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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - December 28 2004 : 03:32:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
DC: Very weak argumentation! Obviously I am not the only one who thinks so! Arguing other peoples finaces even at close distance is a loser. For one thing the fortunes of finance change from year to year, they do not remain static. For another prominent people can easily reverse their fortunes! As usual your analysis is static and stagnant!
You are a one trick pony dc! Ad hominum attack, then denigrate! Pathetic,pathetic!!!
You could say "I bail" a lot more concisely, Warlord. He's put up several references in support of his position, which you have not responded to or dealt with. You've put up nothing to contradict them. Instead of wailing petulantly, maybe you should first read the books to which he's directed you, and then respond in detail why they're wrong.
R. Larsen |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 03:58:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
I'm not where I can look it up, and I am not finding support of the WEB, but I do have it somewhere.
Hark! http://homepages.enterprise.net/rogerp/franklin.html
This isn't my recalled source, but it's some support, anyway. I found it through the Russel Potter site: http://www.ric.edu/rpotter/SJFranklin.html
Thanks for posting these D.C. I read the first link, and unless you are aware of this writers sources being posted somewhere else, then I'm disappointed in you. There is not one bit of supported documentation (footnotes, endnotes, whatever) in this fellow’s article. If none exists, how can you even consider passing the link on? It goes against every form of argument you post on this board since the article does not provided sources.
The second link looks promising. I’ll need to look it over in more detail later.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 04:07:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Don't misunderstand me, the Franklin guys were laced with lead. But I either read or saw on the HC or Discovery that most everyone in those years was laced with lead. Not just from food, but paint, wallpaper, pipes, water, wine, all sorts of stuff. It isn't like there weren't lots of ships with the same sort of food with crews from the same ports. All I recall is that the upshot was you can't say these guys on King William went mad when these people buried in some grave construction hit in London (Birmingham? I cannot recall)died at 75 with no one claiming they were bonkers. Don't forget, this was the age of the mad hatter and mercury poisoning and all that.
I don't doubt that Victorians consumed more lead than we do today --- after all, Franklin expedition members weren't the only people of the time using lead soldered cans --- but I hardly see how that can write off the very high lead levels observed in Franklin crew members. The levels are simply unhealthy. They do weaken the body, and make it more susceptible to diseases --- that's the main problem, not "madness". Ingestion of that amount of lead is so toxic it changes your bones. One of the authors of the sites you listed claims that Victorians were more "conditioned" to high levels of lead than we are today, and while I'm sure they were exposed to more lead than us, I have to raise my eyebrows at that "conditioned" part. The Victorians had far higher mortality and poorer health than Western peoples today, and all that junk they were ingesting from the air and from their food probably played a role. Beattie & Geiger show that lead poisoning from cans was recognized as a problem even in that period, and if you were relying on that as your main food source (as the Franklin crews were, no fresh meat and eggs except by luck or fairies sent down from heaven) well, what's going to happen?
I am wary of overstating the lead factor. Too many people yearn to find magic bullets that can explain everything in an event that happened, and the Franklin expedition is just too weird and multifaceted for everything that went wrong to be blamed just on the cans. But I'm pretty sure they played their role.
R. Larsen |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 04:20:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bhist
Just as recently as last month, the great study of this research, "Frozen in Time" by Owen Beattie, et al was reprinted and I'm not aware that they've changed their tune or that it was explained that their research was inaccurate.
If anyone has the old hardcover edition published in the '80s, I'd urge them to buy this new paperback as well. It's been heavily revised, about 90 pages added based on further research, and is all in all a better book.
R. Larsen |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 09:21:52 AM
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The best I can do till the new year. I only said it was some support after finding nothing else yesterday. As, Bhist, it being unsupported, that's true. But if it is true that most cans of that batch exploded in the warehouse, it's a safe bet they did with Franklin and were tossed, explaining the very few cans found, which are not enough to pass along much lead to the crew.
The original theory about lead was that it drove them mad and that explains the ridiculoous crap they tried to carry away to Ft. Lauderdale and probably why they got stuck. If the theory has been toned down to simply lowering their resistence to illness, I missed it. After two years of being frozen in, lead was probably the least of their issues.
The source I recall called into question the assumptions about safe lead intake at what stages of life because the bodies in England exhumed inadvertently had very high levels that brought about the comparison to Franklin's guys.
I don't have the Beatty book but I'll look it up. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on December 28 2004 09:27:34 AM |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 10:05:25 AM
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I see that the same old game is not changed. The opinion of someone are good and untouchable and, oh, they are supported. But the other not. Even if they write supported opinions too. Exemple? Dc: Custer was wrong. L: no, I have the proof not. DC: that book say so. L: I have another book that say otherwise. DC:Oh, but that book is not believable. L:correspondences? DC: Everybody knows they was accordingly written. And then, no chances. That's always the tactical used by you. For some magical mistery, all my references are not believed or, even they disappear under your eyes and are not considered.
The letters were not written accordingly: Libbie published, of her letters, what she liked to be knew in her books, but the correspondences as in Merington are untouched. Or, even the latest biographies. Or, if you have the luck to see, the true correspondence handwritten. Or, still better, the letters she sent to friends. They holded it and there was nothing accordingly written: pain, love, no blame on Custer, that was all truth. Louise Barnett said that Libbie's situation was the same and even better of other 7th Cavalry widows. And she gave the fault to society not to her husband. Custer was unlucky as said; you seem to forget that he had also get burned his house, and other hard changes; and financial problems came not from gambling (also if this surely did'nt help), but from wrong investments or wrong horses. Investments that was advised from third persons (for horses misfortune there are also lot of references that talk about it) ,That's not a crime. I guess that Custer would have improved his situation if back alive from the Battle, unfortunately for Him, for Libbie and all his comrades and friends, God had decided otherwise.
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If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 11:10:21 AM
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Again, Lorenzo, you accuse me of stuff I've not done.
"The letters were not written accordingly: Libbie published, of her letters, what she liked to be knew in her books, but the correspondences as in Merington are untouched." I have small clue what you're talking about, but hazarding a guess, I never said the letters were altered after the fact.
Mrs. Custer's situation may or may not have been better than other 7th widows, but the only ones to be fairly compared to are the widows of officers. She was the widow of a CW national hero which other widows were not. She blamed everyone but her husband, the guy in charge, for the disaster that killed so many. No blame whatsoever. And she cashed in on this. She blamed other officers for a disaster about which she was not qualified to say anything and about which she knew little till her dying day.
I never said Custer was unlucky. He was extraordinarily fortunate through his life.
That his wife had to work as a secretary is due solely to his gambling away her inheritance on things like gold mines and race horses. He wasn't forced to make these investments. He could have left her money alone and just invested profits from his own business successes. Except, there never were any. Huh. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
 Posted - December 28 2004 : 11:21:51 AM
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| I said he was unlucky... however, no chances. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 12:23:24 PM
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He had every chance, Lorenzo. He had access to the smartest people in the country. He had access to those who'd advise then as now relatively safe, solid investments in known industries with lesser but consistent returns. However you define "safe" it does not include gold mines and race horses.
But Custer is nearly always in debt and needs the quick buck. He was a gambler. It's one thing to risk your own right arm taking a chance for profit. It's quite another to risk the lives and welfare of others for your profit. He risked his wife's future for it when she should have been set.
He may have risked that of his men. Certainly his financial future was dismal if he lost to the Sioux, blew the campaign in the public eye, and lived. He was heavily in debt. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 2:43:52 PM
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This entire discussion begs the question: What did Custer do before his death to ensure Libby's financial well-being?
I think we'd all agree that Custer was aware that he was in a pretty dangerous line of work. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only asset she seems to have been left was his lore--with which she did very well.
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Bob Bostwick |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 6:51:49 PM
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Must I clap the hands? I don't.
Dark, you know very well that in his last period he had no good relationships, even worst after his testimony against the President. Custer was an hot subject. He had all the changes I told, the suspended pay for one year etc.
He provided to his wife a life insurance, and, also the widows of other officers had the same destiny. Margaret Calhoun and others. Libbie earned a pitiful pension too, of 30 dollars. The Government would had to take better care of widows that lost their husbands for the Nation!
I already know though that my words are useless. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 7:21:45 PM
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The sound of one hand clapping is sufficient, Lorenzo. Custer reaped what he'd planted. He couldn't pass up a chance for the limelight and so testified to nothing very important - hearsay as I recall - and pissed Grant off to no point. D'oh! That was stupid, plain and simple.
You miss the point. Mrs. Custer was relatively wealthy in her own right at marriage and after her father's death. In Custer's hands, she lost everything and was responsible for his debts at his death. What other officer's widow of the 7th was in that boat? Some were in tough shape, but they weren't in worse shape than they were before their marriage, were they? Who, other than Libbie, was now in debt? (Margaret Calhoun had to have been a basket case anyway, regardless of wealth. Three brothers, a husband, a nephew, friends. That's beyond the pale.) |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 8:19:24 PM
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We're back in Devil Custer! I did'nt know that the Anthicrist was a General of Cavalry!
Let me just collect the widow situation and you'll see. But even if I make youa statement of widows "we were poorer" I am sure you'll don't accept it.
As for Grant, Custer was called to testify and was compelled to go. He just said what he knew and answered to the questions they askedhim. Stupid was to compell him going testify and hold him in Washington, delaying so the preparing of the mission.
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If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 9:52:31 PM
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That scenario never occured, Lorenzo.
Custer volunteered that he had information and he was summoned as he had to have known he would be. He didn't have anything, really. The administration certainly did not call him, but the Congress elements investigating administration corruption, and Belknap and certainly his lovely wife Puss were guilty as hell. Whether Grant's relatives were, as Custer inferred, we don't know. In truth, the investigation was more important than the miitary mission, and lots of people could have taken over for Custer. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - December 30 2004 : 06:17:54 AM
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DC, it's your scenario that never occurred. You hate for Custer is sympthomatic. However, while preparing his mission, Custer received a telegram from Clymer, Chairman of the Congressional Committee, that REQUIRED HIM at Washington. After this, Custer telegraphed to Terry, saying that he had only informations on hearsay and so asking if he could not avoid to go in Washington. Terry, answered in march 16 1876 from St. Paul: I SHOULD SUPPOSE THAT IF YOUR TESTIMONY IS NOT AS TO THE FACT THEMSELVES, AND WILL ONLY POINT OUT THE WITNESSES FROM WHOM THE COMMITTEE CAN GET THE FACTS YOUR INFORMATIONS MIGHT BE COMMUNICATED BY LETTER OR TELEGRAPH, AND THAT BEING DONE, YOU MIGHT ASK TO BE RELIEVED FROM PERSONAL ATTENTION WITHOUT EXPOSING YOURSELF FOR MISCONTRUCTION.
That's exactly what Custer done, as proved by his telegram of the same day to Clymer: I AM ENGAGED UPON AN IMPORTANT EXPEDITION, INTENDED TO OPERATE AGAINST THE HOSTILE INDIANS, AND I EXPECT TO TAKE THE FIELD EARLY IN APRIL. MY PRESENCE HERE IS DEEMED VERY NECESSARY. IN VIEW OF THIS, WOULD IT BE NOT SATISFACTORY FOR YOU TO FORWARD TO ME SUCH QUESTIONS AS MAY BE NECESSARY, ALLOWING ME TO RETURN MY REPLIES BY MAIL.
But Clymer and the Committee denied and Custer WAS COMPELLED OR WAS ORDERED as you prefere, to go in Washington.
And while there, his mind was always to his mission: To Libbie, almost everyday, claimed to hope be back soon, and then tryed to ask all his usefull friends to have him back to Fort lincoln. 17 April: TOMORROW THE BOARD OF MANAGERS OF THE BELKNAP IMPEACHMENT TRIAL, AND HOPE TO CONCLUDE MY ERRAND HERE. THEY HAVE NOT YET DECIDED WHETHER THEY WANT ME FURTHER, BUT I FEEL CONFIDENT THEY WILL NOT, FOR, AS I HAVE INFORMED THEM, NEARLY ALL MY EVIDENCE IS HEARSAY. He tryed again with Terry, with Sherman, even with the President, (you said once that he had influence and the greatest powerfull friends) but no chance. He had to stay there. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 30 2004 : 10:06:23 AM
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Lorenzo, how in the world - why in the world - do you think Clymer would, out of the blue, telegram Custer demanding his presence? There was a LOT that went on before that telegram. Custer let in be known he had information. You make it sound like Custer was surprised or should have been when the telegram arrived.
It's very silly to pretend that Custer's involvement somehow started with the telegram. It's embarrassing that he now had to pretend he really did not have any damning info, which was more or less true, but he'd opened his own can of worms.
Read the Leckie book. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on December 30 2004 11:20:50 AM |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - December 30 2004 : 11:47:19 AM
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Custer did not start the affair, there was a lot of officiers of the frontier that lamented situation with post-traders etc. In any case, Custer done not more than the other officiers - right done I add - and yes, it was a surprise to be called because there was nothing official. He was called under "hearsay": someone said he was heard to say he knew something about the matter. Stupid surely this way of the Committee, but it was so. And out of this, there was another reason: he, democrat, would have been a good object TO USE against Grant...
Finally, His words I quoted are clear about his feelings, otherwise he would never had telegraphed to Terry and never acted as he acted later. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - December 30 2004 : 1:40:33 PM
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Simply answered: Custer WAS NOT the other officiers.
He still was a celebrity and his presence was a hit for newspapers. More, he was politically usefull to the Committee. However he was'nt the only one called, look for exemple General McDonald. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 30 2004 : 2:30:23 PM
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| True. Custer was more on the make than most other officers. He thought the Clymer hearings would be a photo-op and publicity junkett for himself and his career. It backfired on him big time, because he attacked his Commander in Chief's family with nothing to be called evidence, and because he had nothing much to say anyway. Custer had made himself available and let it be known he'd testify. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - December 31 2004 : 08:46:48 AM
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Dc, It's You that have utter ignorance, but about Custer. You just want to be the primadonna. This comes out from your answers that are destroyed by themselves, their lack of substance and clearly disproved by The words, the feelings and thoughts of Custer, thoughts which are fully expressed in his letters. Yet, in your opinion, with me and Warlord, a good company of people must be considered with the alleged "utter ignorance" as Don Horn, Merington, Barnett, Carroll, Frost...However, this is my last answer as it seems that most of all you are searching the last word. Well hold it cause I don't want to ruin you the New Year's eve. And then, I'm here for expressing an opinion, not to win a personal battle.
Happy new year to everybody. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 31 2004 : 12:04:23 PM
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Lorenzo, I found this in Skelnar's book, To Hell With Honor pertaining to Custer and gambling:
page 48.
"While Custer eschewed the perils of drink, he was known to bet a thousand dollars in a poker game on a bluff and lose, or to wager five hundred dollars on a horse race and win. He had triumped over gin and had curtailed his cursing to a rare oath, but his fight against the roll of the dice was inconsistent, and the rush obtained from high risk was a demon he could not finally defeat. Gambling was a habit he indulged in to the end, although he proclaimed from time to time that he was able to resist the temptation."
And while I am only on the 3rd chapter, I can unequivocally state that Skelnar turns a somewhat blind eye upon Custer's foibles. But all in all, a good book so far, if somewhat harsh on Benteen.
Happy New Year to you,
Billy |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 31 2004 : 12:11:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BJMarkland
Lorenzo, I found this in Skelnar's book, To Hell With Honor pertaining to Custer and gambling:
page 48.
"While Custer eschewed the perils of drink, he was known to bet a thousand dollars in a poker game on a bluff and lose, or to wager five hundred dollars on a horse race and win. He had triumped over gin and had curtailed his cursing to a rare oath, but his fight against the roll of the dice was inconsistent, and the rush obtained from high risk was a demon he could not finally defeat. Gambling was a habit he indulged in to the end, although he proclaimed from time to time that he was able to resist the temptation."
And while I am only on the 3rd chapter, I can unequivocally state that Skelnar turns a somewhat blind eye upon Custer's foibles. But all in all, a good book so far, if somewhat harsh on Benteen.
Happy New Year to you,
Billy
Skelnar’s book is basically harsh on everyone except any of the Custers. How can anyone take Skelnar serious when he doesn't use one bit of primary evidence, he grabs theories out of the air in attempts to sound original, and he openly praises Custer like a girl in a front row of a Rolling Stone's concert.
Once I reached the point of the book where the Lone Tipi becomes a second village I wanted to throw the book against the wall. But, I had to finish it to see what else this blind Custer lover would come up with.
The book is a prime example of just how badly wannabe historians can screw things up.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
Edited by - bhist on December 31 2004 12:40:40 PM |
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Responsibility At Little Bighorn
