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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - October 29 2003 : 01:36:00 AM
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You misread. Or something. I didn't say they had celebrations that required the shooting of guns on the afternoon of June 25; hence, the necessity of ending your quote of me where you did. Legal training, I guess.
I said there were celebrations that necessitated the shooting of guns, and in my thought thread indicated that hearing guns go off a ways away wouldn't necessarily indicate 'attack' to the majority of the camp even if they heard it. All testimony for their celebrations that night proves one point about the use of guns as party toys, and the fact the camp didn't seethe and react as one to Reno's shots proves the other.
I don't buy that significant numbers of warriors were asleep at 3 in the afternoon, no. I doubt any nomadic camp in history four days after the year's longest could say that ever. This is gathered to justify a perhaps bad translation of a perhaps misunderstood statement allegedly made by Custer in a puzzling vernacular within hearing of someone whose English could politely be called tender. Custer, if he said it, could have been commenting on the fact that they had gotten so close without serious resistance: 'we caught them napping' which through the years has acquired the necessity of saying the Indians were actually asleep.
The supporting testimony from the Indians (rather, the supporting testimony from translators whose actual ability and agenda we have no competence to judge)indicates that some Sans Arc girls were having a dance the previous night, and some guys went and some didn't. While any teenager is perfectly able to roll over and sleep all day, it is unlikely that sort of thing would be allowed en masse. You'll note some of the Indians thought the soldiers came mid morning, possibly in response to early reports from the East that didn't jell. It's possible that those early reports got conflated into the actual assault hours later. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 29 2003 : 05:37:19 AM
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| There's no evidence that Custer was discovered because of dust, bugles or any other sign. And until you prove to me that you can be in the Wolf Mountains, blowing several bugles and be heard miles away on the Little Big Horn, I await further evidence that Custer just got lucky by not being discovered. You basically say either the Indians were all too confident to care about Custer or too negligent to see/hear/read the signs of his imminent arrival. Maybe if this camp of thousands of men, woman, children and horses was quiet as a mouse pissing on cotton, but not with all the noise this small village would be making, not to mention the topography affecting the sound and visibility. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Halmyers
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 29 2003 : 12:35:56 PM
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Hi Folks,
I have a LBH dicussion group made up of 17 young college
students that find your messages to the board very interesting.
They have asked me to put some questions to the board. And folks
if you think your discussions become heated, you should be
a part of this group.
#1. When in the MTC area, Capt Tom Custer sent Sgt Kanipe with
a message from the commander to Capt McDougall to bring up the
packs. Was Lt Cooke aware that this message had been sent to
Capt McDougall.
#2. When Martin was sent with the message to Capt Benteen, if
Cooke knew a message was sent to McDougall and the pack train.
why did he not just send a message to Benteen to "Come Quick-
Big Village. Did this message to Benteen from Cooke hamper
Benteens movements in supporting Custer more quickly.
#3 Why did Custer keep moving northward leaving open avenues of
approach to the indians such as MTC and Deep Coulee, allowing
the indians to cut off any support going to Custer.
#4 If Benteen had come up quicker less the pack train. Would
he have gone to the support of Custer, or would he have still
supported Maj Reno.
#5 Was the message sent to Benteen indicate in any shape or
form that Benteen was to go to the support of Custer. In the
book "Troopers with Custer" pg-89. Benteen says the order to
him did not indicate his cooperation. True or false.
#6 Also in "Troopers with Custer" pg-91, Benteen says an order
to the pack train was not an order to him. Understandable, but
did his order not say "Bring Packs" And once again if he dis-
missed that part of the order, why did Benteen not move to the
support of the command more quickly.
Thanks to all of you and we are looking forward to your comments
Hal |
Thanks
Hal Myers |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 29 2003 : 3:49:58 PM
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Crab, you're being unnecessarily dense. When Custer was told the Sioux had seen him in the Wolf Mt.'s, he ordered bugles and all that to be used. I'm not claiming the bugles reached twenty miles, I'm saying they weren't trying to be quiet, there were Indians about all over the place behind him, in front, at his flanks and Custer assumed that they had rushed to the village to alert it. Reasonable.
There was a HUGE dust cloud, Indians had groups out, and nothing was reported in time if at all to the war chiefs before the attack that we know of. If they were told, they didn't react, so either way.....
Regarding the college crowd, those are good questions. It prompts another. Did anyone OTHER than Tom Custer send Kanipe back? Martin doesn't seem to mention him. Did the GENERAL know Kanipe had been sent, never mind Cooke? Tom had already overstepped his bounds at the Wolf Mts. It's sort of odd that only ten or fifteen minutes separate two essentially identical commands. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 29 2003 : 3:56:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Halmyers
#1. When in the MTC area, Capt Tom Custer sent Sgt Kanipe with
a message from the commander to Capt McDougall to bring up the
packs. Was Lt Cooke aware that this message had been sent to
Capt McDougall.
I'd be surprised if he didn't.
quote:
#2. When Martin was sent with the message to Capt Benteen, if
Cooke knew a message was sent to McDougall and the pack train.
why did he not just send a message to Benteen to "Come Quick-
Big Village. Did this message to Benteen from Cooke hamper
Benteens movements in supporting Custer more quickly.
Benteen didn't even try to communicate with the pack train, so no, it didn't hamper his movements. Since Cooke asked Benteen to "bring packs," he probably wanted Benteen to do something about the packs. I don't think it necessarily means that he wanted Benteen to take charge of them and personally escort them all to the front. But I do think Custer probably wanted Benteen to take some responsibility for them; this might have meant nothing more than seeing to it that a few packs got to the front asap. Or something else. Be content with the fact that we don't know exactly.
quote:
#3 Why did Custer keep moving northward leaving open avenues of
approach to the indians such as MTC and Deep Coulee, allowing
the indians to cut off any support going to Custer.
It has been suggested that he was pursuing the fleeing woman and children to the north, or that he was trying to draw off Indians from Reno. I don't find either of these explanations completely satisfactory, though I can't offer up one of my own. It seems like a very questionable move, and I'm doubtful of my ability to guess what Custer was thinking.
quote:
#4 If Benteen had come up quicker less the pack train. Would
he have gone to the support of Custer, or would he have still
supported Maj Reno.
The premise of your question is flawed, since Benteen didn't come "with" the pack train. That is a common misconception. Benteen and McDougall both operated independently, and no communication was ever made between them, even after Martin's note.
quote:
#5 Was the message sent to Benteen indicate in any shape or
form that Benteen was to go to the support of Custer. In the
book "Troopers with Custer" pg-89. Benteen says the order to
him did not indicate his cooperation. True or false.
True, in that it doesn't say "Come to me, Custer, and only me". The most natural sense of the message is that Benteen should hurry up to the village so he can get engaged in the battle. That doesn't imply support of any particular individual.
quote:
#6 Also in "Troopers with Custer" pg-91, Benteen says an order
to the pack train was not an order to him. Understandable, but
did his order not say "Bring Packs" And once again if he dis-
missed that part of the order, why did Benteen not move to the
support of the command more quickly.
For some reason, Benteen set and kept a very slow pace to the battlefield. If Benteen really felt that the "bring packs" part of the message was not directed to him, then he should have sent Martin along to McDougall instead of instructing him to fall in line and rejoin his company. Either way, Benteen's failure to communicate with McDougall after the message probably represents a lapse in judgement, though in the big picture it turned out to be pretty much irrelevant.
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 29 2003 : 4:31:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Regarding the college crowd, those are good questions. It prompts another. Did anyone OTHER than Tom Custer send Kanipe back? Martin doesn't seem to mention him. Did the GENERAL know Kanipe had been sent, never mind Cooke? Tom had already overstepped his bounds at the Wolf Mts. It's sort of odd that only ten or fifteen minutes separate two essentially identical commands.
According to Kanipe, Tom told him that the orders "had just been issued by General Custer" (Graham, pg. 249).
R. Larsen
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 29 2003 : 5:41:14 PM
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Kanipe did say that......and Kanipe was probably told that. But this was the Tom Custer who brought the troops forward at the Wolfs that morning to his brother's annoyance, not order, although younger brother may have implied that to get people to whom he had no authority otherwise to respond.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - October 30 2003 : 3:25:03 PM
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A response to a couple of the questions:
the packs - it is my impression that Custer was requesting extra ammunition and not the pack train itself. The note is ambiguous in many respects.
Benteen to aid Custer or Reno? - the note is unclear here too. Reno was told he would be supported by "the whole outfit." This could mean Benteen as well. However the note was from Custer's aide Cooke.
Even if Benteen had aided Reno in the valley (had he gotten there sooner), then Custer would have had a a very good chance to capyure much of the village. However, at Wa****a, he captured the non-combatants but had a hell of a time trying to move them with hundreds of angry warriors nipping at his flanks. here, a total bloodbath would probably have resulted. However, if Custer, upon invasion of the village, had reunited with Reno and Benteen, he might have tried to drive the village into Terry as per the "plan." But this is all speculation.
In a court of law, the bias of a witness is a relevant matter. Anything Benteen says must be viewed through a lens taking that into account.
- why move north? - look at the geography. A couple of years ago, I went down to the ford at MTC. Looking south, toward where Reno was, there is a huge "bottom" that can accomodate hundreds of warriors comming from Reno to Custer. (In fact, some sources say that one tribe had camped on the "trooper" side of the river bottom).
So, if Custer had two companies (hypothetical), E and F or E and C, depending on source, at MTC ford, they would have been driven north by the warriors in the bottom. The geometry of drawing a straight line from the direction of Indian pressure indicates that. Also, after Reno retreated, the south bluffs produced hostile fire. Custer had to move south with the other three companies to assist the safe retreat of the companies in question. To move the other way would have abandoned them to their deaths.
Finally, the geography is relevant in another way. Assume that the way back to Reno hill was the geography as it was going toward last stand hill. It might have been possible then to "cover" the retreating companies while moving south - (and give them a chance to rejoin).
This is a "chance" factor that suddenly is decisive.
But this is all personal opinion. Happy arguing !!! |
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vet777a
Sargent
Status: offline |
Posted - October 30 2003 : 6:22:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by inwit
Finally, the geography is relevant in another way. Assume that the way back to Reno hill was the geography as it was going toward last stand hill. It might have been possible then to "cover" the retreating companies while moving south - (and give them a chance to rejoin).
If Custer did turn back at MTC and head south what good would it of done Reno? How far south would Custer have to go before he could ford the river and assist Reno? It makes me think that Custer had no idea that Reno's assault had stalled and formed into a scrimish line. If he did know that then why didn't the famous note say "Benteen come quick, support Reno we will attack the flank"? Or something to that effect. When Custer went down MTC I feel he thought Reno would be entering the village at that time. He perhaps thought that his move into the village from MTC was a tactic to draw more warriors away from Reno's charge. It was his support move. I, C and L would hit the north end of the village to capture squaws and children and the old. One company would be in reserve to wait for Benteen, either I, C or L.
I feel the key to the whole affair took place at the MTC ford crossing, and unfortunately all acounts of this differ like night and day from Indian accounts.
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2003 : 01:06:26 AM
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| It probably would have been faster to enter the village at MTC and move south if aiding Reno was the name of the game... |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2003 : 05:13:47 AM
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 vett and in wit: I think Custer sealed his own fate when he sent E and F down MTC. By this time I think he knew through Bouyer, who had come from Weir Point, that Reno's skirmish line had failed and was retreating into the timber, if not across the river. He chose to continue west and then north. Had he given ground and headed back towards SSR or Reno Hill, he eventually would've wound up with Reno and Benteen and the pack train. There's no doubt in my mind Benteen and/or Mc Dougal knew they were to bring up the packs with the ammo ASAP. The famous note was to Benteen, was from Custer or at his direction, and there was nothing ambiguous about it. He also had sent Knipe. Had Custer's vanity (or courage??) not gotten the best of him, he could've met up with Reno and Benteen and made his stand at Reno Hill, which was more defensible than LSH. The only flaw with this, as was pointed out to me by someone I'd mentioned this to, was that by the time they were repulsed at MTC, the Indians already were between Weir Point and MTC, so he couldn't go that way. But we don't know how many warriors would've been blocking his way, since I'd thought most of them came spilling across MTC. Could Custer have retreated and saved the day to fight another day? Surely if Reno and Benteen could hold out, reinforced with Custer's 200+ men they could have. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2003 : 06:27:19 AM
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I don't think a retreat to Reno Hill and reuniting the regiment would have been a defensive move. Granted, Reno's troops were badly mauled, but the fight was still young and the remaining soldiers under Reno could have guarded the train, freeing up 250 or so "fresh" troopers. The fight probably would be unwinnable at that point, but a draw would have been very possible. Also, the Sioux would be forced to go north, towards Terry and Gibbon with the 7th nipping at their rears.
As I said about the moving through the village, Reno's troops were much closer in proximity and rate of travel by going through the valley floor. If they still were in the timber or on the line when Custer approached MTC, it would have been much faster to ford and move through the village.
I am pretty confident that Custer knew of Reno's move to the timber. And I would guess he knew they had retreated across the river at some point. His possible movements downriver could be explained by a desire to salvage something from this fight. Its possible, from a high point, Custer could see Benteen on the main trail, approaching Reno's command. This might have been enough to convince him to gamble by moving north.
And I don't agree with DC's belief that Custer would be removed if he didn't win. Crook didn't win with a larger force. Clearly, after the campaign, it would be taken into account that the Army underestimated the Sioux numbers and willingness to fight. I would think they'd plan another campaign, possibly for winter, and let Custer and Crook at them again with better numbers. Besides, who would replace him? There weren't a lot of officers with any Plains experience. Custer wasn't the best Indian Fighter, but he at least had some success, however minor. And I think the most telling point for his not being removed was the original plan for Custer to lead the entire column from Fort Lincoln. He did piss off Grant, but he was still valuable. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2003 : 09:37:28 AM
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What other commanding officer - what other officer - had been convicted and sentenced for deserting his own troops and having others who deserted illegally murdered without a trial? What other officer had managed to annoy his own President so much he was removed from command a second time? What other officer was rumored to have abandoned parts of his command in Indian combat, and this right after being reinstated? What other regiment had such a high desertion rate? Your prejudices show if you address the desertion rate first or at all before answering the other resume items.
Custer was toast if he didn't make good on his last chance. He didn't run a good regiment, even if it did get baselessly great press. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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vet777a
Sargent
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2003 : 3:31:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
It probably would have been faster to enter the village at MTC and move south if aiding Reno was the name of the game...
I will grant you that. Faster and deadlier. I don't think two companies would of ever gotten through alive to Reno. So was MTC a 'feint', just to draw warriors away? Do you think that Custer wanted I, C and L to hit the North end of the village to prevent escape? Custer knew Terry and Gibbon were to the North but I don't think he wanted to share a victory at all
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vet777a
Sargent
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2003 : 5:16:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by frankboddn
Could Custer have retreated and saved the day to fight another day? Surely if Reno and Benteen could hold out, reinforced with Custer's 200+ men they could have.
Custer could of retreated back to Reno Hill at a dash with five companies. The Indians may have parted seeing such a large force coming at them. He probably would of lost as many as Reno did in the valley though. Would he of 'saved the day'? No. Just his life and some troopers lives. Would he command again? I doubt it. I think he would of been court-martialed had he lived. His death was punishment enough. Grant would of been in fits as he was anyway. The blame would of fallen on Custer because Gibbon, Terry and Brisbin and Benteen plus Reno would of all testified to Custers disobediance of orders. Mainly to save their butts. Custers statements from the meeting at the Far West till the 25th would of been enough to ruin him forever. Then who leads the campaign? "too shy" Terry.."Limpy" Gibbon..or "Goose Creek" George? You raise a good question and inspire different thought.
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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2003 : 6:10:49 PM
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The possibility remains that things might have transpired in a way the retreat was impossible for Custer without the abandonment of a significant portion of his command. If so, then he was entirely at the mercy of the Reno/Benteen command - if they did not act with energy then he was doomed.
I think there is much to be said for this. IF RENO ALLOWED HUNDREDS OF WARRIORS TO CONCENTRATE ON CUSTER THEN HE MIGHT HAVE HAD NO OPPORTUNITY TO RETREAT TOWARD THE SOUTH.
Probably he could have united all 5 companies together, but was anticapating Benteen comming so that he could still drive the Indians north.
When it became clear that no help was comming, it was too late.
He was facing a specific concrete situation, and any evaluation of his decision-making must place him in such a specific, concrete context. |
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vet777a
Sargent
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2003 : 6:22:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by inwit
I think there is much to be said for this. IF RENO ALLOWED HUNDREDS OF WARRIORS TO CONCENTRATE ON CUSTER THEN HE MIGHT HAVE HAD NO OPPORTUNITY TO RETREAT TOWARD THE SOUTH.
So are you saying that Reno knew Custer was in big trouble from the very beginning. And if he just sat still on the bluffs in a defensive position he would be allright until Terry arrives...and basically.."the hell with Custer"? |
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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2003 : 7:01:49 PM
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No, Reno's actions allowed the Indians to go downstream. I don't think Reno was thinking very analytically after his adventure on the valley floor.
Later he might have thought "let Custer fend for himself." |
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vet777a
Sargent
Status: offline |
Posted - November 01 2003 : 5:14:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by frankboddn
Had Custer's vanity (or courage??) not gotten the best of him, he could've met up with Reno and Benteen and made his stand at Reno Hill, which was more defensible than LSH.
frankboddn: When you bring this point up I question the ability of calvary to make a strong defensive stand. It is not in their make-up, nor Custers. If Custers men and Benteens men and Renos men were all on the hill (Reno Hill), then all of the warriors would of been attacking that hill in force. Could they of held out until the 27th? The reason Forsyth could hold out at Beechers island was because of disciplined, heavy firepower. Everytime the Cheyenne charged they were met with hails of bullets, dropping warriors and ponies and eventually Roman Nose. But most of these men were not soldiers except for Forsyth and Beecher and a Sgt. I believe. They were frontiersmen knowing how to lay out firepower when needed. How well was the calvary trained to fight a battle like that? I believe I read that the soldiers were only issued 20 rounds per year for target practice. I think it was in Mincho's book that Lt. Godfrey was quoted as saying that "fire discipline-the ability to control and direct, accurate, aimed fire will decide every battle.....Fire is everything, the rest is nothing." Would the calvary have this discilpne with hordes of warriors crashing down on them waving blankets and blowing eagle bone whistles? |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 03 2003 : 05:41:35 AM
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If they were unwilling to try and overrun a 350-man position, the warriors certainly would not have tried the same position with 200 more soldiers...
If the 7th had reunited, they probably would have went back on the offensive and a running fight may have ensued as the village tried to move north, away from the cavalry. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 03 2003 : 2:41:00 PM
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El Crab, I think had Custer reunited with Reno and Benteen on Reno Hill, the Indians wouldn't have attacked. They might've made harassing attacks, but I can't see them attacking as they did Crook eight days yearlier. Had Custer lived to fight another day, what would've happened? Hell if I know If the Indians knew of Terry's approach from the north, Custer and his 500+ men to the southeast, and maybe Crook approaching from the south--I don't know what they knew of Crook's whereabouts--they wouldn't have stuck around. Just because Custer failed on the 25th doesn't mean had he rejoined Reno and Benteen, maybe the initial plan still could've worked. How quickly could the Indians had gotten away and how fast, with their entire village, been able to move? I'd think they'd have split up and gone separate ways. That's a hell of a large village, with maybe 20,000 horses to get away en masse. So let's forget for a moment Custer's actual fate. I'd like to know what y'all think would've happend had Custer survived with most of his men intact. What would've happened over the next few days when Terry arrived? Let me know your own scenarios, please. |
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vet777a
Sargent
Status: offline |
Posted - November 07 2003 : 1:26:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by frankboddn
I'd like to know what y'all think would've happend had Custer survived with most of his men intact. What would've happened over the next few days when Terry arrived? Let me know your own scenarios, please.
frankboddn: I will try to give you two of my ideas or scenarios.
1. If Reno's charge was successful and E and F made it into the village from MTC then I feel the south half of the village would of been secured. If the plan was for C,I and L to hit the north end of the village and cature or kill the fleeing then perhaps the campaign would of been a sucess for Custer. With a village that size, of course, some would escape. They could not run west for too much because they would be 'smack dab' in Crow country. The escape would have to be to the east and down into the Powder river country, then breaking up into smaller bands. The escape south to the Tongue River and Big Horn area as they did do would probably not be as successful for the retreat would of been cut off. Custer would of even become a greater hero to the folks back east and who knows what the convention in '76' would of been like?
2. If Reno's charge went exactly as it did and E and F were turned away as they were then according to your question I would think the Custer retreats south the Reno Hill to re-group. The Indians had no qualm about attacking Crooks 1100 plus troops. They also felt it was a victory. I feel that stopping Crook was a victory. Why would they hesitate to attack Custers 600 on Reno Hill? They were feeling full of themselves because of the fight with Crook. Because of that what would change their attitude about attacking Reno's position on the hill in full force? This would also give them time to escape to the south as they did and the east. I feel it would of been a grueling fight with a lot ammunition expended by the 7th. Custer would not of been able to move against them as Crook could not. I feel it would of turned out another disappointment to the War Department and Washington. Would Custer get another chance after that? I don't know. It would depend on Terry's mind frame at the time he arrived on the 27th. And, what was in his report.
Those are just two scenarios as you asked for some. Others may have totally different views and I as you would like to hear them. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 07 2003 : 2:54:45 PM
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In Custer's one (1) attack on an Indian village previous to this he outnumbered them. Even so, he only got about 130 dead of all ages and both genders plus a not huge number of captives; most warriors escaped, apparently. That was with the united Seventh in a planned dawn strike in freezing winter. Why is it still trotted out as remotely possible that he could now, with less men in piecemeal fashion, attack an alert larger village (perhaps much, much larger....)at high summer at midday and have a plausible chance at success?
And if C I and L were to attack the north end and get the women, why weren't they moving? IF Custer was on attack, his only chance was as close to a simultaneous attack by all he had as possible. These scenarios are too gothic and complicated, not stigmata of Custer in command.
Martin said his last sight of Custer's five companies was of Indians waving blankets and shooting from the point he had just been. I think Custer was wounded, and it was a confused rout north and the officers were never able to sort out command, not that it mattered. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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ABridgeTooFar
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - January 11 2004 : 12:40:15 PM
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Hi. I am new to this forum. I would like to offer my theory as to what really happened at Medicine Tail Coulee. Please feel free to comment if you disagree.
Custer had promised Reno that his attack would be "supported by the entire outfit". The only way he could fufill that promise was to attack with all five companies under his personal command, ford the river and enter the village. The theory proposed by Gray, that Custer attacked with only E and F companies and left the other three companies behind at Luce ridge, is absurd. Luce ridge ia a mile and a half away from the ford, too far away to offer fire support. It makes no sense whatsoever to leave three out of five companies in reserve, idle and doing nothing. Nor is there any evidence for Gray's contention that Custer went up to Weir Point to survey the village before the attack. Martin did not see him there, and neither did the four Crow scouts who escaped. The support promised to Reno had to be prompt if it were to be meaningful, and Custer's attack must have been launched while Reno was still fighting in the valley, either in the skirmish line or in the woods.
The attack by Custer's men across the ford failed, not because of the existence of an uncrossable bog, but because of stiff resistance of the Sioux and Cheyenne on the other side of the river. Not only did they halt the Seventh Cavalry's attack, but they crossed the river themselves and drove them back.
Custer's only logical course of action was now to retreat south, falling back on Reno, Benteen and the pack train. At this point there was no reason to go any further north now that the element of surprise had been lost and the battle was underway. Custer's men, mounted and under heavy fire, must have retreated, first east to Nye-Cartwright ridge, and then south to Luce ridge. It is along this path that the body of Sgt. Butler of L company was later found, along with many expended cartridges.
A large body of warriors in the vicinity of Luce ridge must have blocked any further advance to the south. Custer's only logical course of action was now to make a stand. Perhaps feeling that the ground here was unsuitable, Custer now must have led his men north, retracing their steps up Nye-Cartwright ridge, and then further on to Calhoun ridge and the battlefield, which would account for the trail of expended ammunition along this path.
This is about the only explanation of Custer's movemnts from Medicine Tail Coulee to the battlefield that makes any sense to me. Can anyone offer any better alternatives?
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Wrangler
Lieutenant
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Posted - January 11 2004 : 2:29:01 PM
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Hello ABTF,
quote:
Originally posted by ABridgeTooFar
The attack by Custer's men across the ford failed, not because of the existence of an uncrossable bog, but because of stiff resistance of the Sioux and Cheyenne on the other side of the river. Not only did they halt the Seventh Cavalry's attack, but they crossed the river themselves and drove them back.
As a potential scenario, what you have presented up to here is plausible for consideration. I would offer that you don't have to restrict yourself at this point on the motivation that the crossing failed due to stiff resistence. The set of motivations could be expanded to include "we are receiving some fire from across the river and crossing the river in a column of companies under fire doesn't sound like a good idea right now...let's try a little further north." Or, "looks like alot of Indians [pony herds and families] are moving North. If we cross here, we just continue to squirt them to the north..." With this expansion, the scenario is less susceptible to conflicting Indian testimony about the level of action at Ford B.
quote:
Originally posted by ABridgeTooFar
Custer's only logical course of action was now to retreat south, falling back on Reno, Benteen and the pack train. At this point there was no reason to go any further north now that the element of surprise had been lost and the battle was underway.
Concur.
quote:
Originally posted by ABridgeTooFar
Custer's men, mounted and under heavy fire, must have retreated, first east to Nye-Cartwright ridge, and then south to Luce ridge. It is along this path that the body of Sgt. Butler of L company was later found, along with many expended cartridges.
A large body of warriors in the vicinity of Luce ridge must have blocked any further advance to the south. Custer's only logical course of action was now to make a stand. Perhaps feeling that the ground here was unsuitable, Custer now must have led his men north, retracing their steps up Nye-Cartwright ridge, and then further on to Calhoun ridge and the battlefield, which would account for the trail of expended ammunition along this path.
I would offer this for your consideration. Let's put on our war bonnets for a second. Five companies came down MTC and for whatever motivation have moved to NCR. From Ford B (looking east), the ravines of Deep Coulee and MTC form a "V" with the NCR at the top. It would seem if we wanted to get at those guys, we would go up both legs of the "V". If an equal number of Indians go up the coulees, and the 7USC wants to get south, then it is logical to proceed to Luce Ridge. Now we have the "V" formed by North MTC and MTC. If an equal number of Indians go up these coulees and our friends from the first split are now coming over NCR to reinforce the effort in North MTC, then there are more Indians to the North versus the South. Why doesn't the 7th continue to go south towards the remainder of the regiment? Or just sit tight because there are too many Indians?
quote:
Originally posted by ABridgeTooFar
This is about the only explanation of Custer's movemnts from Medicine Tail Coulee to the battlefield that makes any sense to me. Can anyone offer any better alternatives?
I doubt the following alternative is any better than yours but I'll give it a try. Given a scenario where all five companies remain together as postulated, and, in order to account for cartridges postulated as being fired by the 7USC on 25 June on Luce Ridge, and NCR, then let's say the regiment pursues some alleged Indians previously spotted on the bluffs from MTC to Luce to NCR. Having delt with the alleged Indians to their satisfaction, the five companies then head down to Ford B, are motivated not to cross and then head north. I can't advocate that either of our scenarios are the most probable, but it is fun thinking about it.
Your thoughts?
v/r
Wrangler |
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MTC: Basic Theories
