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JakeW
Private
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - October 06 2004 : 11:48:08 AM
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dave, cool bit of info there. Thanks for postin it.
WildI, don't pay much heed to Warlords insults. I'm beginning to wonder on his IQ/maturity level. It appears that he gets no enjoyment out of this board, yet he keeps returning to throw insults.
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Now to Jake, Oh Jake, I thought you were a grown up! I was packing guns for the government about 25 years before your mommy gave you your first bottle of milk! You are not old enough to even buy a drink! Where did you get that Colt, from your daddy's desk. What do you use it for, to chase southern degenerates away from following you in the Texas bushes? I was going to make a nasty remark about being called a liar again, and then you followed up with a posting of about three paragraphs talking about you only carry 5 cartridges. Just what I told you in one sentence!!! I should have known from that kind of immaturity something was wrong! But then I discovered about you being a baby, it is a waste of time! You believe there is slight risk of discharge from a fully loaded Single Action Army? Here is a test you can run. Load your Daddy's Colt with 6 big one's, Corbon preferably! Stick it in the front of your pants. Now smartly rap the hammer. Let me know how that one comes out! Maybe the Texas girls will have less to worry about if you follow instructions!
Wow, someone was surely in a grumpy mood early this morning. I seriously have my doubts about our government if they had such an insecure individual walking about with a CCW. You cannot even keep your cool on a message board, which has been demonstrated time and time again.
All in all, your post gave me a good laugh, and did entertain me. As for my "Daddy's Colt", hehe, it's actually a Cimmaron model. Colt's recent products seem to be of lower and lower quality, while their prices continue to climb. I actually acquired it through a cousin who was having financial troubles and needed to sell off some arms. Personally, I have VERY little use for handguns at all. In my opinion their only use is for defense, and I make most of my living by helping a New Mexico outfitter to guide hunter's or doing gunsmith work in town.
Cor-bon....naww, I prefer Buffalo-Bore. Only times I carry the weapon is when we've packed back into bear country, and I have no qualms paying the heavier price for the Buffalo rounds. Personally, I'd rather not ever use it or one of my rifles while guiding. The hunter is there to hunt and hopefully take an animal, not me.
As for the rest of your long winded, immature post. If you will scoll up the page a bit, you'll already see that you just got done repeating an entire conversation that had already concluded. Sorry, but you arrived a bit late.
You don't think a trooper would slide the 6th cartridge into their cylinder when going into immediate battle? Okay, have it your own way. And I don't know if you carry your CCW down the front of your pants, maybe you just enjoy the feeling of cold steel? Most troopers of the time carried their revolvers in flap holsters riding on their hip.
Yeah, I'm 20 and it really has me dismayed that I guess every once in a while, the whole older doesn't mean wiser thing, actually rings true.
If you would like to continue your personal attacks on my age or perhaps my livelihood next, PM me. I have no wish to take up space on this board arguing with the likes of you.
Jake
P.S. If by "Southern Degenerates" you mean illegal Mexicans....perhaps you should look at a map and see where Stephenville is located. We've got more to be concerned about, with Okies invading our borders. 
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"We've Caught 'em Napping Boys!" - Custer's Last Phrase |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 06 2004 : 12:02:36 PM
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Come on, Wild. I have made and make no pretense of such knowledge, whether I have it or not. You claimed to be a soldier, and a soldier would/should have known that. You didn't. I don't see how a double action revolver with the hammer down on an empty chamber is much more likely to be cocked and fired by a pulled trigger if the pistol drops than by manually pulling back the hammer, myself. So it's as safe, in my eyes.
Never claimed pacifism. What are you talking about?
I understand field and staff and the safety of the manuals. It makes no sense for the guy who is controlling everything in relatively large scale actions involving four "commands" miles apart to forego his responsibilities to the success of the campaign and needlessly participate in action for no constructive reason. Absent staff officers, staff/command/communication responsibilities still exist, and LBH is testimony to failure to acknowledge this. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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alfuso
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - October 06 2004 : 12:35:34 PM
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MRW wrote: (edited for brevity)
Jake: from what I have read (and for the life of me, I cannot remember the source--perhaps "Custer Victorious" or "Riding With Custer") GAC did often go into battle with horse reins between his teeth, shooting with great accuracy from both hands. Of course, he might have been the exception. What IS strange is that at the Realbirds' re-enactment--at least the last two years--it is insisted that GAC was LEFT handed. I've seen at least one photo of him writing--and it is clear that he is right handed. Could the "left-handed" interpretation come from seeing him shoot with either hand?
Just a couple of points.
And Lorenzo--it is good to have you back!
Regards,
[/quote]
From what I recall reading, Custer was seen in the Civil War on an occasion with sword in one hand and revolver in the other, reins in teeth.(specifically, a letter tells of the author seeing the men of the Michigan Brigade going by with prisoners and Custer following in this pose and saluting people watching from a fence) I can't recall ever reading of him holding a revolver in each hand let alone riding and firing. And certainly not into battle.
Alfuso
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Deny Everything
Prepare to Panic |
Edited by - alfuso on October 06 2004 12:50:53 PM |
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JakeW
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 06 2004 : 1:08:09 PM
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Alfuso, you may very well be correct about Custer goin in with reins clenched, sixguns blazing. What I was actually referring to were the troopers of the 7th, some who were barely able to stay mounted during Reno's hell beent for leather charge down the valley.
As most know, the 7th was not an elite fighting force. Inadequatly trained, but, as I believe, adequatly armed.
Custer was truly the exception, as this IS what he lived for. It would not suprise me to hear that he was ambidextrous, as athletic as he was for his whole life.
As for him being lefthanded, I really have no idea. Could it be something like the myth that Billy the Kid was a lefty? Then come to find out, the photographs of the time showed the exact reverse of what was being seen. Thus William H. Bonnie was actually a rightie.
Jake |
"We've Caught 'em Napping Boys!" - Custer's Last Phrase |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 06 2004 : 4:26:13 PM
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Come on, Wild. I have made and make no pretense of such knowledge, whether I have it or not. You claimed to be a soldier, and a soldier would/should have known that. You didn't.
DC You state you have no knowledge of the subject and then go on to make a judgement on my knowledge of the subject.Very "previous" of you.So to set you straight.The safety precautions described by Jake and Co are used to render the weapon safe if it falls.What I had in mind [if you have any thoughts on this Jake they are welcome]was a situation where the hammer snaged in a piece of equipment,the hammer was drawn back and then released.Now if the action went through the full cycle it would put a loaded chamber under the hammer and the weapon would discharge.Or the weapon might become cocked and if the handler was not aware of this you have a very dangerious situation.Thus I believe that it is safer to have the next chamber empty.
I understand field and staff and the safety of the manuals. It makes no sense for the guy who is controlling everything in relatively large scale actions involving four "commands" miles apart to forego his responsibilities to the success of the campaign and needlessly participate in action for no constructive reason.
in Napolionic warfare such as the civil war, battles can turn on one action[defence of the Little Round Top]And very often such as Lee's action at the Wilderness the very presence of the commanding general has an enormous influence on the troops.[which is of course constructive]
As most know, the .7th was not an elite fighting force. Inadequatly trained, but, as I believe, adequatly armed
If the Indians were armed with repeating rifles then I don't think adequatly armed would be the right description.
GAC did often go into battle with horse reins between his teeth
I hope he was mounted at the time. |
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JakeW
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 06 2004 : 5:39:48 PM
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Wild, yes the hammer snagging on a piece of equipment with enough force to rotate the cylinder would be a dangerous situation indeed, no doubt about it.
These are my beliefs on why I think the Troopers were adequatly armed at the time. Mine only, as I have no source with me to verify any of this.
The ballistics of the 44-40 (general cartridge of the time for repeaters), was a joke! The trajectory of the bullet can be seen pretty much by tossing a grapefruit out in front of you. It's actually a pistol cartridge, used in a rifle. If targets were 100 yards and under, you bet I'd want a Winchester 73, 66, or even an old Henry before the trapdoor. For distanced firing, (much of which went on at the little bighorn), the 45-70, or in this case the 45-55 would be the more preferred choice. By reducing the powder charge to 55, it took away some of the long range advantage, but not all.
The 1873 Colt's on the other hand, I'm not so sure about. At a time when Smith and Wesson had developed in my opinion, the premier cavalry sidearm of the day, the army decided to stay with the colts. Not a bad weapon by any means, but much slower reloading than the S&W.
I believe one of their reasons for this was the fact that the S&W took a shorter .45 cartridge than was used in the Colts. They were compatible with the Colt revolvers, but if a shipment of .45LC got sent to the troopers with S&W pistols, they were in trouble.
As I said, these are only my opinions on the matter. Anyone else, feel free to shoot 'em down.
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"We've Caught 'em Napping Boys!" - Custer's Last Phrase |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 06 2004 : 10:36:39 PM
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Lorenzo, I have said this before and I will say it again. Your posts were the most sensitive, appreciated, and heart felt revelations on this forum. Despite a present denial, a very small minority attacked you and ridiculed your statements. You fought back with intensity and courage.
Unable to fully comprehend the idioms, phrases, and subtleties of an alien language, you faltered under a barrage of insensitive retorts. I wonder how your antagonists would have fared while attempting to present their feelings and desires before an Italian tribune.
I hope you come back Lorenzo. I miss your posts. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on October 06 2004 10:39:57 PM |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - October 07 2004 : 12:33:49 AM
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| Jake: No real arguement, but a couple of points. The Henry and Winchester 66 used rimfire cartridges with less than 30 grains of powder. I believe the '73 was Winchesters first center fire. Keep in mind that allthough the powder charge was lighter, the repeaters used bullets half the weight of the Springfield. So less energy at range but the trajectory was similiar to the 45/70 which wasn't so great either. As you said the S&W revolver was faster to reload than the Colt. The disadvantage was ejecting all your rounds if you accidentally opened it. |
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JakeW
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 07 2004 : 11:44:27 AM
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Well Warlord, I was by no means trying to impress you. As for Iraq or Afganastan, I've got two cousins over there at the moment that I would like to see get home quickly.
44-40 has taken more game than anything? Might be true. It's surely been around long enough to have accomplished it, but I'm sure it's a mighty close toss up between it and the 30-30. But, the 44-40 is nearly extinct in the factory ammo market today, while the 45-70 Govt. for hunting, is THRIVING.
Law Enforcement....maybe. Some departments around the area, Mesquite one of them, are starting to pay officers decently for a change. Border patrol, no way. Way too hot down that far south.
Polar, I can't argue with ya there. I believe a problem that had to be worked out with some Schofield models was that they could accidently break open, slinging your cartridges about. But as I believe, this was fixed rather quickly.
I'd be interested to hear what the civilian scouts with Custer carried. I believe Reynolds and Gerard carried a Henry and .50 cal Spencer. Other than that, I'm not too sure.
Jake |
"We've Caught 'em Napping Boys!" - Custer's Last Phrase |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 07 2004 : 4:07:06 PM
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| I believe Custer was armed with a Remington sporting rifle and two snub-nosed Irish constabulary pistols.Strange choice. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 09 2004 : 12:54:31 PM
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| Just glancing through a book here in my local bookshop on US cavalry on the plains and I came across a photo of a troop demonstrating volley firing on the skirmish line.And where was this firing taking place?Why on the LBH battle field.So much for so called battlefield finds. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 09 2004 : 2:10:27 PM
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Shocking Wild! Who would have thought it????!!!!!!! Wait, though. We'll be assured that the casings were picked up because manuals required the shooters to do so.
Of course they did. Who could doubt it? Nearly one hundred and thirty years of burials and ceremonies, picnic parties from the railroad, salting the field for souvenier hunters with titles, movies large and small, people screwing around with no witnesses passing by, Indians desecrating graves, whites shooting at targets. None of that happened, we're told.
It's really absurd the surety that people claim from the stuff found up there. Recall again that all these advances and firing lines and dance like moves of Custer's group are based upon configuring explainations for where shell casings were found bolstered by fifth-hand testimony from Indians in their seventh decade or older who might be telling the truth, but it is filtered through alleged translators, relatives, and PR mentalities to churn the 'mystery' angle for, well, profit from a remarkably gullible section of the population.
It drives me bananas, especially when all that's been "learned" at LBH is starting to be applied to other historical places. The claims made could only be true if it were a virgin or remotely virginal site. This is the Heidi Fleiss of dig sites, and no swab analysis in heaven will reveal the id of her first. Almost nothing can be learned from the stuff because there have been so many other things that happened here through the years, and I'd bet we don't know one percent of the activity that followed the battle.
People are so enamored of CSI type stuff they believe it without question. It's annoying and dangerous. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 09 2004 : 8:37:50 PM
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Harump.
Why would Harrington be using a .44? Wasn't the .45 the official pistol?
I hesitate to mention this because no doubt it will set off a debate about "throw weight" of the .44 being insufficient and therefore key to the dismal showing of the 7th.
Well. Despite my severe hesitations, it looks like a lot of fun and, for all I know, could all be totally true. I am, of course, glad that the 'evidence' suggests that the shambles on Weir Point was actually well fought back to Reno. Truly, I think Sharpshooter Hill would be the site to check. I wonder how many of Ryan's or French's shots landed on Custer land after missing their targets on Sharpshooter? Could have hit Nye Cartwright. Coulda. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 09 2004 : 8:55:58 PM
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Say, Wild. What rifles were being used in this demonstration? Winchesters? Better, Henrys? Winchesters firing Henry ammo? And they were firing from Henryville and environs, right? Also, there's a cadaverous arm holding a white flag of surrender emerging from the ground in the middle distance?
Just wondering if it's the same photo I have.... |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on October 09 2004 8:56:56 PM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 10 2004 : 09:11:23 AM
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| The troop have just discharged a volley so there's a lot of smoke about but the Springfield is unmistakeable. |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - October 10 2004 : 11:44:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Harump.
Well. Despite my severe hesitations, it looks like a lot of fun and, for all I know, could all be totally true. I am, of course, glad that the 'evidence' suggests that the shambles on Weir Point was actually well fought back to Reno. Truly, I think Sharpshooter Hill would be the site to check. I wonder how many of Ryan's or French's shots landed on Custer land after missing their targets on Sharpshooter? Could have hit Nye Cartwright. Coulda.
It was a lot of fun, D.C. You would've had a blast even if 20 other guys (and one great woman) were giving you a hard time about why battlefield archeology is the wave of the future. Everyone will be doing it, from sea to shining sea!!
I'd double-check my sources on the .44 vs. the .45 and Harrington, but I can't right now. My books are all boxed for a serious move at the end of the month. D.C., if you have time, would you double-check this for me. If I'm wrong, I'd like to correct it ASAP. If you don't have time, that's ok, I'll check later -- or send a note to Doerner.
As we dug along the road we all were drooling at the mouth wishing we could go just another 10 feet further from both sides. Of course, if we had, then we'd want to go 10 feet further still and on up to Sharpshooters Ridge!!
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 10 2004 : 2:03:55 PM
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Bhist,
I wouldn't have a clue on how to prove one way or the other what pistol Harrington carried. I do know I've only read that the Army pistol was a .45 unless I'm totally bonkers (I heard that...). My god, we have people here counting the powder load, surely others would know off the top of their head. Isn't the Springfield a .45 with 55 grains unless they use the rifle cartridge of 75 grain and the pistol was Colt Army .45?
But, in the event I'm correct (even money), what would you change? If it's a .44, it's a .44 and for all we know Harrington carried a .44, although why is an open question. Either way, nothing is at stake: you still cannot prove it was fired within that time frame.
Archaeology isn't the wave of the future but of the past. It's just being utililzed in new areas where nothing can be decided anyway. Whether it's actually still science and not fad for media exposure (non-mysteries 'solved' on live tv....) is to be seen. You cannot prove when these things were fired or appeared on the field. I can't prove they were not fired on June 25 in that key two hour period, but we can certainly show many reasons to doubt the virginity of anything up there, and therefore any conclusions deducted from them are as vaporous as that of any drunk's channelling of dead participants. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 10 2004 : 7:53:08 PM
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Okay. One of us has to reorient, here. This exchange is all based on Bhist's posting on the dig at his site per his posting here.
We're talking about Harrington's pistol, not Custer's rifle, and Bhist thought it was a .44. My recollection is that the standard cavalry pistol was .45, and Harrington's probably was as well. Ergo, a .44 bullet found probably wasn't fired by the cavalry or Harrington, although I suppose he could have brought his own. Some did. If Custer's was a .44, I suppose it could be his, but I thought it was a standard shell, not an individually gnawed casing from some Brit nobleman's stash with ribbon in the nobleman's crest, or whatever Custer carried.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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JakeW
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 10 2004 : 8:34:13 PM
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A .44 cal bullet could have been fired by the cavalry, or scouts I guess. If Harrington or another man owned a Remington 1875 revolver, this would have been entirely possible, although one begs the question, what advantage would be gained? Harrington should have been carrying his issue .45 Colt, but........
Jake |
"We've Caught 'em Napping Boys!" - Custer's Last Phrase |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - October 10 2004 : 10:02:48 PM
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| Unless he has some reason he hasn't stated, bhist must have been confusing the 44 and 45. He simply states that they found a complete .44 Colt cartridge, then goes on to state that was the kind of ammunition Lt Harrington would have used. |
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dave
Captain
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - October 11 2004 : 09:34:02 AM
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I would think that if the case is from a .44-40 then it was probably fired from a 1873 Winchester. AS far as I know, the first revolver to be chambered in .44-40 was the Colt Frontier which wasn't produced until 1878/9?.
However if its a .44 then there are a number of other possibilities:
.44 Henry used in Henry's, Yellowboys and some early Colt Peacemakers, 1872 Colt open tops and some (approx. 200) S&W No. 3's.
.44 S&W American used in the Colt and S&W No. 3
.44 Remington
.44 Merwin & Hulbert
Regarding Custer's personnel arms. Godfrey descibed Custer as carrying a pair of white handled Bulldogs. The Bulldog wasn't produced until 1878 (as far as I know). However he might have been carrying Model 1 or 2 Webley's. Trying to research British revolvers is a frustrating task, as there are so many variants, most undocumented. But it does seem that both models were concurrently in production prior to 1875 in a variety of calibres. The most common being .442 RIC and .450 Adams. Both are relatively anemic rounds.
It does seem a little perplexing that Custer would choose to use such an under-powered weapon, but the Webley's had the advantage of being double action, which must have been a significant plus when compared to using the SAA Colt from horseback. The mild recoil couldn't have harmed either. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 11 2004 : 10:30:29 AM
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Again: "Mike Clark found a 44 Colt fully loaded bullet – the kind of ammunition 2nd Lt. Henry Moore Harrington of Company C would have fired." From Bhist's posting about the supposed C position near Henryville.
Bhist, are you sure it was a .44? If so, what makes you think Harrington fired a .44 as opposed to the .45? Can that Colt ammo be used in other weapons than center fire pistols in 1876? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 11 2004 : 7:33:03 PM
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Hello, I must be going.
Long - long - story short, Bhist, I've only found mention of .45 calibre as the pistol ammo for the 7th except for Custer's whatever. For what, if anything, that's worth. If it was a .44 Colt, then I guess it's a cartridge dropped at some point by someone at the battle or not. I guess if you're sure it's a .44, what can we say? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Responsibility At Little Bighorn
