Re: Over here ... Over there..... or Utopia?

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: : : : One month has passed. It seems an eternity.

: : : : Over here, in the USA, we were traumatized. The resulting bonding & patriotism has been a good, and healing, thing. We now wage war ... and we will win ... I feel we'll win decisively. That too will be a good, and healing, thing. The words mean what they say.

: : : : I am not naive enough to believe the rest of the world will all view it as such.  I know different parts of the world will view things from different points of view. Understandable. I do believe most will, though, view it as a good thing. Certainly, I hope so.

: : : : As I said the other day, today I am proud of who we are. Very proud.

: : : : Stay cool, folks - all opinions are welcome, but be cool.

: : : Rich,

: : : You're my friend. I will try to explain my position as I see it. I will not address your remarks about America's trauma, because to me that is clear and undisputed. But....

: : : The exchange you are referring to was never about opinions, was not about substance, nor was it meant to be. I made a quip at a post that was "stretching it a bit" as Adele so excellently put it. For the record, the person it was addressed to, responded in great style. Unlike somebody else, who found it necessary to jump me, accuse me of calling American patriotism into question and start to lecture and talk down to me like I am some ignorant 5-year old.

: : : I invite you to read that thread again, and I ask you:
: : : Do I call American patriotism into question? I don't.
: : : Do I voice an opinion? I don't.
: : : Have I voiced any opinions lately? No, because I am scared sh*tless of the kind of ruckus that it may cause on this board. Ironic than, isn't it, that when I DON'T voice an opinion at all, hell breaks loose. It should give you something to think about on the atmosphere on the board.

: : : There seems to be a gentleman who had to bite his tongue last night. I can actually sympathize with that. I know it hurts. I joined this board (somewhat longer ago than this gentleman, and many of the current posters btw) way back in January 1998. Ever since then I have been biting my tongue most of the time. Being a minority (non-American) on the board I censored myself, I tiptoed around issues and was very critical of my own posts, rewriting them several times before posting so as to rule out hurting feelings. I didn't mind, you know, because in my, apparently low-life venom-spitting, corner of the world that I live in, we view respect as a two-way street. Unfortunately, the courtesy was very rarely returned. And not at all, since a certain group of people started to colonize the board. You know all this Rich, because I told you before, and I am sure you have lots of other things on your mind right now. And I don't blame you.

: : : However now, I feel drained and it's come to this. I truely wish everybody the best. My first 2 years on this board and in this community were magic. But the magic is long gone. 

: : : I am crying tonight, because I have to shut down a part of my life that was very important to me. You can make fun of that if you want, Mr. Seamus. You're welcome to it.

: : : Ilse

: : 
: : Ilse,

: : I don't intend to say too much as I expect it would truly be 'too much' & I haven't posted or communicated via the internet/email in quite awhile for various reasons. However, Ilse, there are some things (few, though they be) that are currently more disruptive to my life than the overload of communications generated through the electronic era, one of which would be the tears or hurt of a great friend. You are & have been more than an acquaintance, more than a friend. You are a GREAT friend & I can't ignore this moment. I can't demand you reconsider, nor can I tell you to feel differently. But I can beg & implore you to stay here & post your "quips" as well as exercise your right to express your opinions, observations, perspectives, & thoughts - because we have been & will continue to be richer for it.

: : I think I do understand very well how you feel & I hope that rather than end what has been important to you & to many of us, you take the opportunity to express the frustration you've been feeling for a long time. Yes, I know you've bitten your tongue quite hard & quite often. I also know that you've gone to great lengths time & time again to avoid offending others. Thank you, thank you ... it is appreciated.

: : We've come to this sort of trouble before on the board & I'm sure  we will again. I'd rather take it on, you know? Part of the problem is found within the subject header - "Over Here ... Over There"  as well as the fact that you feel yourself to be a minority (European on an American board). But there is NO 'here or there' on the board! There really isn't! There is a perception at times that this is the case but it is a misperception. This board is not America & it is not used exclusively by, nor intended solely for, Americans. (Even the Seven Years War was broader than that!) I think people do sometimes forget or overlook & conversations get peppered with 'we' & 'us' & 'here' etc. For the most part it is unintended, I'm sure. Nonetheless, yes, a person not living in the U.S.A. can certainly find cause for either exclusion or offense in the way things are sometimes said.

: : Ilse, for the record, has been HERE forever. She has been very much a large chunk of the heart that developed into Mohicanland. I do not want to lose that heart. Forget the magic - it's long gone, but the heart ... Stay here, Ilse, as you are. The days are too stark already.

: : Regarding the "exchange" ... no, there was no opinion voiced nor venom spewed. I would ask people to be a bit more reflective before painting too wide a stroke. American patriotism? Funny thing about that ... I never knew what it felt like (or as Diana so eloquently described, what it tasted like) before 11 September. I never knew what merit American Pride really had before 11 September. I've always lived in the U.S. but I never had cause to feel these words before. I was never "anti-American"   ... I was a disappointed American. My disappointment & criticism never undermined my country, it illustrated one of its great characteristics. If democracy is made stronger by dissent & freedom is nurtured by opposing viewpoints then why accept anything less on a 'global' forum?

: : The original post ... one Romanian editor's reflection upon red, white, & blue - a question was asked regarding an overseas perspective. A person from overseas (who might view the subject nation as overseas?) replied about that perspective. Some would agree, others would disagree. Some would approve, others would disapprove. Some would find comfort in it, others would find it somewhat exaggerative. That's a good thing. A very good thing ...

: : No need to offend or take offense, okay?

: : Ilse - I think I have your point. Please consider what I am asking. I would very much look forward to reading your thoughts and opinions in the coming days, weeks, months, & years.

: : Please ...

: : With regards,

: : Elaine

: Speaking of the electronic era...and all the news we are daily inundated with, I thought back to that scene in "The Patriot" when the two older boys come running from the field when a post rider is spotted headed for their house. Prior to "the electronic era" the populous of a warring country could not feel the intense sting of daily events, nay a moment's events, quite the way we do today and did during the Gulf War (Where is Arthur Kent, the "Scud Stud" these days anyway)? Yet, we are still just as starved for what information can be had, addicted almost because it is so easily obtained. With the borage of news of daily atrocities having a cumulative effect piled on us after "the main event", we ARE sensitive. I may be a dummy, but I read Theresa's comment about patriotism being called into question, meaning the WTC and Pentagon assault called it into question, not Ilse. There has been an intense call to our patriotism, a "Stand and Deliver" if you will, that has been no burden at all to put forth. That does I think make Americans a bit more introspective, and perhaps a little tunnel vision exists right now. I STILL cry every single day, I hurt every single day for the families that lost loved ones, for a world changed. I found *a few phrases* in the editorial I posted as warming, as Elaine put it. I didn't think it one of the masses of information being forwarded around (turns out it was), so I shared it here. I still feel warmed by it, but am sorry for the hurt feelings that ensued. My first reaction to Ilse's reply to Chris was "Man, why is she being so rude to Chris of all people?" Then... I pictured her saying it with her fun laugh and realized it WAS just an Ilse quip. I'm sorry myself for the misunderstanding and hope you will always hang out here. Your posts, opinions, and thoughts have always been welcome ones by me. Its the variety of this board that makes it so special and you have always been a KEY part of that mix. I think we probably need our international friends now more than ever to redirect our perspective when need be. My teenage daughter oftens says, "it's not all about you Mom" (which translated means, "It's all about me, Mom"), and I think Americans are employing a bit of exclusivity in thinking these days, but that isn't a good thing. This is a world problem. Please don't stay away Ilse!!!

: From one who will always hold out hope the "magic" will be found again some day,

: Diana S.


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