chronology straight, say from the time Martin gave Benteen the message, which was well after the watering. Why do you say Benteen watered "quietly?" In any case, how long does it take to water horses which had received none since 8PM the previous night at what had to have been a small, muddy bog? Are you suggesting that the horses should have/could have flown across wicked ground for six miles to LSH with the mules dropping ammo boxes along the way? In fact, Benteen took the trot after the message, which was both written (by Cooke)and Martin's oral description of the enemy flying.
Among many, many other things, bringing the packs in meaningful amount with him would have slowed Benteen down. Bringing the packs through hostiles ran the risk of losing the packs to them, etc.
Benteen, a trained and exceptional soldier by record, should be believed in his estimates of enemy numbers unless you have basis for questioning it other than wishful thinking. If so, what is it? It gets tiring hearing such serious accusations about Custer, Reno and Benteen, often by those who've never served, much less been in battle, much less done as well as the likes of those three soldiers. I don't think ANYONE is prepared to say that a totally united 7th cavalry would have done much better on such lousy ground as that chosen by those with Custer, and some would suggest it could have led to the loss of the regiment in toto. No way to know, of course.
The Seventh took a series of chances, often based on reason and upon experience, and on this day lost. Eh. Doesn't require treason or murder or derilection of duty or a scapegoat. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 10 2004 : 3:09:02 PM
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| Dark Cloud refers to a need to get "our chronolgy straight" and then proceeds to give an abrigded version of Benteen's movements, watering of thirsty mounts, bringing in the packs, etc. My question is this, what does that have to do with the original question of whether Benteen disobeyed a direct order? Nothing! Your reference to Benteen's exceptional military record is redundant as I am in complete accordance with his abilities to soldier. This, however, does not mean he had calibrated eyeballs that allowed him to discern 900 hundred bodies, hundred of yards away, in the midst of rising clouds of dust mingled with smoke coming from the warrior's burning of the foilage in the area. I do not mean to infer that Benteen's actions were responsible for the fatal outcome of this battle. I belive that their has been to much scape goating for an event that was the result of many factors appearing in an ever changing, fluid situation that culminated in defeat for one party. Neverthe less, Benteen was ordered to "Come qick -bring packs" he did neither. In conclusion, if Custer's order was a lawful one then Benteen failed to obey a lawful order. If Custer's order was not lawful please explain why. awaity your reply with eager anticipation. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
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Posted - May 10 2004 : 4:19:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
A lawful order is binding and can not be recinded by a subordinant. Any superior, to the receiver, may countermand a given order, but then must accept full responsibility for doing so. At no time did Reno order Benteen to disregard the written order from Custer.
[snip of verbiage]
I really don't see your point. No officer with any sense of responsibility would ride off and leave Reno's men in the position they were in. The Valley Fight alone was one of the bloodiest battles of all the Plains Wars in terms of U.S. casualties, and Reno's three companies were in a shambles when Benteen found them. Your quibbling about whether or not Reno technically ordered him to stop is about as useful as counting the grass on Custer Hill.
quote:
In addition, his heroic efforts that resulted in saving the remainder of the 7th. can not be regarding as a justification for the earlier act of military disobediance.
Subordinates are expected to use their brain and react to new situations and new developments, using their best judgement. Battles are not as rigidly fought as you appear to think them.
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
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Posted - May 10 2004 : 4:35:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
This, however, does not mean he had calibrated eyeballs that allowed him to discern 900 hundred bodies, hundred of yards away, in the midst of rising clouds of dust mingled with smoke coming from the warrior's burning of the foilage in the area.
What, exactly, is your point? That Benteen may have mis-estimated the number of Indians? Perhaps he did. So what? How is it relevant.
quote:
I do not mean to infer that Benteen's actions were responsible for the fatal outcome of this battle. I belive that their has been to much scape goating for an event that was the result of many factors appearing in an ever changing, fluid situation that culminated in defeat for one party. Neverthe less, Benteen was ordered to "Come qick -bring packs" he did neither. In conclusion, if Custer's order was a lawful one then Benteen failed to obey a lawful order.
Obviously, Reno's defeat occurred after the order was sent, and the situation was no longer the same. Nobody was going to be coming "quick" after that disaster. Exactly which sections of military law did Benteen violate, and when has anyone in a similar situation ever been court-martialed for "disobeying" orders? I doubt you're speaking from a firm grasp of military law.
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 10 2004 : 5:00:50 PM
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When 210 men are slaughtered upon the killing fields of Calhoun Hill, the Keogh sector, Custer Hill, and the South Skirmish line, I do not regard it as "quibbling" in attempting to ascertain if Benteen's immediate response to the "sounds of firing" may have saved their lives. I realize that there is no way of ascertaining what may have happened as Benteen did not respond. As the battle came to an end, I can not but wonder that a few men still alive, hoped and prayed that help would arrive before the final moment. I do not think that one of those troopers about to face death would have been sympathetic to the "shambles" that constituted Reno's three companies who still lived.
Regarding the condition of Reno's men, their condition was that of a defeated mob, tears coarsing down their beared faces as they huddled in shallow trenches and sobbed. The last remark is a fact, not an attempt to judge. I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME. Incapable of any military action, at that point, it was the absolute responsibility of the officers to restore order. Benteen could have assigned a number of officers under his command to do just that while he responded to his commander's position. As to your statement that, "the Valley Fight alone was one of the bloddiest battles of all Plains Wars in terms of U.S. casualties", Allow me to remind you of the following:
Fetterman massacer - 84 deaths
Custer's command 210 deaths
valley fight 63 deaths the vast majority of which were sustained in the "charge" to the bluffs, not in the valley.
As a retired police officer from a major Metropolitan Police agency I have, sadly, been involed in situations that led to the death of another. While this action can not be classified as a "Battle", it was a fire fight similar in that my responce to a fatal situation was based on training, immediacy of action,and ever changing circumstances that unsuspectedly popped up.
In addition, Fox's Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle devotes an entire chapter to combat stress, tactical deteriation, bunching, etc. As you can see sir, contrary to your unsolicited opinion of my view point on how battles are fought, I believe then to be far from rigid. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
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Posted - May 10 2004 : 5:48:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
When 210 men are slaughtered upon the killing fields of Calhoun Hill, the Keogh sector, Custer Hill, and the South Skirmish line, I do not regard it as "quibbling" in attempting to ascertain if Benteen's immediate response to the "sounds of firing" may have saved their lives.
No, you're quibbling over whether Reno's "For God's sake, Benteen, stop and help" was a direct order. If Benteen needed an absolute order that explicitly countermanded the Cooke note for him to stop and put those men back together, then THAT is the real scandal.
quote:
I realize that there is no way of ascertaining what may have happened as Benteen did not respond. As the battle came to an end, I can not but wonder that a few men still alive, hoped and prayed that help would arrive before the final moment. I do not think that one of those troopers about to face death would have been sympathetic to the "shambles" that constituted Reno's three companies who still lived.
Nor were Reno's men sympathetic to Custer when they were dying and crying out for water on the 26th. It's irrelevant. The situation with Reno's men was a real and immediate problem, which couldn't be bucked off.
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Regarding the condition of Reno's men, their condition was that of a defeated mob, tears coarsing down their beared faces as they huddled in shallow trenches and sobbed. The last remark is a fact, not an attempt to judge. I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME. Incapable of any military action, at that point, it was the absolute responsibility of the officers to restore order. Benteen could have assigned a number of officers under his command to do just that while he responded to his commander's position.
With what, exactly? How many troops should he have left with Reno in order to protect *him* against Indian attack? It was probably only Benteen's arrival which prevented the Indians from finishing off what they started in the valley.
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As to your statement that, "the Valley Fight alone was one of the bloddiest battles of all Plains Wars in terms of U.S. casualties", Allow me to remind you of the following:
Fetterman massacer - 84 deaths
Custer's command 210 deaths
valley fight 63 deaths the vast majority of which were sustained in the "charge" to the bluffs, not in the valley.
It IS one of the bloodiest battles of all the Plains Wars in terms of U.S. casualties.
Platte Bridge - 6 deaths
Red Buttes - 22 deaths
Crazy Woman Creek - 2 deaths
Pond Creek Station - 6 deaths
Kidder Massacre - 12 deaths
Hayfield Fight - 2 deaths
Wagon Box Fight - 3 deaths
Beecher Island - 6 deaths
Wa****a - 21 deaths
Reynolds' Fight - 4 deaths
Rosebud - 10 deaths
Slim Buttes - 3 deaths
Wolf Mountain - 3 deaths
Lame Deer - 4 deaths
White Bird Canyon - 34 deaths
Rains Massacre - 13 deaths
Clearwater - 17 deaths
Big Hole - 23 deaths
Canyon Creek - 3 deaths
Bear Paw - 24 deaths
(With thanks to Greg Michno)
I'm shocked you would even try to argue this. Most of the Indian Wars were generally like what we have going on right now in Iraq and Afghanistan: little skirmishes, a handful of casualties in each event; if 10 or more men died, it was usually because a small group of soldiers got ambushed.
Furthermore, your own casualty figures are wrong: only about 40 men were killed in the Valley Fight, and your quibbling over whether the men killed in the run to the bluffs were really killed in the Valley Fight is absurdly anal. The Valley Fight is just the term historians have chosen to describe Reno's entire action against the village, and its immediate aftermath.
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As a retired police officer from a major Metropolitan Police agency I have, sadly, been involed in situations that led to the death of another. While this action can not be classified as a "Battle", it was a fire fight similar in that my responce to a fatal situation was based on training, immediacy of action,and ever changing circumstances that unsuspectedly popped up.
In addition, Fox's Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle devotes an entire chapter to combat stress, tactical deteriation, bunching, etc. As you can see sir, contrary to your unsolicited opinion of my view point on how battles are fought, I believe then to be far from rigid.
I'm judging you from your arguments, not your life experience, and your contention that Benteen did something illegal in helping Reno can only be described as tin soldierly rigid, assuming your interpretation of military law and how they apply to battles is even correct (which I doubt).
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 10 2004 : 7:16:35 PM
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To R. larsen, my point is this: Benteen made an impossible claim regarding the number of warriors in the valley below. This is not surprising when reads an account od his testimony at the Reno Inquiry. He statements were so patently and, obviously, false that many a scolar come to his/or her wit's end trying to understand what he hoped to accomplish. Only by understanding that mis-information, biased perceptions, personal gains, fear of retribution, and a host of other factors were involved in the many statements proffered by witnesses, can we hope to discern the kernels of truth laying in a stream of subterfuge.
Benteen failed to render aid to 10 to 12 soldiers that HE obsevred being slaughtered in the valley. This is according to his own testimony. Hwhen his actions became questioned and scrutinized later, by public opinion, he fell upon his past military experience of watching battallions of troopers on PARADE MARCH, w |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 10 2004 : 7:24:36 PM
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Well, YES, Mr. Wiggs, I DID offer an abridged version. So what? Abridged is not the same as incorrect, which your own abridged version was.
You suggest Benteen got the order to hurry and then broke out the hammock, planted an umbrella, and took a Jimmy Buffett break at the waterhole while others were heroically dying. Others have made a big deal about this twenty minute watering. If only five horses could water at once after eighteen hours without ANY, that's pretty good after many others had filthied it up. We have no clue how big it was - or exactly where it was - but the ground suggests not big at all.
Benteen was an experienced officer familiar with Indian fighting and dust and instructed in how to estimate enemy numbers. Your basis for suggesting he was incorrect is what, now?
I remain in awe at the number of cliches ('killing fields' rather leaps out, given that the syllogism is inaccurate) that can be wedged into these posts, perhaps a characteristic of those awed in turn by Fox. I'm unsure what the relevance is of the topic of an 'entire chapter' written by Fox. He doesn't know what happened any more than you or I do. All he knows is that detritus manufactured before the battle was found on the field. When fired, by who, at what, are still mysteries. The field is about as virginal as Heidi Fleiss and less likely to preserve accurate memory. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 10 2004 : 8:01:23 PM
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Forgive me for the break, my computor jumped off line before I could finisn. To continue: Watching officers on parade is, of course, quite different than a combat situation. He did make this statement for a very human reason, to not be chastised for a seemingly faiure to perform a rescue. It very well may have been impossible for him to do so, therefore the greater the numbers of the enemy, the more palable the acceptance by those who would judge him.
Sorry to correct you, but there were no orders that countermanded Cooke,s note. You see, Cooke's note was the order. As the General's adjunct he possessed the authority to issue command's in his name. Perhaps you are confusing Cooke's directive with the earlier note given to sgt. Kanipe by Capt. Tom Custer for the commander of the pact train, and "Benteen if you see him." Kanipe's order was for the commander of the pack train to speed up the pack mules and to leave behind boxes that may fall loose.
Cooke's note was given to Sgt. Martini sometime later whilst in Cedar Coulee and after the General realized that the entire village was before him and not strung out as was the situation at the Wa****a. In fact both oders complimented each other in that they essentially said the same thing, hurry up.
Men dying is never irrelevant. While Reno's men were fortunant enough to survive and cry out for water on the 26th., their companions lay bloated, and quite dead on the battle field. What is "irrelevent", to me, is your insistance in declaring the death of men as irrelevant. Does that hold true for those men in Iraq? Benteen's arrival did not "probably" prevent Reno's conclave from being finished off. Fortunately for Reno, Custer was sighted on Nye-Cartwright ridge and the embolden warriors responed to the new threat. This of course left Reno's troops quite safe for an hour or so. You may not be aware of this, but moments after retreating to Reno's bluff, he ventured down to the river to look for his fallen comrade, Lt. Hodgson. Were, you may ask, were the nine hundred Indians when he did do? In response to your last statement, "When has anyone in a similar situation ever been court-martialed for 'disobeying' orders'? I must confess you got me there. As their has been only one Benteen, one Custer, one Reno, and one battle of the Little Big Horn, I can not think of a similar situation. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 10 2004 : 9:00:46 PM
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I have the impression you've never been to the field, Mr. Wiggs, because your complaint about Benteen makes no sense. If you have, please describe the method by which Benteen could have affected the outcome of the soldiers being killed by the Indians below Reno Hill. And again, how far was Benteen from these people and across what ground?
Benteen may also have made the statement about numbers because they were true. What is your evidence he lied? And why would he keep the orders from Cooke through the years, showing it around, if he was covering up?
I don't know who you're correcting, but nobody said Cooke's order was countermanded. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 10 2004 : 9:51:47 PM
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Dark Cloud, i respectively ask your pardon for an unintentional mistake on my part. You did not say that Cooke's order was countermanded. That statement was a part of Anonymous Pester 8169 who was responding to the poll also. I quote, "If Benteen needed an assolute order that explicitly countermanded the Cooke note., etc" I certainly appologize for the confusion i caused.
I have been very fortunate to have visit the field on two occassions, although I wish it were more. Each time I go, I am spell bound by the enviroment that lays before me. I sometimes feel that their is something unexplicable that courses through my body when I'm there. I am currently planning a third trip under the auspices of Jim Court, an ex-superintentant of the battlefield, hopefully this year.
Regarding your question about the warriors killing troopers who were left behind by Renos's haste to leave (No trumpets were sounded thus a few unfortunates did not hear the verbal command over the shooting and yelps of the Indians) a Calvary charge of three companies would have sliced through the Indians in the Valley like a knife through butter. I realize that this statement will infuriate a few members, something that I do not wish to do. However, the reality is that historically, no band of Indian warriors have ever stood up to a mounted charge of Calvery. That is not to say that after falling back they would not have regrouped and counter attacked. This would have been a definite possibility. However, the initial assault would have forced them to disperse, thus freeing some of the soldiers who were caught afoot. Again, I am not attempting to blame Benteen for any action he chose to follow. I have stated this repeatedly. However, this membership can not hope to fully understand what transpired on those wind swept, Montana Hills so long ago unless we face all issues, good or bad, all possibilities, welcomed or not. Reno was not forced from the timber because of an onslaught of a thousand screeming warriors. His retreat to the timber was facilitated by the death of a single soldier. He charged the bluffs (some same fled towards the bluffs) when a small contingency of warriors infiltrated his rear from the east side of the timber. When he was spewed with the brain matter of Custer's favorite scout, Bloody Knife, he fell apart.
Lastly, when Benteen arrived at Reno Bluff at approximately 4:10 P.M., Custer, Keogh, and the others were on the offensive. No tragedy had yet occurred.
It is possible that Benteen's arrival may have changed the outcome of this battle. The troopers may still not have succeeded in conquering the recaltrant Indians, but perhaps, just perhaps, the combined forces may have enabled the majority of the command to escape. It is possibilities of this nature that I am trying to explore. Last, and certainly not least, from Reno's bluff to Custer Hill was approximately 4 miles. From Weir's Point to Custer Hill was three miles. From Weir's Point Calhoun Hill was approximately two miles. A Calvaery trot at 7.6 miles per hour would have placed Benteen's batallion at Custer' disposal in a matter of minutes. Instead they sat on Reno's bluff for an hour and a half, denying that they even heard gun shots coming from Custer's command. Perhaps we may get the opportunity to explore the battle field together, I bet that would be interesting.
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 11 2004 : 09:17:33 AM
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The order to Benteen was "come on, be quick,bring pacs".Now like everything Custer did that day it was confusing.
Could the order be interpreted as meaning "Rejoin the command"but what element of it?When the order was sent Custer was preparing to attack,he was not as yet in dire straits and needing rescue.The messenger did inform Benteen that the Indians were "skedaddling".So Benteen has this order to come quick and he has information that Custer has things well in hand and in front of him is the wreckage of Reno's battalion.What is he going to do?
I think he acted correctly.
Regards |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 11 2004 : 12:09:43 PM
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Your faith in Fox and others is touching, Mr. Wiggs, but neither you nor they have any idea if Custer was on the offensive or being driven at 4:10. Or even alive.
Your statement about Benteen's three companies acting as a knife through butter won't infuriate anyone, just amuse. The problem is, how would Benteen get down to the Indians? Traverse the very steep incline slowly under fire from the Sioux? Go back a mile or more to where a crossing could be made? What? In any case, going to rescue those men could not have been accomplished without killing more of your own.
What is your source for "a small contingency of warriors" infiltrated the timber? Wasn't his concern that he was being surrounded by increasing numbers and would be unable to retreat when they ran out of ammo? It surely would be mine or any competent officer's.
If the land was perfectly flat, a movement of 7.6 mph (hail, beloved manuals of contradictory, inapplicable, and useless info) and there were no enemy between Custer and Reno, Benteen could have gotten to Custer in, as you say, minutes. Unfortunately, it would be over thirty of them. Given that the terrain forbids a direct path, it would be closer to twice that. Plus being shot out of the saddle. More to the point, what would BE the point? Anyone looking at the eastern ground would NOT bring cavalry there willingly to fight. If there's a mystery, it's not that Benteen didn't order his men into bad ground, but that someone in Custer's command did. Who knows who. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 11 2004 : 1:03:01 PM
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| Your persistent attempts of towards defammation towards my research methods and willingness to share that information with those who is juvenile and not worthy of an adult. How old are you? Have you visiited the field, as you so arrogantly asked of me. Benteen's sighting of the pursuing warriors did not occur from the towering, Reno's bluffs. It occurred prior to climbing the steep ridge that culminated upon the bluff. In his own testimony, Benteen reached a fork in the trail (not cliff) wherein he wrote, "I caught myself on the horns of a delimma" not knowing whethew to turn left or right. Left when have taken him into the valley. Then two things occurred, one the sighting of several Ree scout pointing to the right(the bluffs)and the tail of Reno's command assending the bluff. Contrary to your ability to read my mind and know what resource materials I've read, let me assure you that true interested parties to this battle will gather and read as many resources as possible. I have been doing so for 25 years. Last , but certainly not least, is it possible to stick to the issues and not reduce this exchange of information into a petty squabble? Does anyone else out there agree? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 11 2004 : 3:33:01 PM
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Well then, Mr. Wiggs, how far away was Benteen from the soldiers he saw being slaughtered, how soon could he have arrived to prevent their deaths? If you charge him with failing to go to their assistance, as you did above, the assumption must be that such a mission could have been accomplished. It couldn't, of course, and you owe Benteen's shade an apology.
And again, your evidence for Benteen's count of the enemy being wrong and too high is what?
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 11 2004 : 6:31:30 PM
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Bob Bostwick |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 11 2004 : 6:46:28 PM
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Custer may very well have been dead by the time the message reached Benteen and would almost certainly have been dead, along with the rest of his column, by the time Benteen could have arrived in relief.
So, consider this: Benteen dutifully bypasses Reno and his seige, gallops another three miles, or so, to Last Stand Hill, is quickly dispatched, along with his entire column. Reno is left without the combat support Benteen had provided and, subsequently, cannot hold out against the seige. Therefore, Reno and his command are also wiped out to the last man.
Custer divided his command into three columns, none of which was even remotely capable of a military victory at that place, against those kinds of numbers. Remember, the Cheyenne, Sioux and Arikara are also considered to have been the finest light cavalry in the world. They were better armed, overwhelming in numbers and extremely pissed off. They also had better leadership.
Gone through the village like butter? They could have gone through the village like, say, Fetterman.
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Bob Bostwick |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 11 2004 : 8:40:11 PM
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Benteen's shade, having departed from its abode of humanity, has been transformed to a higher plane of existence, lo these many years. No longer burdened with the plights and woes of this earth, it certainly does not need an apology from me. Your insistance in continuing to mis-quote me, however, is fascinating. I did not charge Benteen with failure to render aid to the troopers left behind on the valley floor. The poll question for your edification was, "Did Benteen fail to obey a lawful order in failing to respond to Custer's position as ordered." Regarding the poor misfortunants left behind by Reno to die a horrible death, I simply gave my opinion on what MAY have happened should Benteen taken that option. All military engagements consist of a series of options that are continuously changing. A well trained commander selects the most appropiate options that most likely will ensure success for his command. I will not stand upon the shoulders of the stalwart Captain, in the heat of combat, and judge him. Obviously he did not agree with me and that's O.K. My position is clear and simple, you need not feed your biased opinions into it, charging the warriors on the valley floor was an OPTION.
I will not take the time to supply you with an Index of references that will explain how a force of 500 or more warriors, ahorse, turned the left flank of the Reno line from Shoulder Blade Coulee, while a much snaller contingency, thirty or less, moved afoot to turn Reno's right flank through the timber. In fact a volley blast from these warriors resulted in the death of Bloody knife, his brains splattering upon Reno. Please read the following sources which, hopefully, may enlighten you.:
The Custer Myth - Colonel W.A. Graham
The Story of the Little Big Horn - W.A. Graham
Little Big Horn - Robert Nightengale
Little Big Horn Remembered - Herman J. Viola
Lakota Noon - Gregory Michno
Custer and Company Walter Camps Notes on the Custer Fight
Hokahey! Agood Day to Die - Hardorff
As an after thought I left out Archaeology, History , and Custer's Last battle by Fox. Quote:"Your faith in Fox and others is touching Mr. Wiggs, but neither you nor they have any idea if Custer was on the offensive or being driven at 4:10 oe even alive." This blatantly sarcastic responce exemplfies your approach to every statement I have proffered. Contrary to your infinite wisdom, or rather perceived wisdom, it is VERY possible to know what was going on at 4:10. Do your homework and you will ascertain that several impressive studies (Gray's time motion studies for one) have revealed pertinent information long, lost to us.
Undoubtedly you are unaware of a significant incident that occurred on the fringes of Weir's Point as the warriors sallied forward towards the Reno conclave. Every command, with one valiant exception, bolted and fled back to the bluffs hotly pursued by the emboldened warriors. Have you not heard, never run from an Indian. Lt. Godfrey, God Bless him, dismounted his men, placed them in skirmish while allowing Weir and French through the line. Godfrey, then ordered a volley, kept his company in skirmish order rather than letting them bunch together, and drove the warriors BACK. That's correct, the one and only time the troopers stood fast(Godfrey's company) the warriors Retreated!!!
That Sir, despite your inordinate refusal to keep an open mind in an open forum is the point I have been trying to make. To take the simplistic stance' "We weren't there so I don't know what happen." is the antithesis of research based on careful study of the physical evidence and particpant statements regarding this battle. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on May 11 2004 8:51:50 PM |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 11 2004 : 8:54:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
To R. larsen, my point is this: Benteen made an impossible claim regarding the number of warriors in the valley below.
Impossible how, Wiggs? Benteen may very well have been wrong, but there's nothing "impossible" in his belief that 900 warriors were in the valley.
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Benteen failed to render aid to 10 to 12 soldiers that HE obsevred being slaughtered in the valley. This is according to his own testimony.
What exactly was he in a position to do?
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Hwhen his actions became questioned and scrutinized later, by public opinion, he fell upon his past military experience of watching battallions of troopers on PARADE MARCH, w
I'm not following you. What are your references?
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 11 2004 : 9:25:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Forgive me for the break, my computor jumped off line before I could finisn. To continue: Watching officers on parade is, of course, quite different than a combat situation. He did make this statement for a very human reason, to not be chastised for a seemingly faiure to perform a rescue.
What statement?
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Sorry to correct you, but there were no orders that countermanded Cooke,s note.
Just which statement are you correcting?
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You see, Cooke's note was the order. As the General's adjunct he possessed the authority to issue command's in his name. Perhaps you are confusing Cooke's directive with the earlier note given to sgt. Kanipe by Capt. Tom Custer for the commander of the pact train, and "Benteen if you see him."
I don't think I'm the one who's confused. Kanipe never carried a note --- his message was verbal. Cooke's order, written before Reno was repulsed, got overtaken by events. This is battle: it happens.
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Men dying is never irrelevant.
It's irrelevant to your legal nitpicking.
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While Reno's men were fortunant enough to survive and cry out for water on the 26th., their companions lay bloated, and quite dead on the battle field. What is "irrelevent", to me, is your insistance in declaring the death of men as irrelevant. Does that hold true for those men in Iraq?
The deaths of those men in Iraq are indeed irrelevant to the question of whether Benteen did anything illegal in helping Reno. Defend your arguments on their own merits --- righteously hugging yourself to the dead does not conceal your arguments' holes.
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Benteen's arrival did not "probably" prevent Reno's conclave from being finished off. Fortunately for Reno, Custer was sighted on Nye-Cartwright ridge and the embolden warriors responed to the new threat. This of course left Reno's troops quite safe for an hour or so.
And you know this how?
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You may not be aware of this, but moments after retreating to Reno's bluff, he ventured down to the river to look for his fallen comrade, Lt. Hodgson. Were, you may ask, were the nine hundred Indians when he did do?
Yes, I am aware of it. Your point is?
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In response to your last statement, "When has anyone in a similar situation ever been court-martialed for 'disobeying' orders'? I must confess you got me there. As their has been only one Benteen, one Custer, one Reno, and one battle of the Little Big Horn, I can not think of a similar situation.
Your concession is appreciated. Now what sections of military law did he violate?
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 11 2004 : 10:26:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Benteen's shade, having departed from its abode of humanity, has been transformed to a higher plane of existence, lo these many years.
I'd have just said "Benteen's dead".
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Your insistance in continuing to mis-quote me, however, is fascinating. I did not charge Benteen with failure to render aid to the troopers left behind on the valley floor.
"Benteen failed to render aid to 10 to 12 soldiers that HE obsevred being slaughtered in the valley."
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Contrary to your infinite wisdom, or rather perceived wisdom, it is VERY possible to know what was going on at 4:10. Do your homework and you will ascertain that several impressive studies (Gray's time motion studies for one) have revealed pertinent information long, lost to us.
I'm not sure they "revealed" anything. At best, they are highly plausible reconstructions of what happened; all of them operate on certain assumptions, and ignore some contrary data. Those are the leaps one takes.
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Undoubtedly you are unaware of a significant incident that occurred on the fringes of Weir's Point as the warriors sallied forward towards the Reno conclave. Every command, with one valiant exception, bolted and fled back to the bluffs hotly pursued by the emboldened warriors. Have you not heard, never run from an Indian. Lt. Godfrey, God Bless him, dismounted his men, placed them in skirmish while allowing Weir and French through the line. Godfrey, then ordered a volley, kept his company in skirmish order rather than letting them bunch together, and drove the warriors BACK. That's correct, the one and only time the troopers stood fast(Godfrey's company) the warriors Retreated!!!
After which Godfrey's men quickly hightailed it back to Reno Hill. Same thing happened when Benteen and Reno made their separate charges on Reno Hill on the 26th. The trouble with driving warriors back is that they often don't stay away.
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That Sir, despite your inordinate refusal to keep an open mind in an open forum is the point I have been trying to make. To take the simplistic stance' "We weren't there so I don't know what happen." is the antithesis of research based on careful study of the physical evidence and particpant statements regarding this battle.
Wrong. It's the start of all honest research. Nobody can ever "know" what happened at the battle; people who pretend they do generally have an agenda which they've staked their egos out on proving (Benteen broke the law!). The fact is, we "know" very little about the battle. All we have to rely on is people's memories and some garbage in the dirt. People lie, forget things, and misremember, and the artifact field has been picked over and disturbed and corrupted for over a hundred years. We can say what probably happened in many cases, but the nature of the evidence does not usually allow us to go much further than that.
R. Larsen
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 12 2004 : 3:38:44 PM
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While I don't think Benteen set any land speed records in getting back to where things were "happening", I don't think he violated a "lawful order" (or rather, a lawful message).
For that to occur he would have had to have either ignored the summons in the first place or, when he met up with Reno and found those men fit and ready to rumble, decided to stay put. But what he found was a miserable set of mostly beaten men more or less unfit for offensive operations of any kind. So he elected to stay and help with he defense. Some say that this saved him and Reno and doomed Custer--but I reckon Custer was probably already doomed, and had Benteen ridden in all haste to Custer, by the time he arrived his men would have probably been in no real condition to help Custer or even themselves.
I should add that I'm one who thinks Benteen should never been sent off (at the time he was sent) in the first place. Then there would have been no need for a "Come Quick" note. Benteen would have been with Reno, together perhaps actually "driving" the village and giving Custer the time he evidently needed to figure out how he was going to give Reno that promised support.
Oh--what might have been!!!!
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 12 2004 : 9:43:05 PM
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I have truly enjoyed the varied responses I have received, thus far, regarding my poll question. As I stated earlier, there are three topics that will stir the wrath of many; politics, religion, and the Battle of the Little Big Horn. No other subject matter will raise the roof quite like these three topics. Contrary to what some of the resondents obviously believe, my intent was not to hold Major Benteen responsible for the fatal outcome of this battle. Mistakes were made by many (more prominantly the U.S. government) to include Custer. After carefully reviewing the reactions I have received from this very, commendable forum, I have come to a personal conclusion. In the many decades since this epic battle occurred, the irate fickle finger of fate has pointed its haughty finger towards several of the main characters in this drama. The heavy mantle of responsibility has shifted througout the years. Previously Reno was a drunk, Benteen hated Custer, Moylan wept on the bluffs, Weir was a drunken sot, Godfrey was a pompous ass, etc. Finally, in the twentieth century, the truth has risen above the muck and mire of mis-information, false accusations, and biased perspectives. Custer, the graduate of the prestigious West Point, Major General of the Civil War, devoted husband, and idol for his admiring siblings was actually an arrogant buffoon who callously sacrificed his men (to include his brothers and nephew) to achieve glory. What a tidy and neat package we are left with. No need to delve into the messy circumstances of what occurred, just blame the scapegoat who, by the way died and could not defend himself, and praise the survivors whose every action was correct and acceptable.
Why do I make such a controversial statment? The mere inference, by me, that Benteen may have done something not kosher has inflamed the ire of some who have gone to ridiculous lengths to assolve the Major from any responsibility about anything that occurred. Benteen was a human being. He strongly disliked Custer for his failure to commendate him at the battle of the Wa****a for actions that were heroic and should have been mentioned. He held Custer responsible for the death of Major Elliot and his company during that battle. He honestly believed that Custer was jealous of his ability to lead, thus sending him on a wild goose chase (left oblique) on a scout away from the battleof the Little Big Horn.
Is it not reasonable to assume that While Custer and his command were being wiped out, Benteen truly believed that they with five companies were in no more dire straits than he and Remo? Before you answer that question, he admitted as much did by his own testimony. It was only, and I repeat, only after the battle when the neccessity of a scapegoat be located that his actions, and the actions of others, began to be questioned. Is it not ironic that Boston Custer, a youth, departed from the pack train, passed Benteen's command at the morass, and united with the General at Cedar Coulee by his lonesome. Yet, approximately an hour later, Benteen had not arrived. Finally, my friends, in the human equasion, do not disregard any possibility. Options, possibilites, what ifs is what this discussion should be about. Sadly, as someone earlier accussed me of, it may be about EGO's after all. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on May 12 2004 10:08:10 PM |
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Benteen's order
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