Re: Over here ... Over there..... or Utopia?

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: : : : One month has passed. It seems an eternity.

: : : : Over here, in the USA, we were traumatized. The resulting bonding & patriotism has been a good, and healing, thing. We now wage war ... and we will win ... I feel we'll win decisively. That too will be a good, and healing, thing. The words mean what they say.

: : : : I am not naive enough to believe the rest of the world will all view it as such.  I know different parts of the world will view things from different points of view. Understandable. I do believe most will, though, view it as a good thing. Certainly, I hope so.

: : : : As I said the other day, today I am proud of who we are. Very proud.

: : : : Stay cool, folks - all opinions are welcome, but be cool.

: : : Rich,

: : : You're my friend. I will try to explain my position as I see it. I will not address your remarks about America's trauma, because to me that is clear and undisputed. But....

: : : The exchange you are referring to was never about opinions, was not about substance, nor was it meant to be. I made a quip at a post that was "stretching it a bit" as Adele so excellently put it. For the record, the person it was addressed to, responded in great style. Unlike somebody else, who found it necessary to jump me, accuse me of calling American patriotism into question and start to lecture and talk down to me like I am some ignorant 5-year old.

: : : I invite you to read that thread again, and I ask you:
: : : Do I call American patriotism into question? I don't.
: : : Do I voice an opinion? I don't.
: : : Have I voiced any opinions lately? No, because I am scared sh*tless of the kind of ruckus that it may cause on this board. Ironic than, isn't it, that when I DON'T voice an opinion at all, hell breaks loose. It should give you something to think about on the atmosphere on the board.

: : : There seems to be a gentleman who had to bite his tongue last night. I can actually sympathize with that. I know it hurts. I joined this board (somewhat longer ago than this gentleman, and many of the current posters btw) way back in January 1998. Ever since then I have been biting my tongue most of the time. Being a minority (non-American) on the board I censored myself, I tiptoed around issues and was very critical of my own posts, rewriting them several times before posting so as to rule out hurting feelings. I didn't mind, you know, because in my, apparently low-life venom-spitting, corner of the world that I live in, we view respect as a two-way street. Unfortunately, the courtesy was very rarely returned. And not at all, since a certain group of people started to colonize the board. You know all this Rich, because I told you before, and I am sure you have lots of other things on your mind right now. And I don't blame you.

: : : However now, I feel drained and it's come to this. I truely wish everybody the best. My first 2 years on this board and in this community were magic. But the magic is long gone. 

: : : I am crying tonight, because I have to shut down a part of my life that was very important to me. You can make fun of that if you want, Mr. Seamus. You're welcome to it.

: : : Ilse

: : 
: : Ilse,

: : I don't intend to say too much as I expect it would truly be 'too much' & I haven't posted or communicated via the internet/email in quite awhile for various reasons. However, Ilse, there are some things (few, though they be) that are currently more disruptive to my life than the overload of communications generated through the electronic era, one of which would be the tears or hurt of a great friend. You are & have been more than an acquaintance, more than a friend. You are a GREAT friend & I can't ignore this moment. I can't demand you reconsider, nor can I tell you to feel differently. But I can beg & implore you to stay here & post your "quips" as well as exercise your right to express your opinions, observations, perspectives, & thoughts - because we have been & will continue to be richer for it.

: : I think I do understand very well how you feel & I hope that rather than end what has been important to you & to many of us, you take the opportunity to express the frustration you've been feeling for a long time. Yes, I know you've bitten your tongue quite hard & quite often. I also know that you've gone to great lengths time & time again to avoid offending others. Thank you, thank you ... it is appreciated.

: : We've come to this sort of trouble before on the board & I'm sure  we will again. I'd rather take it on, you know? Part of the problem is found within the subject header - "Over Here ... Over There"  as well as the fact that you feel yourself to be a minority (European on an American board). But there is NO 'here or there' on the board! There really isn't! There is a perception at times that this is the case but it is a misperception. This board is not America & it is not used exclusively by, nor intended solely for, Americans. (Even the Seven Years War was broader than that!) I think people do sometimes forget or overlook & conversations get peppered with 'we' & 'us' & 'here' etc. For the most part it is unintended, I'm sure. Nonetheless, yes, a person not living in the U.S.A. can certainly find cause for either exclusion or offense in the way things are sometimes said.

: : Ilse, for the record, has been HERE forever. She has been very much a large chunk of the heart that developed into Mohicanland. I do not want to lose that heart. Forget the magic - it's long gone, but the heart ... Stay here, Ilse, as you are. The days are too stark already.

: : Regarding the "exchange" ... no, there was no opinion voiced nor venom spewed. I would ask people to be a bit more reflective before painting too wide a stroke. American patriotism? Funny thing about that ... I never knew what it felt like (or as Diana so eloquently described, what it tasted like) before 11 September. I never knew what merit American Pride really had before 11 September. I've always lived in the U.S. but I never had cause to feel these words before. I was never "anti-American"   ... I was a disappointed American. My disappointment & criticism never undermined my country, it illustrated one of its great characteristics. If democracy is made stronger by dissent & freedom is nurtured by opposing viewpoints then why accept anything less on a 'global' forum?

: : The original post ... one Romanian editor's reflection upon red, white, & blue - a question was asked regarding an overseas perspective. A person from overseas (who might view the subject nation as overseas?) replied about that perspective. Some would agree, others would disagree. Some would approve, others would disapprove. Some would find comfort in it, others would find it somewhat exaggerative. That's a good thing. A very good thing ...

: : No need to offend or take offense, okay?

: : Ilse - I think I have your point. Please consider what I am asking. I would very much look forward to reading your thoughts and opinions in the coming days, weeks, months, & years.

: : Please ...

: : With regards,

: : Elaine

: ~~~~~~~~~

: As usual, Elaine, you have expressed my feelings in a far more eloquent and level headed way than I ever could.....

: I would just like to add my two pennyworth if I may tho...

: Ilse and I travelled to the gathering together this year, spent a week in each others company and debated many topics with great gusto during that period.  We may both come from 'over there'...but we come from two very different countries...and have opposing opinions on a great many very important issues.  During the time we were together, we never once lost respect for the person we were debating with, we never once wasted time pouting about the difference in opinion, or got over-emotional or defensive in our discussion.  To me, it was a true pleasure being able to spend time with such an articulate, intelligent individual with well considered opinions who never once lost her sense of humour or dignity.

: I would also like to add that I have actively encouraged Ilse to post on the board recently for the express purpose of broadening the range of discussion, and providing a different perspective.  As someone who also feels very much the outsider when it comes to some of the issues discussed here recently, I would have welcomed her posts.  One of my greatest joys is talking to people from different backgrounds and cultures, learning about them and their way of life.......it is by understanding our differences that brings us all closer together.

: We learn a great deal by listening to others....we form and validate our own opinions....by not only listening, but HEARING what others say.....WHAT they say...not what we THINK they say.

: One last thing about Ilse....a minor point maybe....how many other people can express themselves as well as Ilse in a second language?

: Come back Ilse....this place would most certainly not be the same without you....

: Hugs my friend
: Adele


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