| Author |
 Topic  |
|
El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - August 11 2003 : 03:10:50 AM
|
Another thing popped into my head tonight. In 1866, Captain William Fetterman led 80 men to their deaths. In 1876, Lt. Colonel George Armstrong Custer led 210 men to their deaths (or was it 209, with him being 210?). Yet the Fetterman Massacre has produced but a few books and paintings, and Custer's Last Stand has so many. Granted, Fetterman was an inexperienced moron with bars on his shoulders, and Custer was a national hero, one of the most popular humans in the US at the time. But that aside, there's still a discrepancy, and the difference in the commander may explain it.
Fetterman's fight is pretty much figured out. The Cavalry moved faster than the Infantry, both lured into an ambush. The horsemen then retreated, falling back past the poor Infantry, who tried to fight and fall back. Two civilians with repeaters by a tree sold their lives dearly covering the retreat, and the troopers were slaughtered in a very small circle, with Fetterman and his subordinate officers possibly committing suicide, surrounded by their men.
What's the difference between this and the Custer fight? The "facts" of the Fetterman Massacre aren't debated, despite no white survivors. What are the reasons? I think some of it is due to the grand scope of the fight. The Fetterman Massacre was a small battle, fought quickly and in a small area. Indian accounts would roughly be the same, one warrior fighting in one area would probably have a similar tale as one on the complete opposite side of the troops. The actual fight probably lasted 15 min. But the Custer fight involved five companies, moved over several miles and cannot be summed up in just one account. Plus, HE was killed there, and that means the fight just can't be left alone. But it seems weird that one fight with no survivors is practically forgotten, no mystery or confusion over the fight's course, while the other one is probably the most studied and written-about battle in American History...
|
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
|
|
Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2003 : 06:28:31 AM
|
Likely it is because it was a "larger" battle, on a larger scale, with more US casualties, more people to "blame", etc. A General is killed--not just a captain.
But "who" was involved is also important. I would imagine if the leader roles were reversed (i.e. Custer being in charge of Fetterman's unit) we'd hear a bit more about it. |
  |
|
|
Anonymous Poster2321
Forum Guest
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2003 : 11:29:59 AM
|
It was a very big deal at the time, although street fights in New York or Chicago might kill as many. The Christmas time slaughter, the mutilations. However, the losses weren't so horrible viewed only a year or so after Cold Harbor and the Civil War in general, plus within a year or so, the Army pulled out and admitted defeat in the Powder River War by its actions, if not in press release, and so the drumbeat of vengeance wasn't strong. The press lost interest. Ten years later, America was delicate again in her sensibilities, and screaming headlines before the Centennial made LBHt seem actually more epic and imporatant than it was. Really, it has zero importance as a battle.
If Custer had never happened, this would still get a lot of coverage today. It was just overshadowed by a public that can only have one battle in mind for symbolism, although it's unsure of what. |
|
|
|
bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2003 : 3:10:12 PM
|
The answer to El Crab's question is simple. Custer died near the easy on and easy off intersection of Interstate 90 and Hwy 212.
Seriously, I think most responses here have answered the question well. I will add, though, that there is more drama wrapped around the Custer fight considering the campaign leading up to it was complex and incorporated another interesting Battle of the Rosebud. The campaign that followed the Custer fight involved many more battles, Crooks' starvation march, Crazy Horse surrendering then his death, Sitting Bull escaping to Canada and so on. The Fetterman fight was just one fight and when it was over most of the drama ends (to the novice).
And, finally, one can see the 7th Cavalry Monument much easier from I-90 going 80mph than the Fetterman Marker which has the beautiful backdrop of the Big Horns to draw people's attention from Fetterman.
|
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
|
|
|
Anonymous Poster8169
Forum Guest
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2003 : 6:38:15 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
Another thing popped into my head tonight. In 1866, Captain William Fetterman led 80 men to their deaths. In 1876, Lt. Colonel George Armstrong Custer led 210 men to their deaths (or was it 209, with him being 210?).
You could say 210, since it now appears that George B. Mask of B Troop was a member of the battalion. John Bailey, the saddler of B Troop, told Walter Camp that Mask was "with Custer on Headquarters Police". As for your main question, I think the other posters pretty much nailed it: scope, timing, and drama.
R. Larsen
|
|
|
|
Rich
Commander-in-Chief
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2003 : 7:55:11 PM
|
I feel that the reason is largely because of the mystique, and popularity, of Custer himself. The single largest defeat of US forces at the hands of American Indians was St. Clair's defeat in the Old Northwest - Ohio Territory - in the 1790s - The Battle of Little Bighorn pales in comparison, as far as casualties are concerned. Yet, who even knows this event took place? Certainly, there is no National Park there to commemorate ... maybe a marker? I don't know.
Custer truly was a legend in his own time. A lot like Davy Crockett in that regard. |
Rich/Forum Administrator |
|
|
|
El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2003 : 9:07:49 PM
|
I knew about Arthur St. Clair and his defeat at the hands of Little Turtle. Over 600 dead and 300 wounded out of 1200 soldiers. But I agree, its who was killed. Custer was a legendary figure, even then. He might not have been the most important Union commander, but he sure left his mark on the US Civil War. How many other officers would reach his status if they were wiped out with 200 other soldiers on some Montana hillside? And because of this, people don't even know what he did from First Bull Run to Appomattox. Its quite a legacy he left behind. But all most people know is he died in a Last Stand, and he was an "Indian Killer".
Born in Scotland, Arthur St. Clair was also the only foreign born President, elected while we were still under the Articles of the Confederation. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
|
|
|
lorendead
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2003 : 9:09:55 PM
|
The Fetterman Fight,and also the Kidder fight and most of the Plains Indians war are not covered as much as the Little Big Horn battle. Most of the poster's above have answered the questions as to why.
In my humble opinion the following reasons are why. Custer was a national hero of that time similar to Davey Crockett we all need hero's.
The misconception that the Seventh cavalry was a crack unit defeated by savages.
Last but not least Hollywood has done more for Custer than anything he could have possibly done in his own life time. Best Wishes Loren Dead |
|
|
|
pjsolla
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2003 : 9:24:41 PM
|
| My God!!!!! A civil forum on all topic's!! Scuse me while I wipe the tear from my eye!!!!! Kudos to all of you. I like the differences of opinion, yet the civility!!!! |
|
|
|
pjsolla
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2003 : 10:25:59 PM
|
| Rich: Care to give a little more info on St. Clair's defeat. Or as the printer wrote it in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, "Defeeted". |
|
|
|
El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2003 : 11:33:59 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by lorendead
The Fetterman Fight,and also the Kidder fight and most of the Plains Indians war are not covered as much as the Little Big Horn battle. Most of the poster's above have answered the questions as to why.
In my humble opinion the following reasons are why. Custer was a national hero of that time similar to Davey Crockett we all need hero's.
The misconception that the Seventh cavalry was a crack unit defeated by savages.
Last but not least Hollywood has done more for Custer than anything he could have possibly done in his own life time. Best Wishes Loren Dead
You could also make an argument for Hollywood doing a disservice to his reputation as well, especially from Vietnam till now. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
|
|
|
pjsolla
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2003 : 4:35:40 PM
|
I have given a lot of thought as to why the LBH battle is such a mesmerizing historical battle for many. I have been to a number of historical sites around the country. I have come to the realization that the Battle of The Little Big Horn is the ONLY one I have seen where markers (headstones) show you where the participants (US Army) fell and actually lets you see the flow of the battle. All other sites I have seen have wayside markers, etc. LBH says to the visitor, "here fell a trooper of the US 7th Cavalry". True, there is some enigma to Custer, but the battlefield plays that out.
Now I have not been to many other historical sites, but I cannot recall one that is set up like LBH. Not Gettysburg, Valley Forge, The Alamo, etc. Each headstone says, a trooper fell fighting here. You follow the battle from Medicine Tail Coulee to Calhoun Hill, to Keogh Sector, to Last Stand Hill to the South Skirmish Line and Deep Ravine. And its outlined for all to see with headstones (markers). While it may not be the only manget concerning the battle, it surely rates right at the top. And again, my opinion. When you walk onto that battlefield, you are there! I have seen Valley Forge, The Alamo, etc. Never got such a feeling as when I set foot on that square mile. It sorta envelopes you.
If those markers (headstones) were removed, I think the compelling attraction of the battlefield would go with it. It would be another Gettysburg, Alamo, Valley Forge, Andersonville, etc. And this is not meant to detract from those sites, but rather my explanation of why the Little Big Horn attracts the way it does. |
|
|
|
El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2003 : 10:46:21 PM
|
| I've never been there (yet), but I can agree there. This fact is similar to what I have noticed with books. When you read a book about a fight and it shows a field, you have to picture where the combatants were, what they were doing, etc. But with a Custer book, you just see markers. You see exactly where to look and what you're supposed to look at. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
|
|
|
frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 26 2003 : 02:15:47 AM
|
   I'm coming into this discussion very late, so excuse me. Also, jpsolla, as you said, it's been very civil, and I'll try to keep it that way, but it's something I feel very passionate about.
First, as to why the Fetterman fight was given so little attention compared to the LBH, you've all explained that very adequately, so I won't go into it. Although the blame fell mainly on Fetterman and the hotheaded Brown, this was like a cloud over the head of Col. Carrington for the rest of his life. Someone mentioned Fetterman being inexperienced. He was inexperienced only in Indian fighting. He was a decorated Civil War veteran. And unlike Custer, Fetterman had no respect for the fighting ability of the Indians, making the famous statement, "Give me 80 men and I'll ride through the entire Sioux nation," or words to that effect. And we all know 80 men is almost exactly what he had when he was annhialated.
It was mentioned that the LBH is so well marked, while the Fetterman site isn't. I walked it last summer, and it's pretty well marked and getting new signs each year, but obviously not as well as the LBH. If you walk along the trail to its end, you come to a fence. That's as far as you can go because the northernmost part up to Peno Creek is private property. Unfortunately, that's where the Wheatley-Fisher rocks are located and can't be seen. It was from these rocks that Wheatly and Fisher and a couple of soldiers made their stand.
It is a pity that there are no markers showing where the soldiers fell because it would have a much more dramatic effect. Standing at that fenceline, if the markers were there, you could see the line of markers telling the story, starting with Wheatley and Fisher, and you could see the markers of the infantrymen as they tried to retreat, following the cavalry, and ending up where the Fetterman oblisque is located, right at the rocks where Fetterman and Brown supposedly aimed their revolvers at each others heads and committed suicide, and their brains were beaten to pulp on those rocks, as well as their entrail pulled out and scattered all over those rocks. You can sit on those rocks today while reading the pertinent passages.
You can see the marker for bugler Adolph Metzger and visualize him among the rocks about midway between the fencline to the north and Fetterman's monument, fighting off the Indians with his bugle once his ammo ran out, surrounded by hundreds of Indians. He was the only one not mutilated, out of respect, and covered by a blanket to protect him from mutilation.
Wheatly and Fisher, on the other hand, were also known to have taken the greatest toll on the Indians because they were the only ones with their Henry repeating rifles. Just wanted to try them out. They so enraged the Indians because of the number of Indians they killed that each man had close to a hundred arrows in them and were horribly mutilated.
I'm sorry, but I'm just getting started. Someone mentioned that the LBH had more drama than the obscure Fetterman battle. The LBH has more questions, but more drama? To me, there was never more drama than that which surrounded the Bozeman Trail and the establishment of the forts built to protect it.
Try this. When Carrington departed to establish Ft. Phil Kearny, a smaller wagon train followed under command of Lt. Templeton. They were attacked at Crazy Woman Crossing, just as Red Cloud promised any whites would be. In fact, there were more Indian fights at that spot than anywhere in the west. A civilian photographer, Ridgeway Glover, was with them. During the fight, Glover was in the process of taking pictures of the actual Indian raid and battle when Lt. Wands hollered at him, "Dammit, Ridgeway, if you're so keen to shoot Indians, you're a hell of a lot more use to me if you use a Springfield instead of a damned camera!" So because of that order, one of the only attempts to photograph an actual attack was lost.
To make matters worse, once at Ft. Phil, Glover had a habit of going out for days at a time by himself photographing the area, as well as his photos of the fort. Unfortunately, on his way back to the fort after such an outing, having refused the escort of returning soldiers, he was attacked and killed and scalped and his camera and plates were all destroyed. No one knows what happened to any photos he had taken before that, and again, history is denied photos of this historic fort and fort life.
No drama? Carrington sent out woodcutting parties daily, and daily they were attacked, this being several miles northwest of the fort. This was the setting for the famous Wagon Box fight. This was among the first times a small body of men were able to hold off hundreds--estimates vary--of Indians with their Springfield carbines, guns which the Indians had never been up against. It is said that even though Red Cloud defeated the U.S. concerning the Bozeman, the number of his young men lost broke his spirit.
More drama? After Fetterman's massacre, the folks at the fort knew they were next, setting the stage for the heroic ride of Portugee Phillips. Riding Carrington's own horse during one of the worst blizzards of the time, Phillips rode from Ft. Phil to Ft. Laramie to give news of the Fetterman massacre, a distance of over 230 miles. He had to do this in the middle of snowstorms, while evading Indians. He arrived around midnight and stumbled into Old Bedlam, the unmarried officers' quarters, in the middle of their Xmas party to tell of the defeat and conditions at Ft. Phil. Carrington's horse died after arriving at Ft. Laramie. There is a monument dedicated to Phillips where you turn onto the road to go to Ft. Phil.
There were daily attacks on the woodcutters as well as haycutters to the east, and thefts of their livestock. On a high point to the south of the fort was what was called Pilot Hill. There were sentries there each day. This is probably around a mile and a half or so south of the fort, a very lonely spot to be. They were there, all alone, whose duty it was, through the use of flags, to tell the fort when the woodcutters were under attack, but often had to themselves be saved as Indians would try to attack them.
It was the raids on the woodcutters that set the scene for Fetterman's massacre, an old trick where decoys led by a young Crazy Horse, who basically mooned Fetterman and made them chase them up over the Sullivant Hills, over Lodge Trail Ridge, as Carrington ordered him specifically not to do, and ultimately to his death and the other 79 or so men with him. This was followed by Phillips' historic ride.
So the outcome of all this, called Red Cloud's War, was that Carrington was relieved of his command, and eventually the fort was ordered abandoned. The command was barely out of sight of the fort when Red Cloud and his Sioux allegedly rode into the fort and set it afire and destroyed the hated fort.
With the abandonment of Ft. Phil, the Bozeman Trail was not used, at least by the Army, and it is said that Red Cloud is the only Indian to have defeated the Army and driven them from his land.
So, yes, the LBH is one of the most written about battles in U.S. history and is certainly interesting, otherwise I wouldn't have studied it so much or made trips there and read so much about it, but in all due respect to Custer--and all of you folks--I find the history of the Bozeman Trail and surrounding related battles to be so much more interesting, covering more events than just a single battle.
Okay, I've said my piece and am ready to take my medicine. Thank you. |
|
|
|
pjsolla
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - August 26 2003 : 02:37:38 AM
|
| Frankboddn: Nicely done. Thought I was reading Dee Browns book all over again. |
|
|
|
Anonymous Poster2321
Forum Guest
Status: offline |
Posted - August 26 2003 : 12:06:37 PM
|
There is no proof that Brown and Fetterman killed each other or committed suicide. The post surgeon said Fetterman was slashed to death and the temple wound - like Brown's, like Custer's - was probably a coup de grace. Brown might have killed himself, no way to tell, is there?
There is no evidence other than a dinged bugle that such heroic antics by the bugler took place. He may have been a coward and was beaten to death with his own instrument for all anyone knows, and marked with a robe (a blizzard started) for later dismemberment when they forgot and left. He may have acted crazy. Who knows? Don't romaticize the west; it's the cause of all these problems of fact.
There is no evidence the Henry rifles hit anyone. Apparently there was lots of shell casings. They were among the first the mob came to, so they may have gotten the worst of it for that reason alone, the shell casings used by the Indians on the fleeing soldiers. But the story, properly fed to the press, might get the military updated gear. So let's tell that.
One of the civilians, Fisher or Isaacs, may or may not have had "hundreds" of arrows (one supposedly had 105 and people argue over which when the bodies couldn't be identified!!)in them (really: what tribe could afford that?)and the mutilations are no different than that which occurs today. It was freezing when the bodies were retrieved, and no doubt not undue effort was spent breaking the bodies apart (they froze solid overnight as did all parts cut off and laid out to feed the wolves) to bring them back home to be buried since they didn't want to be caught out in the open again. Under these circumstances - an unexpected horror putting the whole fort in danger - imaginations were no doubt pretty wild and prone to exaggeration.
Phillips didn't make his heroic ride alone, as I recall.
For the Wagon Box Fight we have the coldly objective accounts of who, again? The survivors? Isn't it wonderful that in the west when there is only one source, heroism and dead eye marksmanship abounds? And when there are other witnesses.......people tend to be people. |
|
|
|
frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 26 2003 : 3:32:03 PM
|
| Anonymous 2321: Well, gosh, I guess it's back to the drawing boards for me. I'll have to re-read the thousands of pages I've read about this subject. I hate it when the white guys lie and embellish. |
|
|
|
pjsolla
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - August 26 2003 : 5:47:35 PM
|
Frankboddn and 2321: This, as the Custer battle, has it's "tales".
I know that Finn Burnett said that Adolph Metzger, the bugler, was the only body untouched and that they, the Indians covered him with a buffalo robe for respect of his bravery. Yet, John Guthrie states that weeks after the fight, Crows and fur trappers said a "last survivor", who fought hand to hand (Metzger?) was carried off to the the Indian camp and totured to death. So, this probably requires more indepth studying by myself. Again, this whole thing could get as bad as trying to reconcile events from the LBH.
And I don't think Frankboddn was trying to intimate that Phillips rode alone. He was just stating that he rode in the blizzard. Frankboddn is well acquainted with the facts of Phillips ride.
Lastly, concerning Brown and Fetterman. Granted, those temporal gunshots could have been the "coup de grace" as was with Custer. I am not sold on that. They were fearful of being captured. But it also takes big ones to pull the trigger on yourself. Even if you are exchanging shots with someone staring you in the face. So, that also will require a bit more reading on my end.
Yes, this is quite the experience with this whole Ft. Kearny story. This was a chess match that Red Cloud ultimately won. He always said he would drive the white man from the area. That he did!
|
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 26 2003 : 7:09:59 PM
|
Pjsolla,
Let's not get petulant. None of the "1000's of pages" were written by guys in the fight. Everything you said could be one hundred percent true, but we cannot know. I know I come off as crotchy old naysayer (or worse, because I am), but keep a large keg of salt when reading all this stuff by enthused former housewives and guys who like to wear cowboy hats and participate in re-enactments between stirring tales emerging from their pen.
It is written that the Fetterman bugler dinged up his instrument clubbing Sioux AFTER RUNNING OUT OF AMMO. Really, wouldn't whatever weapon he had just been firing been better than that? How do you know he ran out of ammo? A lot of these guys were found and buried by their friends, somewhat less than coldly objective sources and looking for something to write the late chum's missus or mother about. Could be true....no proof though. And highly suspect.
The United States thought of itself as so unique in everything that even its tiny frontier battles had to be more gruesome, more comically heroic, more unbelievably portentious than anyone else's.
These are common frontier battles of the times, as in Africa, the Steppes, Asia and all the battles in South America (where the biggest war in this hemisphere was fought involving Paraguay)and people fight pretty much the same: badly and with great reluctance come the moment.
The plaque at the Wagon Box says something like 3000 Indians were defeated by four nuns, a heroic but wounded cowboy, a talking horse, and a six year old crippled cholora victim with great rifles. Or something just as ridiculous. Think about that. Three thousand annoyed hair dressers with soapy loofas could pretty much overrun anything if they wanted. And we believed the cowboy for a while. When the ludicrous numbers become too much, then we fall back on the old favorites: betrayal, evil civilian contractors, and cowardice. God wanted us to win, what could have prevented it?? Ah......it was him....
When we did win despite great odds, it had to be great heroism crossed upon superior Yankee know how and weaponry....of which we need more, Senator....Mr. President, in this budget. Sign here.
I just saw a Discovery Channel piece on the Hayfield Fight where one frontiersman won it all - probably due to science. The guy with a Henry saved the day. That actually makes more sense, but at least they were only up agains 'hundreds.'
Beacher Island stories just about always neglect to point out that they were rescued by the black cavalry. That's what drove the Cheyenne off. And far from being a select group of marksmen, some of them were taken to simply fill the roll. And proof is in the pudding: the Cheyenne weren't planning to leave till they found out the cavalry was a comin'.
Speaking of Henrys, has anyone ever checked to see what weapons the Sioux and Cheyenne used against Crook eight days previous to LBH? Anyone there mention jammed Springfields or rapid firing Indians? No? Was Sitting Bull holding back the 101st Dragoons for Custer? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
pjsolla
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - August 26 2003 : 8:51:42 PM
|
| DarkCloud: did you mean to direct your response to Frankboddn? |
|
|
|
frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 27 2003 : 12:16:28 AM
|
| PJsolla, I think his comments were directed at anyone whose opinion is different than his. |
|
|
|
pjsolla
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - August 27 2003 : 12:24:57 AM
|
| Frankboddn: Okay. When I saw the reference to "1000's of pages" I thought he was looking for you. In any event, I am doing more reading on the whole Ft. Kearny episode. Way to much material to go over, but interesting. |
|
|
|
Anonymous Poster2321
Forum Guest
Status: offline |
Posted - August 27 2003 : 12:38:08 AM
|
| Yes. Apologies to both of you. And yes, to anyone else who disagrees with me. Isn't that the point of a discussion board? |
|
|
|
frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 27 2003 : 12:52:21 AM
|
Dark Cloud, I guess I'll have to go back to the monument at the Wagon Box and read about the little old ladies or whatever instead of wasting my time reading books of firsthand accounts of participants, even though they're white, who obviously made their statements in an effort to make themselves seem more grandiose than they were.
And you're probably right. Those silly old Sioux probably covered Metzger's body with the robe so they could come back after some blizzard to finish their mutilation of him for his cowardly acts. But I guess it got so cold, they just plumb forgot all about him or thought they'd be better off back in their warm, comfy tepees with their honeys.
And let's not forget Wheatly and Fisher. I'm sure those two old goats probably couldn't hit the side of a barn, so what a waste of all that ammo they used. All for naught.
I suppose it's rather foolish of me to believe anything written by western novelist Terry C. Johnston, who admitted he's not a historian, but only a storyteller. I know he did his own research for his novels, but should they be believed? Of course in his book regarding Beecher Island, seems like he did mention that the killing of Roman Nose more or less broke the will of the Cheyenne, and that after awhile the Cheyenne left a small contingent to keep the scouts pinned down, but the fight was basically over. And, as you said, those scouts were really just a bunch of dregs they dragged out to fill the rolls, so could we really expect that caliber of men to have been able to hold off tens and tens of Cheyennes charging down that river and overrunning their sandbar? Forsythe had sent out I think two sets of two men for help, and it was one of them who ran across the Buffalo Soldiers who did come to their rescue. But could that be? I think Dark Cloud said that fact is almost never mentioned. I guess it's just a matter of what you read.
To pjsolla, I know efforts are made to keep things civil on this board, so I'll shut up now and make no more comments despite what fatuous statements might follow by others. |
|
|
|
pjsolla
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - August 27 2003 : 01:07:17 AM
|
So many non sequitur's, so little time!!!! Lets all take a deep breath and start over!! Lots of opinions. And when wording your responses, take time to read it over and see how it comes across. Sometimes, without meaning it, it attacks the person on the other end, not the issue. All of you out there have quite a bit of knowlege on the Custer and Fetterman battles. Lets not lose it to infighting.
And seriously, if somebody reads a post and feels it attacks someone, please speak out. We can all assist on this forum without ostracizing. Now, lets get back to business. And again, if you see a post and feel the author is being mean spirited or denigrating to another author, speak out. Like I said, sometimes things are said on here that just do not come across as intended.
And 2321 has apologized for any transgression he feels may have occured. I can applaud that. Now lets everybody keep it in check and keep exchanging info.
Why do I feel that I won't get my cookies and milk at lunch if this keeps up!! And then I'll get sent to the principals office!!! |
|
|
|
Anonymous Poster2321
Forum Guest
Status: offline |
Posted - August 27 2003 : 10:06:04 AM
|
(Having registered in the hope that the music might die, I keep forgetting to sign in. 2321 is Dark Cloud. I'm not a Native American, either. My last name is MacLeod and I'm a pain and the nickname is going on 50 years of use.)
Come now, Mr. Bodden. That's being silly. I use hyperbole but I think what actually happened is far more important than people's feelings.
Forsythe (?)'s "Rangers" at Beecher Island, supposed special forces of the West, did indeed have some sharp cookies and great shots. They also had the likes of a kid named Schlessinger, who was signed because he whined and who wasn't much of anything except a wonderful writer about the experience.
No doubt losing Roman Nose was a blow, but this battle - of absolutely zero importance to either side - just became, like most frontier battles, a festival of testosterone. And because the sole point and accomplishment of the ballyhooed rangers pretty much begins and ends in that fetid sand bar, something had to be made of it when it ended with both sides able to claim victory by their lights.
Western novels have to pander to people who get teary eyed at the thought they themselves belong to the same 'race' that conquered the West (who actually were the railroad lawyers back East and the railroads themselves, who banned guns)and they work within the myths. Otherwise, who would buy them?
No need to re-visit Wagon Box. There's a picture of the plaque on a website, surely. It does say 3k, which is absurd. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Fetterman v. Custer
