Re: Rifles, Tomahawks & Tactics

Posted by Tom Kilbane on January 02, 1998 at 16:57:48:

In Reply to: Rifles, Tomahawks & Tactics posted by Victoria on January 01, 1998 at 08:18:10:

Victoria,

I tried to respond to this post earlier but I guess it was lost during the change of boards. Also I mistakenly addressed my previous response to Mike Zearnes.

The major reason behind the defeats of Josiah Harmar and Arthur St. Clair was already answered by yourself in that these "armies" were made up of untrained militia with maybe a small core of regulars. These were more armed mobs than armies. When confronted in battle by men who had been trained since boyhood to be warriors these militiamen were predictably slaughtered. Also being caught alseep in an unfortified camp, as St. Clair was, does not give an army a good chance for victory. The militia would remain a bane of the American army throughout the 18th and 19th century.

Contrast the mobs of St. Clair and Harmar with the army of General Anthony Wayne. There was nothing "Mad" about how Wayne refused to engage his army until he felt it was properly trained and ready. When Wayne finally did engage his army the result was the desicive victory of Fallen Timbers which broke the tribes of the Old Northwest forever. Wayne was confronted by the same well-led warriors that Harmar and St. Clair had come to grief against but the result was entirely different. The average Shawnee and Miami warrior was still a better fighter than the average American but the difference between victory and defeat was training and teamwork. Wayne's army had those advantages; Harmar's and St. Clair's did not. Also I don't want to neglect the generalship of Anthony Wayne whose diligence and skill as a commander made victory possible.

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• Re: Rifles, Tomahawks & Tactics Victoria 07:36:23 1/03/98 (0)

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: Victoria,

: I tried to respond to this post earlier but I guess it was lost during the change of boards.  Also I mistakenly addressed my previous response to Mike Zearnes.

: The major reason behind the defeats of Josiah Harmar and Arthur St. Clair was already answered by yourself in that these "armies" were made up of untrained militia with maybe a small core of regulars.  These were more armed mobs than armies.  When confronted in battle by men who had been trained since boyhood to be warriors these militiamen were predictably slaughtered.  Also being caught alseep in an unfortified camp, as St. Clair was, does not give an army a good chance for victory.   The militia would remain a bane of the American army throughout the 18th and 19th century.

: Contrast the mobs of St. Clair and Harmar with the army of General Anthony Wayne.  There was nothing "Mad" about how Wayne refused to engage his army until he felt it was properly trained and ready.  When Wayne finally did engage his army the result was the desicive victory of Fallen Timbers which broke the tribes of the Old Northwest forever.  Wayne was confronted by the same well-led warriors that Harmar and St. Clair had come to grief against but the result was entirely different.  The average Shawnee and Miami warrior was still a better fighter than the average American but the difference between victory and defeat was training and teamwork.  Wayne's army had those advantages; Harmar's and St. Clair's did not.  Also I don't want to neglect the generalship of Anthony Wayne whose diligence and skill as a commander made victory possible.


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