Re: A Parley?

Posted by Elaine on August 07, 1998 at 22:55:23:

In Reply to: Re: A posted by JC on August 07, 1998 at 18:51:03:

": I did not in any way take Rich's post as offensive or belittling, AND I fully understand that he was merely expressing his thoughts about the Alice characterization."

> JC,
Good! I think it was the Foo Foo thing that made me wonder. :)
I swear! I swear! I will say nothing to Alice (or about her, uhmmm, difficulties?) after this. A promise.

": Do you not believe that when an artist creates something he allows his audience, viewer, whatever the case may be , to draw from it their own meaning? A song, a painting, a book, a film. I believe that Mann saw the original LOTM film(1936?)as a little boy and altered it in his mind- making his 92 adaptation into his vision of how he thought it should be. Mann himself changed Cooper's story- the story that was already written, the film that had already been made."

>I think an artist hopes that his audience will see what he intended to convey. There is some room to draw differing perceptions of a work, but I think this is more in the realm of an emotional reaction (some may feel inspired by a work of art while others may find it depressing). If I paint a black buffalo, I want you to see a black buffalo. However, the mood it evokes can be different from one person to another. If Cooper/Mann gave us an unstable Alice, then they'd want you to see her as such. Otherwise, I would have to say that they each failed their task. How you react to her is the variable. Some love her, some hate her, some pity her.

As for Mann; yes, he "changed" Cooper's story, "altering" it to fit his own vision. That's exactly my point. He saw things that he wanted to be different so he reworked it. He wanted Alice to be "involved" with Uncas and Cora to be "involved" with Hawkeye, so he simply reversed their roles. He changed it. Just as those who want Alice to be stronger are changing her personality from what is already written or created.
I find nothing wrong with that, it's just that changes should be recognized as such. Though Michael Mann altered certain aspects of LOTM in his version, he didn't say Cooper meant it to be his way. He saw things that he felt should be different or he wanted to be different and he "corrected" them to suit his mind's eye.

": There are many Magua lovers on the board. Some see Magua not as the main antagonist, but as just another player in a series of tragic events- seeking revenge for the death of his children and the loss of his wife to another man. They feel he has been wrongfully characterized as the bad guy. Is this changing the story that is already written, or just looking at something in a different way?"

>I am not anti-Magua (ask Victoria!). Whether or not we like his character (or the actor who is portraying him), he IS the antagonist. That's his role. Understanding why he is as he is doesn't alter his purpose in the story, nor does it relieve him of his "bad guy" status. He has been characterized as the bad guy by Cooper who created him, and then again by Mann who scripted him. The degree of empathy or pity we feel for him is a reflection of ourselves, not of Magua. If you say you understand him and even root for him then that is looking at something in your own way. But if you say he is wrongfully characterized as the bad guy, then I think you are changing his character and role.

": I have considered everything that you have said. Can't my feelings, observations, opinions, and whatnot about the film simply be based on my interpretations without having to be backed up with evidence that Mann has or hasn't given us? If this were a scientific theory or a mathematical equation I would still question it if I believed with all of my being that it was not as it appeared."

> To a degree, yes. But interpretations can only go so far. There still remains some aspects that simply are what they are, no matter how we'd prefer them to be played out differently. (I know there are some obsessive-possessive DDL nuts around here who would like to believe that Hawkeye bores of Cora rather quickly, that she's all wrong for him, and if given the chance, would drop her like a bad habit for them! Mary? Marcia? Could this be you? There are a few who would like to have pushed Alice off the cliff before Uncas "wasted" himself for her, too!)

": Peace? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

: JC"

>
Paz. And thanks!

Elaine

Follow Ups:

• Re: A Parley? JC 11:19:56 8/08/98 (4)
  • Re: A Parley? Katherine 07:43:23 8/10/98 (1)
    • Re: A Parley? JC 09:30:18 8/10/98 (0)
  • Re: A TRanslation Please Vita 11:27:13 8/08/98 (1)
    • Re: A TRanslation Please JC 11:41:06 8/08/98 (0)

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Comments:
: 
: ": I did not in any way take Rich's post as offensive or belittling, AND I fully understand that he was merely expressing his thoughts about the Alice characterization."

: > JC,
: Good! I think it was the Foo Foo thing that made me wonder. :)
: I swear! I swear! I will say nothing to Alice (or about her, uhmmm, difficulties?) after this. A promise.

: ": Do you not believe that when an artist creates something he allows his audience, viewer, whatever the case may be , to draw from it their own meaning? A song, a painting, a book, a film.  I believe that Mann saw the original LOTM film(1936?)as a little boy and altered it in his mind- making his 92 adaptation into his vision of how he thought it should be.  Mann himself changed Cooper's story- the story that was already written, the film that had already been made."

: >I think an artist hopes that his audience will see what he intended to convey. There is some room to draw differing perceptions of a work, but I think this is more in the realm of an emotional reaction (some may feel inspired by a work of art while others may find it depressing). If I paint a black buffalo, I want you to see a black buffalo. However, the mood it evokes can be different from one person to another. If Cooper/Mann gave us an unstable Alice, then they'd want you to see her as such. Otherwise, I would have to say that they each failed their task. How you react to her is the variable. Some love her, some hate her, some pity her.

: As for Mann; yes, he "changed" Cooper's story, "altering" it to fit his own vision. That's exactly my point. He saw things that he wanted to be different so he reworked it. He wanted Alice to be "involved" with Uncas and Cora to be "involved" with Hawkeye, so he simply reversed their roles. He changed it. Just as those who want Alice to be stronger are changing her personality from what is already written or created.
: I find nothing wrong with that, it's just that changes should be recognized as such. Though Michael Mann altered certain aspects of LOTM in his version, he didn't say Cooper meant it to be his way. He saw things that he felt should be different or he wanted to be different and he "corrected" them to suit his mind's eye.

: ": There are many Magua lovers on the board.  Some see Magua not as the main antagonist, but as just another player in a series of tragic events- seeking revenge for the death of his children and the loss of his wife to another man. They feel he has been wrongfully characterized as the bad guy. Is this changing the story that is already written, or just looking at something in a different way?"

: >I am not anti-Magua (ask Victoria!). Whether or not we like his character (or the actor who is portraying him), he IS the antagonist. That's his role. Understanding why he is as he is doesn't alter his purpose in the story, nor does it relieve him of his "bad guy" status. He has been characterized as the bad guy by Cooper who created him, and then again by Mann who scripted him. The degree of empathy or pity we feel for him is a reflection of ourselves, not of Magua. If you say you understand him and even root for him then that is looking at something in your own way. But if you say he is wrongfully characterized as the bad guy, then I think you are changing his character and role.

: ": I have considered everything that you have said.  Can't my feelings, observations, opinions, and whatnot about the film simply be based on my interpretations without having to be backed up with evidence that Mann has or hasn't given us?  If this were a scientific theory or a mathematical equation I would still question it if I believed with all of my being that it was not as it appeared."

: > To a degree, yes. But interpretations can only go so far. There still remains some aspects that simply are what they are, no matter how we'd prefer them to be played out differently. (I know there are some obsessive-possessive DDL nuts around here who would like to believe that Hawkeye bores of Cora rather quickly, that she's all wrong for him, and if given the chance, would drop her like a bad habit for them! Mary? Marcia? Could this be you? There are a few who would like to have pushed Alice off the cliff before Uncas "wasted" himself for her, too!)  

: ": Peace? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

: : JC"

: > 
: Paz. And thanks!

: Elaine


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