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Originally posted by AZ Ranger

Joe Here is my opinion. Reno moved down the valley after some running away Indians. Those Indians ran into a very large village full of Indians willing to fight. He dismounts and forms a skirmish line to accommodate them. The don't attack head on rather begin moving to flank the line. He swings the line to face them and they continue to circle around him. They move to the timber because the Indians are surrounding them and could get to the horses left in the timber.

One of his senior Sargent's, Ryan, tells his Company Commander, French, that if we don't get out of here now we will die here. While this is going on French tells Ryan it is Custer not the Indians but he was wrong. The Indians fire a volley into them killing a private.

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Ryan did in fact make the statement to French as you pointed out. This is because the actions of Reno resulted in the situation on the line to quickly deteriorate until is was, in fact, untenable. French was one of the few (if not the only) officer to stay on the line and not seek safety in the timber. The volley that resulted in death occurred in the park area in the approximate center of the timber area. The perimeter of the timber had been abandoned due to the non-existence supervision. Even then, the warriors immediately with drew after discharging their volley. Still, no military action was taken by the troopers other than ragged, no trumpet notification, scramble, every man for himself "charge."

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During this time Reno has walked through enough of the timber to decide that he, no one else can make that decision, does not feel they can defend it. He orders a retreat.

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Would it not have been better, as a commander, to stay with your men, encourage them through stalwart, visible leadership, then, perhaps, an experienced top sergeant to scout the woods? Or, post men around the perimeter to hold off the enemy while evaluating the situation. If the decision ti evacuate is then made, have your trumpeter order "recall" and "Charge."

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What some try to blame Reno for is the organization which in reality is the company commanders responsibility to organize their companies.
They exit the timber under fire and form up hastily drawing revolvers and begin to ride off at a gallop. The revolver has 6 shots and the Indians don't close until the revolvers are empty. There are trooper an Indian accounts describing exactly that occurring.
As they ride with empty revolvers the Indian close in an when they slow the close quarter battle begins. According to Ryan there is a lot of hand to hand combat with the troopers not doing so well.

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I hold Reno accountable for not utilizing a perfectly accessible and required tool of communication for relaying vital information that can not be heard through the tremendous "din" of combat;the trumpeter system. Here was the golden opportunity to inform the entire command, all together,of Reno's decision. Thus, extrication from the timber had, at least, a chance to have occurred in an orderly fashion which would have raised the odds of more men reaching safety.

As the soldiers burst through the timber, the Indians quickly withdrew from their front, in disorder and dismay, believing they were now under attack. As the troopers continued to dash by, warriors soon realized that an opportunity had suddenly arisen and pursued. Staying some fifty yards away, they pumped round after round into the troopers who, with valiant exceptions, did not return fire

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Cavalry troopers were small men and I believe lack close quarter battle skills. Most succeed to regroup at Reno Hill and the rest is history.

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I absolutely agree!

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So basically Reno decided to retreat at speed which is his choice. That speed is called a charge. Charges at speed spread the horses out if the distance is great. Ammunition runs out if a target rich environment exists and it over time. Now couple this with the troopers did little to no target practice horseback. The did little riding at a charge speed over distance. Some Indians believed they could be bullet proof and a poor marksman would convince they were bulletproof.

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I agree, speed is of the essence when charging;the faster the better.
However, speed or the absence of speed is not the determining factor that determines the viability and worth of a military movement. An "objective" does! What was the objective?, the goal of this so called "Charge?" To save men? They were shot down and pulled from their mounts while charging! To find a better defensive position? The timber was not surrounded by hills high elevation which allowed "Indian target practice" as Reno Hill did. Besides, when Reno led his "charge" he had no idea if he would locate a more suitable military position or not; he simply "charged."

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As far as covering the rear as they retreated that only works at speeds slower than a gallop with the Indians coming generally from one direction that being the rear. In this case the Indians surrounded them so no matter which way a rear guard faced they would have Indians to their flanks and rear. They also could not catch up to troopers riding as fast as their horses could travel. So if a company stops to fight before they get off their horses they would be swarmed and destroy if in small numbers. It happened to 3 companies that stopped at the river and it happened on Custer battlefield.

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Here's the deal AZ, men do not run because they panic, they panic because they run. This movement was a "run" to get away precipitated and the result of a lack of supervision and information as to what was actually happening. the majority of "G" troop where left behind, as were others, because no on took the time to make them aware of what was going on. The responsibility of a senior commander is tremendous as he has the lives of his men under his obligation.
Soldiers are trained to follow their officers and, in doing so, are inspired or devastated by leadership. quality leadership inspires heroes, Reno's leadership created cowards.

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So the problem or choice Reno made was a sacrifice of some troopers so the majority would survive to fight again. I believe he had to know that was going to happen. It gave Custer more than enough time to cross the river and attack those same Indians chasing Reno but for whatever reason Custer did not do that. I suspect to many Indians as the reason.

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Would it not have been something if Reno had remained in the timber for 20 minutes or less? The timber was much better fortified than the hill. Custer would have arrived within that time and Benteen soon after. If nothing else the end results would have turned out differently.

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Reno moved out just as Crazy Horse arrived and his observations of what he thought he had to ride through were changed at that point.

Basically I believe Reno made choices within the acceptability of the Cavalry or else they could have removed him. I believe he made previous statements that he would not die at that hand of Indians and that would indicate how much risk taking his decisions would take into account.

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A critical point that is often over looked is that the authorities could not remove Reno. To have done so would have been an admission that Reno behaved badly which would have reflected upon his superiors. The military leaders did not wish the truth to be known to a public already hostile toward an army perceived by them as containing nothing but vagabond, ruffians, and illiterates. That is why it became necessary to exonerate Reno and others for the betterment of the military. To have acknowledged the deplorable actions on that particular day would have led to national discretization. Those who knew the truth were either dead, ashamed of their personal participation, or stalwart individuals who placed the pride of the Corps. over their personal desires. these elements made a "cover-up" not only feasible but practical.

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I don't personally like Reno but I didn't like several of the officers that I served with either and followed their orders. This seems to me to a popularity contest whereby if you like the guy his decision were good and if you don't their decisions are drunks, cowards, and slackers.

[quote]Oddly enough,despite my stance, I do not dislike Reno. I pity him. On a certain day, at a specific time, he was called upon to do face death and was unable to muster the strength to pass muster. this does not not make him a monster. It makes him a human being. Sadly, however, due to the heavy responsibility placed upon his shoulders he was obligated to much more than he did. His addiction to alcohol robbed of what little determination he could resolve

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AZ Ranger

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Originally posted by AZ Ranger

Here's the deal AZ, men do not run because they panic, they panic because they run. This movement was a "run" to get away precipitated and the result of a lack of supervision and information as to what was actually happening. the majority of "G" troop where left behind, as were others, because no on took the time to make them aware of what was going on. The responsibility of a senior commander is tremendous as he has the lives of his men under his obligation.
Soldiers are trained to follow their officers and, in doing so, are inspired or devastated by leadership. quality leadership inspires heroes, Reno's leadership created cowards.


Joe a charge is done at a running speed in most cases. Your logic escapes me. Do you really think all retrogrades are done by cowards?

How dare you call Reno's men cowards.

You're a joke Joe

AZ Ranger

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Originally posted by waldo

Do you all agree that cover in the timber was better than Reno hill? Reno panicked and ran, and his men followed willy nilly? Would you rather fight from the timber or run to the high ground?

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Originally posted by AZ Ranger

Would it not have been better, as a commander, to stay with your men, encourage them through stalwart, visible leadership, then, perhaps, an experienced top sergeant to scout the woods? Or, post men around the perimeter to hold off the enemy while evaluating the situation. If the decision ti evacuate is then made, have your trumpeter order "recall" and "Charge."

No that is the company commanders job. Reno was to plan what to do next.

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Originally posted by Dark Cloud

There is no evidence that this was the "the greatest conglomeration of hostiles ever known." It was the biggest any of the survivors had seen, is all. Just like calling the Indians the world's greatest cavalry is bogus on its face, because nobody had seen even a meaningful plurailty of the world's military horsemen. Hyperbole, and a kindness to the fact they rode without saddles. In any case, the world's greatest cavalry seemed to lose all the time.

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Please take the opportunity to check your sources prior to dis-claiming what is known to many others. In the history of Indian warfare, this village (by far) was the largest. perhaps if you posted a verifiable, larger one you would achieve some credibility

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Custer was no scapegoat for the campaign. Even at the time, the blame for the campaign's failure was not put on Custer. Crook's battle couldn't be blamed on him. Custer is the scapegoat for the Battle of the Little Bighorn only, with reason and hard to argue against it.

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Oh I get it, you are simply stating your personal perceptions of the battle while excluding facts. Obviously you have (once again) not bothered to check verifiable resources - Reno Inquiry- and perused the statements of Reno, Benteen, Wallace and the antics of Gilbert.

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How does accepting the army's hardwired belief the Indians would run allow one to "begin to understand..."

1. Crook's appreciation of his foe.
2. The Sioux running from Terry and Gibbon
3. that Custer was slaughtered....

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Well, first of all they would not have divided their forces, a ploy designated to "corral" dispersing forces which was the direct result of their failure.

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....that the facts alone didn't provide?

Custer could have retreated right up to the point he crossed MTC. His decision to do else was his error.

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This one simply, salient, critical, thought provoking element of the battle that you have never understood...Custer never intended nor desired to retreat until the last moment;Reno and Benteen deserted him leaving escape impossible

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Originally posted by Dark Cloud

Your own remarks over this forum condemn you, Wiggs. You tried to defame Benteen, and then lied about it. You don't know what you actually posted, you didn't give credit when you quoted others and tried to pass it off as your own, you misquoted/misread that which you presented. It's all in the Benteen Order thread you started. You've also pretended to status of occupation you did not have. I direct all who doubt to that thread. It's all there, Wiggs. You can't deny it with success.
J. Wiggs reply
My goodness! Convinced that your thread was espousing and condemning me as a failure as a human being, you can imagine my shock and pleasure upon reading the above high lighted section. Thank you. This can only mean I'm not as bad as you say I am.

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Originally posted by waldo

Do you all agree that cover in the timber was better than Reno hill? Reno panicked and ran, and his men followed willy nilly? Would you rather fight from the timber or run to the high ground?

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Originally posted by joe wiggs

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Originally posted by AZ Ranger

Would it not have been better, as a commander, to stay with your men, encourage them through stalwart, visible leadership, then, perhaps, an experienced top sergeant to scout the woods? Or, post men around the perimeter to hold off the enemy while evaluating the situation. If the decision ti evacuate is then made, have your trumpeter order "recall" and "Charge."

No that is the company commanders job. Reno was to plan what to do next.

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Once in awhile we come across a thread that is unique and mystifying simultaneously! After sparing with AZ "Lo", these many months regarding Reno's "charge" he posts the above theory substantiating my very thesis as to what Reno should have done but, did not do! Reno began his run to the river without doing any of the things you suggested AZ!

Even if overwhelmed, are you still recommending that he was correct in his decision to "charge" whiteout taking the steps you,yourself, recommended?

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Originally posted by AZ Ranger

Would it not have been something if Reno had remained in the timber for 20 minutes or less? The timber was much better fortified than the hill. Custer would have arrived within that time and Benteen soon after. If nothing else the end results would have turned out differently.

The timber had poor fields of fire, had vegetation visually separating soldiers from each other, allowed for infiltration by the Indians, and was too large to cover the entire perimeter at a reasonable spacing between soldiers.

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Originally posted by joe wiggs

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Originally posted by AZ Ranger

Would it not have been something if Reno had remained in the timber for 20 minutes or less? The timber was much better fortified than the hill. Custer would have arrived within that time and Benteen soon after. If nothing else the end results would have turned out differently.

The timber had poor fields of fire, had vegetation visually separating soldiers from each other, allowed for infiltration by the Indians, and was too large to cover the entire perimeter at a reasonable spacing between soldiers.

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With all sincerity, I can't imagine what resources you are reading to extrapolate your amazing conclusions. The timber was an excellent cover as it did much to prevent Indian encroachment. The singular incident of penetration of hostile fire occurred simply because no one formed a perimeter of guards to counter the assault. It is a fact that after firing, the 20 to 30 Indians responsible fled.

The warriors were even unsuccessful in their attempts to set the timber on fire. I won't waste my time listing the numerous Indian leaders who were shocked that Reno left such good cover;you simply would ignore that. Nor will I list the white witnesses who determined that the timber was a much better position that the hill Reno arrived at;you would ignore that as well.

Heaven forbid that I bring up the inexplicable rationale used by Reno to leave a "known" military position to rush to an "unknown" military position. What if hundreds of warriors were sitting their waiting for Reno rather than the few that were?

No, the vegetation did not separate the soldiers nor was the area to large to defend. Please read Legend into History by Kuhlman. He gives an extensive thesis on this exact subject.

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Originally posted by AZ Ranger

The other inconsistency is Benteen's statement about the packs being between him and the Indians and he was not concerned about loosing them, presumably because they, the Indians, would have had to have gone through him to have broke through to them. What doesn't make sense here is if Ben teen felt that way, why on earth would Reno have not felt the same way and went on ahead? Now I know what he stated, but there appears to be evidence that they did leave shortly after the pack mules arrived. And there appears to have been a great confusion over who left when, and where they actually went to, and even how far.

Come on Ben teen I expect better out of you. Ben teen is talking about moving down Reno Creek and he is between the Indians and the pack train when he receives the Martin note. You can not state the same for Reno's position if he moved toward Custer. Since Indians move without formations the flank and rear of Reno's movement to Custer would be exposed along the bluffs and certainly in MTV if proceeded to go further.

AZ Ranger

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Originally posted by AZ Ranger

Custer wasn't on a scouting trip to see if there was a big village. If he withdraws and the Indians leave then what? Reno withdrew and the Indians followed him. Somehow I believe you and others think that if they were all in one large group they would be better off than 3 Batallions with all companies engaged in the battle at the same time.

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Originally posted by Dark Cloud

Mrs. Custer's debt and reliance on friends for living quarters till she got going is not a hidden or recently uncovered fact. Her letters exist, it's well known. Her inheritance from her father was gone by her husband's death, the life insurance was not enough. I directed you to two two books, Leckie and Utley, as proof, since it's pretty clear Warlord you don't have much of a grasp of Custer's life at all and, in general, aren't well read on the battle itself. Wiggs insists Custerphobe and Custerphile mean things they do not.

In fact, Warlord, aside from your personal attacks against various people, your posts are devoid of any information at all, and what there was turned out to be incorrect.

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Originally posted by AZ Ranger

Actually according to W O Taylor unlike Joe was actually there he states the troops were formed and rode in file with their extended arm firing there revolver.

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I enjoyed reading Taylor's work. he is very informative and, like you said, he was there! Taylor, however, often put a positive spin on things that simply put, were not quite true. For example, He writes: "All of the bodies were mutilated and scalped, arrows shot into the bodies, except gen. Custer, who on the afternoon of June 27, 1876 was lying apart from the rest of soldiers on higher ground, fully clothed and not scalped. (Underline by Taylor) He also wrote "Did not hear volleys fired by Custer's men as signal, or nobody else heard them. As you are aware Az,13 out of sixteen witnesses did hear the firing.

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The problem is that you can't reload a revolver while galloping on horseback. Secondly horses running at a charge command are running flat out or at true 4-beat gallop. In a relative short distance they separate because of speed differences of the individuals. That is why in the manuals the preferred charge distance is around 50 yards. In the case of Reno in the valley the distance was much greater and the revolver was empty when they reached the river.

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I think that the majority of us are aware that you can't re-load a revolver on horse back. An alternative is to rein up on command, halt, dis-mount (on command) and prepare to fire on foot;fire(On command)! Another alternative is to not flee in an un-organized mob and,rather,utilize the military sound timber instead of deserting it to rush toward the unknown.

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Sgt Ryan unlike Joe was there and said the hand to hand was intense at the river.

Think about it, can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt I was not there? The fighting was hand to back mostly as quite a few soldiers were pulled, clubbed, and shot from the back as they were fleeing. I don't this to denigrate a solitary soul. these men met a situation that was overwhelming due to poor leadership and I feel nothing but compassion for their deaths.

Not sure where Joe got the 12 foot bank from could be true or not.

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It's true! I promise on scout's honor!

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AZ Ranger

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Originally posted by joe wiggs

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Originally posted by AZ Ranger

Actually according to W O Taylor unlike Joe was actually there he states the troops were formed and rode in file with their extended arm firing there revolver.

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I enjoyed reading Taylor's work. he is very informative and, like you said, he was there! Taylor, however, often put a positive spin on things that simply put, were not quite true. For example, He writes: "All of the bodies were mutilated and scalped, arrows shot into the bodies, except gen. Custer, who on the afternoon of June 27, 1876 was lying apart from the rest of soldiers on higher ground, fully clothed and not scalped. (Underline by Taylor) He also wrote "Did not hear volleys fired by Custer's men as signal, or nobody else heard them. As you are aware Az,13 out of sixteen witnesses did hear the firing.

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The problem is that you can't reload a revolver while galloping on horseback. Secondly horses running at a charge command are running flat out or at true 4-beat gallop. In a relative short distance they separate because of speed differences of the individuals. That is why in the manuals the preferred charge distance is around 50 yards. In the case of Reno in the valley the distance was much greater and the revolver was empty when they reached the river.

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I think that the majority of us are aware that you can't re-load a revolver on horse back. An alternative is to rein up on command, halt, dis-mount (on command) and prepare to fire on foot;fire(On command)! Another alternative is to not flee in an un-organized mob and,rather,utilize the military sound timber instead of deserting it to rush toward the unknown.

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Sgt Ryan unlike Joe was there and said the hand to hand was intense at the river.

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Think about it, can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt I was not there?Be careful of speaking what you assume to be the truth without reallying knowing. The fighting was hand to back mostly as quite a few soldiers were pulled, clubbed, and shot from the back as they were fleeing. I don't this to denigrate a solitary soul. these men met a situation that was overwhelming due to poor leadership and I feel nothing but compassion for their deaths.

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Not sure where Joe got the 12 foot bank from could be true or not.

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It's true! I promise on scout's honor!

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AZ Ranger

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