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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
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 Posted - December 15 2004 : 8:55:18 PM
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John Martin, Trumpeter
Thirteenth Witness
Martini statement:
"After he saw the village, he pulled off his hat and gave a cheer and said,'Courage , boys, we will get them, and as soon as we get through, we will go back to our stations."
Reno Inquiry 25 day of November, 1978 - February 11, 1879
Graham, Reno Inquiry p,130.
Cavalry Journal, July 1923 Graham: Martini statement
p, 290 -Custer Myth
"The General seemed both surprised and glad, and said the Indians must be in their tents, asleep. We did not see anything of Reno's column when we were up on the hill. I am sure the General did not see them at all, because he looked all around with his glasses, and all he said was that we had 'got them this time.'He turned in the saddle and took off his hat and waved it so the men of the command, who were halted at the base of the hill, could see him, and he shouted to them. 'Hurrah, boys, we've got them! We'll finish them up and go home to our station.'
"John Martini, the trumpeter, bringing this dispatch was a thick headed, dull witted Italian, just about as much cut out for a cavalryman as he was for a King: He informed me that the Indians were 'shidaddling.'
Benteen, Custer Myth-Graham, p,180.
In the same article, Graham gives us two versions of what Martini said. He then explains his rational for the "asleep" theory. Benteen's unsubstantiated comparison of a man's nationality equating his level of intelligence speaks for itself. Could this be the true birth of this quandary?
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Edited by - joseph wiggs on December 15 2004 9:02:26 PM |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
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Posted - December 16 2004 : 09:48:33 AM
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What quandary do you speak of?
R. Larsen |
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Smcf
Captain
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Posted - December 16 2004 : 10:41:00 AM
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The quandry here is Martin telling Benteen, and heard by others that the Indians were running, then being quoted in Graham that they were "asleep".
Another quandry is how Martin happened to have his horse shot. There must have been Indians reasonably close by. I thought, by all accounts, that they were all west of the river - a large section fighting Reno and perhaps a large number at least preparing to meet the Custer threat. |
Edited by - Smcf on December 16 2004 10:45:11 AM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
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Posted - December 16 2004 : 9:31:03 PM
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Smcf, thank you for recognizing that a "quandry" does exist. Your points are very well taken. We have no way of knowing the extent of Benteen's influence on Graham's perception of Martini's ability or inability to comprehend American colloquialisms.
Secondly, warriors must have been on the eastern side of the river, how else do we explain Martini's mount being wounded as he emerged from Cedar Coulee traveling towards Benteen. Dr. Lord was killed ascending the bluffs (on the east side of the river)towards Reno's eventual position, by warriors already there.Again, very good points. Thank you. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
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Posted - December 16 2004 : 9:41:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Smcf, thank you for recognizing that a "quandry" does exist. Your points are very well taken. We have no way of knowing the extent of Benteen's influence on Graham's perception of Martini's ability or inability to comprehend American colloquialisms.
How would Benteen influence Graham's perception? Graham talked with him firsthand, so why would he need Benteen to intervene?
quote:
Secondly, warriors must have been on the eastern side of the river, how else do we explain Martini's mount being wounded as he emerged from Cedar Coulee traveling towards Benteen. Dr. Lord was killed ascending the bluffs (on the east side of the river)towards Reno's eventual position, by warriors already there.Again, very good points. Thank you.
This is no news. First, Custer's column had encountered Indians on the east side from the start of that day, all the way back to Crow's Nest and the Curtiss breadbox. Second, Kanipe claimed to have seen 60 Indians on the east side shortly after Reno broke off to begin his attack. Martin's story has been known for a long time, though he did no favors by not telling it at the time to Boston, as seems the case.
Wrong doctor, Wiggs. DeWolf was killed on the bluffs, though I don't think it's any shock that Indians were there then, since they'd been pursuing the troops at their heels all the way from the timber.
R. Larsen |
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Smcf
Captain
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Posted - December 17 2004 : 05:00:31 AM
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Apologies for my poor English. I meant "the quandary for me ... ". Yes - I know some Indians were encountered on the way to LBH, but they were seen heading back in the direction of the village when spotted. In all that time from Crows Nest to when the note was en route, the story is that Martin's horse was the only casualty east of the river. If Indians were already up near the Custer column in signifcant numbers, then perhaps the ambush story is right on the nail after all - Reno believed it, didn't he?
I know it is nothing new about Indians being spotted east of the river, but to a layman like me, the whole tenor of the discussions with regard to the Custer fight centre on a graduated Indian attack from west of the river. |
Edited by - Smcf on December 17 2004 05:13:52 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 17 2004 : 12:45:31 PM
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You were clear, SMCF, Wiggs was not. He's trying to imply a mystery about whether Benteen's supposed prejudice against Italians made him lie about Martini's remarks. Unfortunately for him, Benteen isn't the sole source for them, and in any case Benteen was furious at Martini, not Italians in general, for leading them to believe that the Indians were in flight and Custer in the ascendent when his own testimony says he had no basis for that.
Benteen was racist as virtually every was back then, but he honored Martin towards the end in civil fashion, and there is no evidence anyone thought ill of him before that day. Still, a good written message by Headquarters, as it's called - or even an adequate one - would have rendered all this moot.
In any case, nothing that Benteen said or thought in 1876 is quite as inappropriate as Wiggs' making fun of the handicapped with his tasteful reference to Idiots and ...... in this thread. Truly, he can say he wrote the book on that subject, compiled from this forum, sitting in his well lit glass lodge. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 21 2004 : 9:33:57 PM
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The statement that Benteen "honored Martini towards the end" is completely new to me. Are you suggesting that his racist remarks were off-set by a subsequent change of heart? It's not that I don't believe you because I do. However, could you direct me to this source of information that I, apparently, have over looked?
Ps. You really like the term "moot" don't you. I do too! We have so much in common. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on December 21 2004 9:35:57 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 21 2004 : 9:52:42 PM
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Certainly. Benteen honored Martin in reference as the last man to see Custer on some document. It's in the Graham chapter on Benteen.
Benteen's remarks about this specific Italian (not Italians in general) certainly sings in memory compared to yours about the mentally handicapped, who you call retards. You lose on every front, Wiggs. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
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Posted - January 30 2005 : 1:03:25 PM
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Checked through Graham's chapter on Benteen (Chapter 4, P.157-214)
Page 180 - "John Martini, the trumpeter, bringing the dispatch was a thick headed, dull witted Italian, just about as much cut out for a cavalryman as he was for a King."
The above was the only reference to Martini made by Benteen in this chapter. I was unable to locate "some document" wherein Benteen honored Sgt. Martini. Could you have been mistaken?
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donfisk
Recruit
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 18 2005 : 12:50:04 AM
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Good evening gents. I can't go through all six pages, so if this comment has been made past p. 1, or if I missed it on page 1, sorry. I wanted to ask Sargent what he meant by "...GAC didn't know Reno had failed until he reached the river". When you say "he", are you refering to Reno reaching the river on his retreat, or GAC at MTC? If you mean the latter, how would he have known at that time? Reno's position in the valley is not now, nor would it have been then, visible from MTC. Besides, you are "stating a fact not in evidence"; that GAC went down MTC. We don't really know, maybe he did and maybe he didn't. I think that the weight of opinions is that he did not do so.
Do you mean that GAC saw Reno on he hilltop after his failed charge? Please elaborate. Thanks. |
Don Fisk |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
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Posted - March 18 2005 : 11:18:45 AM
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| Why no, I'm not mistaken, Wiggs. Page 288, Benteen signed Martin's discharge papers with the added note "the only surviving witness of the Custer massacre," a clear kindness and, being an official document, of value to Martin. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 18 2005 : 1:24:17 PM
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"the only surviving witness of the Custer massacre,"
Rather ironic that inscription.He might have added and "Custer's only hope but he blew it".
That was the moment that probably ensured Custer's doom.The moment Martin reached Benteen and reported that the Indians were running.He had seen the valley swarming with Indians and Reno in severe difficulties.A number of Indians had even gotten close enough to him to wound his horse,but he reports that they are running.He knows that he has made a terrible mistake because he says that Benteen would not give him time to tell about Reno.Instead we have the laughable situation of Benteen discussing the state of Martin's horse.Martin is also uneasy about the fact that Benteen has not sent back word to the pack train.
Benteen in posession of the come quick message and a correct report of Reno's situation just might have moved much quicker to support the units engaged. Arriving at Reno's position 10 minutes sooner he could have held those Indians off Custer giving him a fighting chance.
Poor old Martin he must have died with a troubled conscience.
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 18 2005 : 1:59:03 PM
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wILD,
I would say the "Indians were running" statement is probably misinterpreted.
The only direction the Indians were running was right at Reno and right at Custer. And, I doubt if anyone would have been still alive had Benteen high-tailed it to Custer's relief. For Benteen, I think it would have been akin to jumping into a pool of hungry pirahnas...and trying to save the bones of the previous jumper.
By the way, how was St. Patrick's Day in Ireland? I made it home alive last night. |
Bob Bostwick |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 18 2005 : 2:04:21 PM
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If true, of course. I'm hesitant to blame Martin for being in that position; the note was no more informative. In any case, Custer's guys were cooked when they crossed MTC at any elevation, conceding a surround from that very feature of the land.
Either way, I don't think enough has been said about the notion of stopping cavalry without cover to fight a defensive battle, taking casualties among men and mounts, and in the real world being able to remotely take the offensive again. I cannot believe for a second Custer or any of his officers thought that a holding action without cover with 360 degree vulnerability, followed by Benteen's arrival with or without the train, would result in an ability to even retreat with wounded, much less a continuation of the attack, or anything but a feed of more immobile troopers to the same hill. As an idea, it makes no sense whatever, and I don't believe any officer of the 7th held it. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 18 2005 : 2:18:03 PM
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The earlier arrival of Benteen at Reno's position might have held Gall's boys in position.Would that have given Custer a chance who knows?
St Pats ! it's ok but the kids make a mess of it .Too much money too much drink spoils it. |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 18 2005 : 3:31:31 PM
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wILD,
DC is a little more specific, but we've each shared the exact thoughts regarding Custer's situation. And, we completely agree. As for Benteen, what difference could he have made with 125, or so, more soldiers prior to Custer's assault? In my mind, it would only have resulted in 125, or so, more bodies to bury.
The cavalry were the shock troops. Once stopped and falling back, they're no longer effective. Surrounded and mounted, they might make a break for higher ground. Dismounted (or rapidly being dismounted) they were dead men. Reno, dismounted but kept the horses in hand, keeping opportunity to their fannies out of there and, most of them, living to tell the tale.
As for St. Pat's, pretty much the same in this country---amateur night for alcohol consumption. |
Bob Bostwick |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 18 2005 : 5:56:43 PM
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Heavyrunner
what difference could he have made with 125,
The Indians had no Idea what his strenght was and with another force [the pack train and escort]a short distance behind there was a good chance the Indians attacking Reno would not have gone to attack Custer.Also Benteen would have commanded the heights giving him the advantage.Until the arrival of Gall's Indians Keogh and Calhoun were holding their own perhaps giving Custer a rallying position.Benteen at Reno's position 10 minutes sooner opened up a few possibilites.
Just reading Martin's description of his ride back to Benteen you can see he was a troubled man. |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 18 2005 : 7:14:31 PM
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wILD,
Sorry, pal, can't buy it. I don't see how Calhoun and Keogh were holding anything, other than their crusifixes. In fact, we don't really know whether their markers represent where they stood, or the end of their attempt to escape/fall back. It takes an incredibly overwhelming force to wipe out 200 mounted and well-armed men in "the time it takes a hungry man to eat his dinner."
I respect your opinions and enjoy your enthusiasm, yet I disagree. I think our core disagreement comes with whether Custer could have been saved or relieved at all. I don't believe he could have. In fact, I don't think the outcome would have changed an iota had both Reno and Benteen rode to the rescue in full force. As I've written, the Indians were not going to scatter and run. It would have been tactically impossible anyway. They were going to defend their families and loved ones to the death. They were pretty well-armed themselves. They had a 10-1, or better, advantage--probably 5-1 against the entire command. They were extremely pissed off. I'd even submit they could have won or stood off against Custer, Terry and Gibbon combined with the kind of numbers they enjoyed.
The Sioux and Cheyenne were better.
Anyway, I wish we could walk the field there together and talk it over. Perhaps a pint, or two, afterward....
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Bob Bostwick |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 19 2005 : 06:42:23 AM
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Heavyrunner
They had a 10-1, or better, advantage--probably 5-1 against the entire command.
Yes but you must take into consideration that that advantage in numbers was negated somewhat by the fact that they fought as individuals and were unable to use that advantage against unbroken troops.That numerical advantage increased greatly when Custer was off the board yet they could not take out Benteen.
Keogh and Calhoun held their organisation until Gall outflanked them.
In fact, I don't think the outcome would have changed an iota had both Reno and Benteen rode to the rescue in full force.
The whole point is that they simply hold their position which would have kept the Indians divided.
Reno was defeated because he ran.Custer was defeated because he ran.Both these forces were running when desaster struck.By pinning Gaul Custer might have the time and space to organise.Would this have prevented his massacre?Ihave no idea.
There is a slight chance I might get to the field this year but there is a 7 hour flight across the pond which I hate and then a further 5 hour flight.And I 'm told that other than the LBH there is nothing else in Montana. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 19 2005 : 10:34:31 AM
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I don't live in Montana, but if there is a more beautiful state, yet to see it. Depending on time of year and if the drought continues, putter over to River Runs Through It country in the Mission Mountains. It would also be a good chance to see the diversity in Indian Reservations. Unless things have changed, some run a tight and wealthy ship and others, less so. You can follow Lewis and Clark along the Yellowstone, past Pompey's Pillar.
Moose, elk, deer, antelope, coyotes, buffalo almost guaranteed to be seen if you hike and camp or look out the window. Mt. sheep, goats, cougars, lynx, wolves, less so but entirely possible. No Sasquatch. I don't care what you've read.
Stand on sorta flat land and see the horizon for 360 degrees. Hear nothing but wind and birds and insects. Also, that scary light up there? Irish don't recognize it, but it's the sun of song and legend. Like, 320 days per year of it. It won't hurt you, honest, with precautions.
Even LBH on a clear day is spectacular. The view from LSH is awesome. It's only a little more than an hour drive down to Ft. Phil Kearny, Wagon Box, Fetterman field, others. Those are in Wyoming, a state bigger than Ireland or near it only with a half million people. Montana is bigger than the British Isles, I'm guessing, looking at two maps not in scale. As you know, I'm never wrong.
Four hour, five drive to Yellowstone Park and the Grand Tetons. Mountains more spectacular than the Alps. But the nearby Bighorns are simply lovely.
Hell, you're only hours away from the Black Hills, Deadwood, all that. Devil's Tower en route.
I've driven on double barrelled federal highways in Montana at safe and prudent speeds for hours and seen, maybe, a hundred vehicles and not unoften, none.
But, yeah, nothing to do except fish, hunt, hike, bike, paraglide, horseback trips, white water rafting, canoe....hardly anything.
I promise you'll love it. Just beautiful. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 19 2005 : 3:13:42 PM
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Well DC you have a soul after all.Perhaps if I can get Frank Spencer to do the driving.
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 19 2005 : 8:02:02 PM
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| By Jove, that was actually nice. An extremely positive narrative that produced a warm feeling. I'm flabbergasted!! |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 21 2005 : 12:46:17 PM
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WILD,
We'll disagree again. First of all, Reno was defeated not because he ran, but because he was overwhelmed. His retreat, however helter-skelter, saved the majority of his command. Custer was also overwhelmed at first contact. I certainly agree that Keogh and Calhoun were outflanked, but everyone there was outflanked. How long did that take, five or 10 minutes?
I'm sometimes frustrated (not by you) at the non-Indian perspective that Custer, et. al could have somehow won a victory at the Little Bighorn. The endless "what ifs" and debate over blame and responsibility tend, in my view, to miss the point.
And, among the points: Indian resolve. Indian ordnance. Indian mobility. Indian numbers.
Now, let's imagine a British force of say, 330, attacking your Irish village (or my American one) of 8,000--from two sides and two forces of 200 and 130. The defending citizenry is equally armed, equally mobile and the 3-4,000 men in it are fully aware that the Brits will kill their children, wives, mothers, aunts, uncles and dogs.
I don't think I need speculating on the result of that conflict. But, no man defending that village is going to run or scatter.
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Bob Bostwick |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 21 2005 : 3:33:36 PM
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We'll disagree again. First of all, Reno was defeated not because he ran, but because he was overwhelmed.
No we don't disagree Heavyrunner just a different emphasis.Reno was overwhelmed when he ran.The entire system/cohesion/defence broke down when he ran.Remember he had not suffered any heavy casualties until he ran and his decision making was not helped by having Bloody Knifes brains splashed all over him.If he had stayed he would have been overwhelmed unless support arrived.Of course he was not to know that Benteen was approaching.
I'm sometimes frustrated (not by you) at the non-Indian perspective that Custer, et. al could have somehow won a victory at the Little Bighorn. The endless "what ifs" and debate over blame and responsibility tend, in my view, to miss the point.
Again I agree.I don't know if you have read McClernand's On Time for Disaster or Peter Panzeri Little Big Horn 1876 or even Grays Custer's Last Campaign but these "experts" have Custer who couldn't find his way across a river fighting rearguards,counter attacking,in fact they have Custer performing more moves than the Bolshoi Ballet.
I don't think I need speculating on the result of that conflict. But, no man defending that village is going to run or scatter.
It is a mystery to me where Custer got the idea that they would not fight.There is a whole lexicon of terms to describe them.Warriors,Braves,hostiles,war chiefs,They had chopped up Fetterman and Kidder and delivered a check to the US army in the Bozeman trail campaign.They had counter attacked at the Wa****a and provided Elliot with his expected coffin.And come to think of it Terry did offer him gatling guns.I wonder what for? |
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MTC: Basic Theories
