Re: An Afghan Perspective ... First Victims

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Posted by Elaine on September 20, 2001 at 14:00:16:

In Reply to: Re: An Afghan Perspective ... First Victims posted by Bill R on September 20, 2001 at 10:24:27:

: Bombing back to the stone age is an emotional response. Nobody seriously condones that. Our leaders certainly don't.

: I don't think you can connect the two statements. We do need to be able to have the stomach for what needs to be done - in other words, the resolve, the patience to take it sensibly one step at a time.

: I see in online news that the Taliban has made their decision: tell Bin Laden to leave Afghanistan. If they carry through with that, then he is on the run. Other nations won't want to face the possibility of war with us either. Safe havens for these people will dry up. They will be exposed. That was the point.
: Sometimes thugs like the Taliban and others won't do the right thing unless it is clear that it will cost them more than you.

: Also, I see that the US has been the biggest contributor to food relief in Afghanistan even now. It was one of the contradictions the media aired: Bin Laden attacks us and here we are feeding those starving people you mentioned. In general, the American heart is good. Statements like "bomb them back to the stone age" are just simplistic emotional gut responses like "go to hell". I don't determine if you go to hell - God does. And the idiots who say bomb them back to the stone age don't determine the response we make - our leaders and Congress do.

: We do need to have the fortitude to continue with a world wide program of taking the ratholes away from these terrorists, and making them anathema to the entire world so they are not supported and are always on the run. That is the kind of stomach we need. No sensible person thinks the solution is to bomb the populace. Give our leaders and military credit for having the same common sense we do.

: Good to hear from you though. It was a good perspective.

I don't think the 'bomb to the stone age' reaction has any governmental weight at all but it does reflect a lack of awareness of Afghanistan's current status & its more recent history. (As well as our own folly of walking away once the Afghans defeated the Soviet Union.) The author of that letter took the opportunity to attempt to explain some basic realities that should be known, particularly to Americans.

The will to do the job, as I mean it, means not the will to decimate the Afghan population but the resolve to accept the enormity of the objective, the inevitable casualties (American, British, etc. troops as well as civilian populations), the lengthy time required to see the end, & the eruption of some very frightening retaliations. One can not overemphasize the complexities of the middle east & the egg shell balancing of diplomacy.

Yes, Americans basically have a good heart & it will be called upon again & again. The food relief, incidentally, is one of the things bin Laden resents seeing, just as he resented the U.S. military presence in Saudi Arabia. He sees humanitarian aid by the western nations as a great insult & a sign of weakness. I give you Somalia. Yes, he said the U.S. is weak, a "paper tiger."
Our previous lack of will to respond 'proved' this to him & those who follow him. He boasted how weak the "great super power" really was & our lack of will empowered the terrorist will to attack more boldly & more terribly.

Regarding the Taliban; there is no separating the rogue Taliban from the Al Qaeda or from bin Laden. They are the same. The empty words are nothing more. Osama bin Laden isn't on the run. He's still protected. Incidentally, the majority of the Taliban members are Pakistani, not Afghan. They didn't do the right thing. They will never do the right thing.

The key word, Bill, was anathema. That is the objective.

E
___________________________________________________________
: : The following letter is more than a perspective, it's a reality that needs to be recognized & understood.

: : ***********

:
: : Another perspective

: : Tamim Ansary
: : (Afghan-American writer)

: : I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back
: : to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed
: : that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had
: : nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have
: : to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes
: : later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we
: : "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from
: : Afghanistan, and, even though I've lived here for 35 years, I've
: : never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to
: : tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm
: : standing. I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin
: : Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were
: : responsible for the atrocity in New York.
: : I agree that something must be done about those monsters.
: : But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not
: : even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of
: : ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden
: : is a political criminal with a plan.
: : When you think Taliban, think Nazi SS. When you think
: : Bin Laden, think Hitler.
: : And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the
: : Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the
: : first victims of the perpetrators.
: : They would exult if someone would come in there, take
: : out the Taliban and clear out the rat's nest of international
: : thugs holed up in their country.
: : Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow
: : the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt,
: : incapacitated, suffering.
: : A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.
: : There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying
: : these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with
: : land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.
: : We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done.
: : Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate
: : their hospitals?
: : Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
: : New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only
: : the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around.
: : They'd slip away and hide.
: : Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans,
: : they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But
: : flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike
: : against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once
: : again the people they've been raping all this time.
: : So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me
: : now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin
: : Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to
: : do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the
: : belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any
: : moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads
: : out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying.
: : And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way
: : through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's
: : much bigger than that, folks. Because to get any troops
: : to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us?
: : Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first.
: : Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going.
: : We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
: : And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he
: : wants.

: : That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the West.
: : It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the
: : world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the
: : West wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people
: : with nothing left to lose; even better from Bin Laden's point
: : of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours.
: : Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

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Re: An Afghan Perspective ... First Victims Diana S. 09:02:01 9/22/2001 (0)

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Comments:
: : Bombing back to the stone age is an emotional response. Nobody seriously condones that. Our leaders certainly don't.

: : I don't think you can connect the two statements. We do need to be able to have the stomach for what needs to be done - in other words, the resolve, the patience to take it sensibly one step at a time.

: : I see in online news that the Taliban has made their decision: tell Bin Laden to leave Afghanistan. If they carry through with that, then he is on the run. Other nations won't want to face the possibility of war with us either. Safe havens for these people will dry up. They will be exposed. That was the point.
: : Sometimes thugs like the Taliban and others won't do the right thing unless it is clear that it will cost them more than you.

: : Also, I see that the US has been the biggest contributor to food relief in Afghanistan even now. It was one of the contradictions the media aired: Bin Laden attacks us and here we are feeding those starving people you mentioned. In general, the American heart is good. Statements like "bomb them back to the stone age" are just simplistic emotional gut responses like "go to hell". I don't determine if you go to hell - God does. And the idiots who say bomb them back to the stone age don't determine the response we make - our leaders and Congress do.

: : We do need to have the fortitude to continue with a world wide program of taking the ratholes away from these terrorists, and making them anathema to the entire world so they are not supported and are always on the run. That is the kind of stomach we need. No sensible person thinks the solution is to bomb the populace. Give our leaders and military credit for having the same common sense we do.

: : Good to hear from you though. It was a good perspective.

:
: I don't think the 'bomb to the stone age' reaction has any governmental weight at all but it does reflect a lack of awareness of Afghanistan's current status & its more recent history. (As well as our own folly of walking away once the Afghans defeated the Soviet Union.) The author of that letter took the opportunity to attempt to explain some basic realities that should be known, particularly to Americans.

: The will to do the job, as I mean it, means not the will to decimate the Afghan population but the resolve to accept the enormity of the objective, the inevitable casualties (American, British, etc. troops as well as civilian populations), the lengthy time required to see the end, & the eruption of some very frightening retaliations. One can not overemphasize the complexities of the middle east & the egg shell balancing of diplomacy.

: Yes, Americans basically have a good heart & it will be called upon again & again. The food relief, incidentally, is one of the things bin Laden resents seeing, just as he resented the U.S. military presence in Saudi Arabia. He sees humanitarian aid by the western nations as a great insult & a sign of weakness. I give you Somalia. Yes, he said the U.S. is weak, a "paper tiger."
: Our previous lack of will to respond 'proved' this to him & those who follow him. He boasted how weak the "great super power" really was & our lack of will empowered the terrorist will to attack more boldly & more terribly.

: Regarding the Taliban; there is no separating the rogue Taliban from the Al Qaeda or from bin Laden. They are the same. The empty words are nothing more. Osama bin Laden isn't on the run. He's still protected. Incidentally, the majority of the Taliban members are Pakistani, not Afghan. They didn't do the right thing. They will never do the right thing.

: The key word, Bill, was anathema. That is the objective.

: E
: ___________________________________________________________
: : : The following letter is more than a perspective, it's a reality that needs to be recognized & understood.

: : : ***********

: :
: : : Another perspective

: : : Tamim Ansary
: : : (Afghan-American writer)

: : : I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back
: : : to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed
: : : that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had
: : : nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have
: : : to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes
: : : later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we
: : : "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from
: : : Afghanistan, and, even though I've lived here for 35 years, I've
: : : never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to
: : : tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm
: : : standing. I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin
: : : Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were
: : : responsible for the atrocity in New York.
: : : I agree that something must be done about those monsters.
: : : But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not
: : : even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of
: : : ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden
: : : is a political criminal with a plan.
: : : When you think Taliban, think Nazi SS. When you think
: : : Bin Laden, think Hitler.
: : : And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the
: : : Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the
: : : first victims of the perpetrators.
: : : They would exult if someone would come in there, take
: : : out the Taliban and clear out the rat's nest of international
: : : thugs holed up in their country.
: : : Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow
: : : the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt,
: : : incapacitated, suffering.
: : : A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.
: : : There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying
: : : these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with
: : : land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.
: : : We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done.
: : : Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate
: : : their hospitals?
: : : Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
: : : New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only
: : : the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around.
: : : They'd slip away and hide.
: : : Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans,
: : : they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But
: : : flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike
: : : against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once
: : : again the people they've been raping all this time.
: : : So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me
: : : now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin
: : : Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to
: : : do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the
: : : belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any
: : : moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads
: : : out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying.
: : : And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way
: : : through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's
: : : much bigger than that, folks. Because to get any troops
: : : to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us?
: : : Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first.
: : : Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going.
: : : We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
: : : And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he
: : : wants.

: : : That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the West.
: : : It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the
: : : world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the
: : : West wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people
: : : with nothing left to lose; even better from Bin Laden's point
: : : of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours.
: : : Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

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