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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
 Posted - December 08 2009 : 12:29:41 PM
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What most people like to do is use someone else’s research when fabricating their own theories. This goes hand in hand with stated location over stated time. Quite naturally, it gets covered up by time and just gets written into the history as being that way, as some great oral tradition, no better, nor no worse than the Indian oral traditions themselves of the same period. Thus we have; it was, always has been stated that way, so it must have been that way - as the logical conclusion. But like most myths, the authors of the John Martin story forgot several things when they tried to place Martin as a specific place at a specific time and witnessing a specific event, the greatest of which was credibility.
Now for those who like to exercise their horse riding prowess, the next should find some comfort in finding out just how long it would have taken him to have rode the ‘implied’ distance from where everyone ‘thinks’ he departed from to where he met up with ‘Benteen’. Would say, 10 to 15 minutes do it?
The next exercise is in determining just how far Custer would have gone in that same amount of time, 10 to 15 minutes.
And we mustn’t forget Reno in all of this. Now granted here, 10 to 15 minutes is not a lot of time, so were not talking about mega time imposing some kind of gargantuan restrictions or granting the same leeway’s in figuring this out. So where was Reno?
According to Varnum’s sighting at the time the SL was just setting up, he observed the ‘white horse troop’ near point “2“. Take a look at Maguire’s map, now take a look at a USGS battlefield map of that same area. No matter how one does this, Varnum’s sighting comes out at point "2".
What is known, is that it took Reno and his men about 10 to 15 minutes to get to the SL position from Ford “A”. It took about 5 to 10 minutes or so to cross the river and form up again. And it took about 10 minutes to get to the ford from where they had departed from Custer. So in all some 25 to 35 minutes had passed from the time the two columns had separated.
From where they departed each other to point “2” is about 3 miles. Likewise it is about 3 miles from where they departed each other to where Reno supposedly deployed his SL. All rates of speed being about equal they should have been at those places just as Varnum’s sighting at point “2” indicated. And indeed they were.
When one extrapolates the mph from the mileage and the time, one gets an average speed for both columns of 6 mph. If Martin’s speed back to Benteen’s is the same, then Martin does indeed arrive back at Benteen’s position in about 15 minutes from the time he was sent. And Custer likewise would have been about a mile and half the other way in his advance to the north, and would have just passed point “2”.
Now a conundrum arises, for within a few minutes of Martin’s arrival Benteen witnesses Reno’s retreat, because they are not that far from the river when Martin reaches them, if memory serves me about 1/4 mile. The other thing here is, Custer has just passed point “2” at this same moment in time and Varnum has just looked up and seen the ’white horse troop’.
The question here is: Was Reno’s charge and his retreat all conducted within a couple of minutes as this timing clearly indicates? Or was Martin sent from somewhere else?
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 09 2009 : 08:47:45 AM
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Martin states at RCOI that it took him 3/4 to 1 hour from the time that the adjunct gave him the order until he met Benteen. The 15 to 20 minutes is from the point he saw Reno engaged below in the valley which is 1/2 to 3/4 hours after he began his mission on his tired horse. Martin uses a disclaimer that he did not have watch. It would be a good thing to know what he saw rather than just an engagement.
If his one hour estimate is correct that would not include the time they rode to get away from the view point to the writing of the note. So it is quite possible that there is 3/4 to 1 hour before Martin sees Reno engaged. Martin does not describe what Reno is doing. Martin does state that Reno was in the process of crossing to his side of the river when he arrives with Benteen which also has to be some time after he meets Benteen.
As far as the horses there are to many variables to make a reasonable estimate other than a wide range. Martin states his horse was "kinder tired" and later I believe moving at a jog trot. Martin states Custer was moving at a gallop. Whatever the location Martin states he went uphill when he started back. Custer was going downhill so it seems both gaits are reasonable. Jog trot uphill and gallop down hill.
A jog trot is less than a trot and only slightly faster than a walk if at all. It does not matter how fast the rider wants to go if the horse is tired and Martin made it clear his horse was tired. If Custer was moving at a gallop or a western lope it would be closer to 8 mph.
The timing has a larger range than 15 to 20 minutes and is consistence with any theory one choses. There is time from the view point to the writing of the note in which Reno is traveling down the valley. The time from the note to meeting Benteen is 3/4 to 1 hour according to Martin, there is time to read the note and then show it to others, and there is time in which Martin describes that Reno is crossing the river to his side from contact with Benteen to the location that Martin observes Reno crossing the river. Benteen moved at a trot according to his testimony.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on December 09 2009 08:57:53 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 09 2009 : 09:17:30 AM
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Eventually, he learned the horse had been shot, where and when not known.
Also, I remind that the meeting with Boston - upon which this thread's theory and others depend for timing - only appeared thirty years after the fact and is highly, highly dubious. Martin made money on stage, and new revelations by him kept the public interested. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 09 2009 : 6:15:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
What most people like to do is use someone else’s research when fabricating their own theories. This goes hand in hand with stated location over stated time. Quite naturally, it gets covered up by time and just gets written into the history as being that way, as some great oral tradition, no better, nor no worse than the Indian oral traditions themselves of the same period. Thus we have; it was, always has been stated that way, so it must have been that way - as the logical conclusion. But like most myths, the authors of the John Martin story forgot several things when they tried to place Martin as a specific place at a specific time and witnessing a specific event, the greatest of which was credibility.
Now for those who like to exercise their horse riding prowess, the next should find some comfort in finding out just how long it would have taken him to have rode the ‘implied’ distance from where everyone ‘thinks’ he departed from to where he met up with ‘Benteen’. Would say, 10 to 15 minutes do it?
The next exercise is in determining just how far Custer would have gone in that same amount of time, 10 to 15 minutes.
And we mustn’t forget Reno in all of this. Now granted here, 10 to 15 minutes is not a lot of time, so were not talking about mega time imposing some kind of gargantuan restrictions or granting the same leeway’s in figuring this out. So where was Reno?
According to Varnum’s sighting at the time the SL was just setting up, he observed the ‘white horse troop’ near point “2“. Take a look at Maguire’s map, now take a look at a USGS battlefield map of that same area. No matter how one does this, Varnum’s sighting comes out at point "2".
What is known, is that it took Reno and his men about 10 to 15 minutes to get to the SL position from Ford “A”. It took about 5 to 10 minutes or so to cross the river and form up again. And it took about 10 minutes to get to the ford from where they had departed from Custer. So in all some 25 to 35 minutes had passed from the time the two columns had separated.
From where they departed each other to point “2” is about 3 miles. Likewise it is about 3 miles from where they departed each other to where Reno supposedly deployed his SL. All rates of speed being about equal they should have been at those places just as Varnum’s sighting at point “2” indicated. And indeed they were.
When one extrapolates the mph from the mileage and the time, one gets an average speed for both columns of 6 mph. If Martin’s speed back to Benteen’s is the same, then Martin does indeed arrive back at Benteen’s position in about 15 minutes from the time he was sent. And Custer likewise would have been about a mile and half the other way in his advance to the north, and would have just passed point “2”.
Now a conundrum arises, for within a few minutes of Martin’s arrival Benteen witnesses Reno’s retreat, because they are not that far from the river when Martin reaches them, if memory serves me about 1/4 mile. The other thing here is, Custer has just passed point “2” at this same moment in time and Varnum has just looked up and seen the ’white horse troop’.
The question here is: Was Reno’s charge and his retreat all conducted within a couple of minutes as this timing clearly indicates? Or was Martin sent from somewhere else?
You have touched upon a critical point that once untapped, will do much to rectify the many grevious errors presumed to be truths by so many.
In order to assolve the surviving members of Custer's command several untruths had to be delivered as truth.
A. Time: in order to cover Reno's/Benteen's failure to render aid to their commander, times regarding the skirmish line and how long Reno quaked on his hill were reduced. The skirmish line was a matter of minutes when lack of leadership caused the men to panic and fall back. Reno's inability to move once on Reno Hill was several hours; not an hour and a half as supposed.
B. Custer had to be portrayed as a glory seeking and vain martinet who lived only to glorify himself and, who entered the battle with no plans and not a clue of what he was getting into.
Both points were false yet both perspectives were overwhelmingly successful. Unable to defend himself, class distinction used to nullify civilian and non-officer testimony, the results were certainly no surprise.
Once again, a wonderful job! |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2009 : 07:21:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
What most people like to do is use someone else’s research when fabricating their own theories. This goes hand in hand with stated location over stated time. Quite naturally, it gets covered up by time and just gets written into the history as being that way, as some great oral tradition, no better, nor no worse than the Indian oral traditions themselves of the same period. Thus we have; it was, always has been stated that way, so it must have been that way - as the logical conclusion. But like most myths, the authors of the John Martin story forgot several things when they tried to place Martin as a specific place at a specific time and witnessing a specific event, the greatest of which was credibility.
Now for those who like to exercise their horse riding prowess, the next should find some comfort in finding out just how long it would have taken him to have rode the ‘implied’ distance from where everyone ‘thinks’ he departed from to where he met up with ‘Benteen’. Would say, 10 to 15 minutes do it?
The next exercise is in determining just how far Custer would have gone in that same amount of time, 10 to 15 minutes.
And we mustn’t forget Reno in all of this. Now granted here, 10 to 15 minutes is not a lot of time, so were not talking about mega time imposing some kind of gargantuan restrictions or granting the same leeway’s in figuring this out. So where was Reno?
According to Varnum’s sighting at the time the SL was just setting up, he observed the ‘white horse troop’ near point “2“. Take a look at Maguire’s map, now take a look at a USGS battlefield map of that same area. No matter how one does this, Varnum’s sighting comes out at point "2".
What is known, is that it took Reno and his men about 10 to 15 minutes to get to the SL position from Ford “A”. It took about 5 to 10 minutes or so to cross the river and form up again. And it took about 10 minutes to get to the ford from where they had departed from Custer. So in all some 25 to 35 minutes had passed from the time the two columns had separated.
From where they departed each other to point “2” is about 3 miles. Likewise it is about 3 miles from where they departed each other to where Reno supposedly deployed his SL. All rates of speed being about equal they should have been at those places just as Varnum’s sighting at point “2” indicated. And indeed they were.
When one extrapolates the mph from the mileage and the time, one gets an average speed for both columns of 6 mph. If Martin’s speed back to Benteen’s is the same, then Martin does indeed arrive back at Benteen’s position in about 15 minutes from the time he was sent. And Custer likewise would have been about a mile and half the other way in his advance to the north, and would have just passed point “2”.
Now a conundrum arises, for within a few minutes of Martin’s arrival Benteen witnesses Reno’s retreat, because they are not that far from the river when Martin reaches them, if memory serves me about 1/4 mile. The other thing here is, Custer has just passed point “2” at this same moment in time and Varnum has just looked up and seen the ’white horse troop’.
The question here is: Was Reno’s charge and his retreat all conducted within a couple of minutes as this timing clearly indicates? Or was Martin sent from somewhere else?
You have touched upon a critical point that once untapped, will do much to rectify the many grevious errors presumed to be truths by so many.
In order to assolve the surviving members of Custer's command several untruths had to be delivered as truth.
A. Time: in order to cover Reno's/Benteen's failure to render aid to their commander, times regarding the skirmish line and how long Reno quaked on his hill were reduced. The skirmish line was a matter of minutes when lack of leadership caused the men to panic and fall back. Reno's inability to move once on Reno Hill was several hours; not an hour and a half as supposed.
B. Custer had to be portrayed as a glory seeking and vain martinet who lived only to glorify himself and, who entered the battle with no plans and not a clue of what he was getting into.
Both points were false yet both perspectives were overwhelmingly successful. Unable to defend himself, class distinction used to nullify civilian and non-officer testimony, the results were certainly no surprise.
Once again, a wonderful job!
Neither your A or B has to do with John Martin unless you believe he was part of the conspiracy on time. What did John Martin have to do with B? No one except Reno would be allowed to defend themselves at a Reno Court of Inquiry. The court made that clear regarding statements beneficial to Benteen.
I don't understand why you keep bringing up references to a proceeding that never took place. The Army never for their own reasons investigated the actions of the 7th cavalry. One officer, Major Reno requested a court of inquiry regarding his own actions. He was the only one that could cross examine witnesses. If one understands the concept regarding the nature of a court of inquiry then comments made by some such as Benteen make more sense. He was never going to be able to present his own case. He could not ask question. So he took advantage of being asked a question and then giving a non responsive answer. The testimony where he states he believes Custer was dead is an example of Benteen interjecting his opinion when not asked.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2009 : 07:39:34 AM
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You have touched upon a critical point that once untapped, will do much to rectify the many grevious errors presumed to be truths by so many.
Doesn't untapped mean not utilized. Maybe we should look it up in our dictionaries at our homes.
Instead of diverting from Benteen's thread topic maybe you should stick to the content. The first two responses stuck with the Martin theme then you Joe have to divert it to things such as "Custer had to be portrayed as a glory seeking and vain martinet who lived only to glorify himself and, who entered the battle with no plans and not a clue of what he was getting into."
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2009 : 10:06:20 AM
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Yet again, Wiggs uses a word that means the exact opposite of his intent. This message board is full of such embarrassments. And they're not going away.
His meaning required him to say "tapped." As is, he's saying something like 'you have made a critical discovery that, once unknown, will change the world.' Words are just sounds and letters to him, and have weak or no meaning. A sentence dense with type he thinks dripping with import and automatically displays his smarts, because he assumes others are just like him. Writing is utterly beyond him, and his stupidity, propped up by his baseless sense of adequacy, just keeps the evidence coming.
He also doesn't seem to understand the conditions of a keg tapped (open) and untapped (closed).
Atop this, he's grandiose in his ignorance, with every point critical, and it's exposure likely to change the world. He rarely grasps any point, but if it is a point he's just one of the few who've never been exposed to it before. If it isn't a point at all the shocked silence from posters allows him to think he has made one and trill on about it. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on December 10 2009 10:08:04 AM |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2009 : 10:25:40 AM
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quote:
You have touched upon a critical point that once untapped, will do much to rectify the many grevious errors presumed to be truths by so many.
In order to assolve the surviving members of Custer's command several untruths had to be delivered as truth.
A. Time: in order to cover Reno's/Benteen's failure to render aid to their commander, times regarding the skirmish line and how long Reno quaked on his hill were reduced. The skirmish line was a matter of minutes when lack of leadership caused the men to panic and fall back. Reno's inability to move once on Reno Hill was several hours; not an hour and a half as supposed.
B. Custer had to be portrayed as a glory seeking and vain martinet who lived only to glorify himself and, who entered the battle with no plans and not a clue of what he was getting into.
Both points were false yet both perspectives were overwhelmingly successful. Unable to defend himself, class distinction used to nullify civilian and non-officer testimony, the results were certainly no surprise.
Right you are, Joe. Concerning “time” for instance.
1) Those today still have Martin departing Custer’s battalion on his way back to Benteen somewhere around the head of Cedar Coulee. Now any ‘martinet’ with a ‘half-brain’ could figure this one out. How long is it going to take Martin to go from there back to within a ½ mile or so from ford “A” where Benteen said he met Martin? Martin said at one time, 10 to 15 minutes. Which unbelievably supports the head of ’CEDAR COULEE’ as the place where he left from. YET this very timing tells us that Reno’s charge down the valley and his retreat from that valley all occurred within minutes of those stated events. To believe one and not the other, or to find some quality reason not to believe the other is what one would have to do. Yet this on the face of it would be quite impossible if not implausible.
2) As a child I always loved the merry-go-round. Now we find a very adult perversion of this phenomenon. And now I don’t enjoy the vertigo possessed by the fanatics. The merry-go-round? Is none other than throwing out the possibility that Martin’s time was 45 minutes to 1 hour instead of the 10 to 15 minutes as Martin well knew the latter was correct. But possession being what it is, lets see if the ghost can be coaxed out of this one.
One known constant is Varnum’s sighting of the white horse troop at point “2”, this occurring at the very moment when Reno’s SL deployed, and according to the original timing was about when Martin caught up with Benteen. BUT WAIT, now we have to deal with an EXTRA ½ hour to 45 minutes to complete Martin’s ride. And that’s not all. One simply must move THE PLACE to make this work, or it becomes not only absurd, but insanely preposterous. But where does one have to move THIS PLACE TO? Easy, add 1 hour to Martin’s 6mph average ride time from where he met Benteen and that should be the place, according to the timing where he woulda, shoulda, coulda been sent back from. And that place not only according to this timing, but Martin himself, was what? That’s right - 5 miles from where he met Benteen. It was 5 miles, going 6 miles an hour, which according to this timing would have taken him 50 minutes. Now someone get a measuring device and tell me how far is the head of Cedar Coulee, or the confluence of Cedar Coulee & MTC, or for that matter 600 yard from MTF… from where Martin met Benteen; this according to legend being about ½ mile from fd “A”. If someone can get 5 miles going over the “back trail” out of any one of these and I’ll suck an egg.
Now not only do those who like to indulge in this ritual of Russian roulette, ever place a new bullet into the ever revolving chamber, they keep placing the wrong caliber into chamber and blowing up the gun in the process, and continually missing the intended target of their brains. And what they do not realize is that there was “two sides to every story” and that only one side of the story was correct, the other was a fabrication or a lie. As these “idiots” march forward in their quest to “paint” Custer’s portrait in glib shadows of ever darkening gray, they will take every opportunity to point out the ’differences’ in ’testimony’ which quite simply was as I have explained. Now then: If it was CEDAR COULEE head or tail in any way shape or form from where Martin departed, or for the matter from near MTF, then Martin’s ride back DID NOT TAKE LONGER THAN 10 TO 15 MINUTES TO REACH BENTEEN. AND Reno’s Charge down that valley and retreat from same occurred within minutes of each other. (Period)
Now lets look down the barrel of that 1873 Colt revolver and see if there is a correct bullet in the chamber.
From where Varnum sighted the white horse troop, “point 2”; how much further did Custer have to go before sending back Martin? DOH…. That’s correct, he had to go at least another two miles from beyond “point 2” before sending back Martin to make up the entire 5 miles Martin had to go back to Benteen. This according to Girards timing, which comes out in short to 6.6 mph for Custer’s gait speed, would have taken Custer from point “2” to that 2 mile point about 20 minutes. Now what conundrum does this timing present to those ‘idiots’? It quite simply means that Reno’s valley fight (SL deploy), from the time Varnum sighted the white horse troop at point “2” to the time that Martin met up with Benteen had taken anywhere from 1 hour 5 minutes to 1 hour 20 minutes from the time the SL set up until Martin met Benteen. This means Reno’s valley fight (excluding the charge down the valley to the SL) TOOK THAT LONG. BECAUSE, ACCORDING TO THE QUOTE “EXPERTS” with the Russian Roulette revolvers, it took even a longer time for Benteen to get to the bluffs to view Reno’s retreat after meeting Martin.
Both Reno and Benteen played us for the martinet’s we were and still are to this day, and we still keep following those same ’IDIOTS’ WHO KEEP PUTTING THE WRONG CALIBER OF BULLET INTO THE GUN AND MISSING THEIR BRAINS. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2009 : 11:01:31 AM
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Benteen here is RCOI and Martin's discussion of times. Clearly you have erred on where Martin states his location for the 15 - 20 minutes. So that makes you and Joe both in error.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on December 10 2009 11:05:56 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2009 : 11:44:06 AM
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So Benteen (Joe) gives us the times.
What is your time from when Custer watered for 10 minutes according to Martin's testimomy to the point takes Martin 45 minutes to 1 hour to return?
We know it is Martin's testimony that it took 45 minutes to 1 hour to return.
What is you time for Martin with Benteen to arrive at the point where he sees Reno leaving the valley?
Add those up and tell us your opinion of the total time.
I'll give mine.
total watering time (Martin RCOI) 10 minutes
Opinion on times to return point 30 to 45 minutes
Return to Benteen (Martin RCOI) 45 to 60 minutes
Opinion Benteen with Martin 15 to 20 minutes
to seeing Reno leaving valley
That would leave a range from 1 hour 40 minutes to 2 hours 15 minutes in my opinion based upon Martin's testimony alone for the time from leaving Custer to climbing the bluffs. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2009 : 6:21:37 PM
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Benteen, there is nothing that I may add to your definitive research which is evident by your thorough and extremely plausible thread. Sometime I almost felt myself believing that the battle occurred on a land other than its actual occurrence site. when one reads the testimony of Benteen and Reno you become mesmerized by the impossibilities of their being capable of doing anything to assist Custer. Search for valleys 15 miles from the battlefield, skirmish lines were a heavy loss of ammunition was sustained calling for a retreat/charge to get more ammo. Yet, when the ammunition was secured, little of it was taken and, still, another hour transpired before Weir wandered away.
I began to believe that great distances and rough terrain separated the units to such a degree that it was impossible to help each other. Then I visited the battlefield and was immediately shocked by what I saw. There was nothing to prevent Benteen and Reno from assisting their comrades but air and, perhaps fear.
It was a short time afterwords that I began to do a much deeper act of research and began to discover that many things simple did not add up. Needless to say, that I also discovered that their exist a hardcore bunch of enthusiast (to use a polite term) who have been sucked in by R.C.O.I. to such a degree that anything stated to the contrary will stir up the most vile responses.
Isn't it amazing that this inquiry was initiated in an era when racism, class distinction, and the horrific extermination of the American Indian was not only acceptable practices but virtually condoned by the government of the United States. "Manifest Destiny" being nothing more than a "Carte Blanche" from (allegedly) God to kill Indian men, women, and children.
Yet the aforementioned "enthusiasts" insist, nay, demand that we believe the R.C.O.I., (an intricate part of that same odious racism)to be a honest, good, and fair attempt to explain why Custer was defeated.
Why is there so much fear in some individuals when it comes to discovering information that diverts from their own beliefs? |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2009 : 7:53:03 PM
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So Joe exactly what first hand source do you think Anonymous Benteen has as the source for his post.
"Now for those who like to exercise their horse riding prowess, the next should find some comfort in finding out just how long it would have taken him to have rode the ‘implied’ distance from where everyone ‘thinks’ he departed from to where he met up with ‘Benteen’. Would say, 10 to 15 minutes do it?"
Let's see the reference to an original source for his above statement.
So now Joe wants us to believe that Martin's testimony regarding times is in error rather than Anonymous Benteen's memory of any statement made by Martin. That should be easy to produce the reference source for the original material.
I know it is the " a critical point that once untapped, will do much to rectify the many grevious errors presumed to be truths by so many."
Either produce the reference or we will justified in believing it to be a false statement meant to distract from the truth rather than error. If not Martin's sworn testimony is about as an original source as one can get for Martin's time from where he left the adjunct to his meeting with Benteen.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2009 : 7:59:13 PM
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Isn't it amazing that this inquiry was initiated in an era when racism, class distinction, and the horrific extermination of the American Indian was not only acceptable practices but virtually condoned by the government of the United States. "Manifest Destiny" being nothing more than a "Carte Blanche" from (allegedly) God to kill Indian men, women, and children.
Exactly when in your brilliant wisdom would a Reno requested court of inquiry be initated?
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2009 : 8:09:12 PM
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Let's tighten things up.
No 10 to 15 minutes in Marin's 1908 account
quote:
Then command "Attention" "Fours right" "Column right" "March" was given and command went forward down off the hill and then "Column left" and whole command passed down ravine toward dry creek.4 Martin thinks he continued about 1/2 mile farther when [Custer's Adjudant, Lt. W.W.] Cooke halted and wrote message to Benteen and gave to Martin and then Custer spoke to Martin and said: "Trumpeter, go back on our trail and see if you can discover Benteen and give him this message. If you see no danger come back to us, but if you find Indians in your way stay with Benteen and return with him and when you get back to us report." Martin started back on trail before got up the hill (that is up to high point where whole command had halted) he heard heavy firing in the direction of his right. It might also have been Reno's fire which he heard as that would have been to his right. He afterward supposed was at Ford B. After this he met Boston Custer [George A. Custer's youngest brother] going to join the command. When Martin got to top of ridge he looked down in village and saw Indians charging like swarm of bees toward the ford, waving buffalo hides. At the same time he saw Custer retreating up the open country in the direction of the battlefield. (He did not tell this at the Reno court of inquiry because he was not asked the question. He thinks that in Reno court of inquiry it was not desired that he should tell all he knew and said that afterward he never was invited by officers to discuss what he knew of the battle and never volunteered to do so.) The Indians were firing straggling shots. About this time Martin was fired on by Indians in the bluffs between him and river and they hit his horse on hip, and blood spattered on Martin's back.5
Martin now rode fast and met Benteen on Benteen Creek and came back with him. Martin says when he gave message to Benteen, Benteen asked: "Where is General Custer?" Martin said: "About 3 miles from here." Benteen said, "Is [Custer] being attacked or not?" and Martin said: "Yes, [he] is being attacked" and said no more. Martin is positive that he did not tell Benteen ... that Indians were "skiddaddling.". . . Ask Martin if when he returned and did not see Reno if he saw any Indians where he afterwards learned Reno to be. No - saw neither Indians nor Reno nor any fighting.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on December 10 2009 8:10:11 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2009 : 8:32:03 PM
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From Custer in 76 Walter Camps notes page 103
Interview with John Martin May 4, 1910
Martin said Cooke told him to follow the trail and after he had gone 500 or 600 yards or perhaps 3/4 mile, I got on the same ridge from which Genl. Custer saw the village the first time and on looking down I saw Major Reno and his command already engaged, but I did not pay attention to that. Think from the time he saw Reno he was 15 to 20 minutes getting up to Benteen.
Thinks he left Custer 2 miles north of Reno Hill. After he left Custer he traveled uphill for some distance. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2009 : 8:41:24 PM
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One more thing Benteen, I wish to thank you for your willingness to venture into areas of possibilities without hesitation although you subject yourself to censure. I have been researching the battle for over twenty years and I must say I find your avenues of information to be fruitful and invigorating.
I believe there are guests out there who wish to join our discussions but may feel slightly intimidated for what ever reason. Please feel free to celebrate with us new roads into an old adventure. |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2009 : 10:07:59 PM
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Joe,
Possibilities is what its all about. If you don't discuss them you can't even begin to get past the myths.
For example:
Martin stated, May 14, 1910:
quote:
When I got up on the elevation I looked behind and saw Custer's command over on the flat and Indians over in the village riding toward the river and waving buffalo hides. The battalion appeared at this time to be falling back from the river. This is the last I saw of the 5 companies alive and it was only a hasty glance.
This of course was just prior to his observing Reno's retreat from that same hill. Martin's accounts were clear as to time and place. Here as he finished ascending the hill, he looked back and observed Custer's battalion "falling back from the river", this about 5 to 6 minutes or so after he had departed from Custer. As Martin rides further and goes over the top of the hill he observes Reno's men in retreat. He did report seeing them in SL, which would naturally have been part of an orderly retreat.
Interestingly enough this same phenomenon is reported by none other than Curley, when he reported observing the Crow's, Reno's men and Custer's men all in flight (retreat) at the same moment in time.
Timing sequence from the Varnum's sighting? Time approximate: 30 to 35 minutes.
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 11 2009 : 11:13:40 AM
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Benteen I agree with you on discussing all possibilities and your posted research refutes your statement below and it is similar to the one I posted for Martin's October 24,1908 interview by Camp.That is certainly good sign of your integrity to post that. I think your memory had jumped to the sighting location that Martin saw Reno and then his time estimate from that point to Benteen.
Now for those who like to exercise their horse riding prowess, the next should find some comfort in finding out just how long it would have taken him to have rode the ‘implied’ distance from where everyone ‘thinks’ he departed from to where he met up with ‘Benteen’. Would say, 10 to 15 minutes do it?
You still have a theme though because you next select times in your opinion that compress total time. There is no statement by Martin regard the time it took to get back on the elevation.
"about 5 to 6 minutes or so after he had departed from Custer" is only your opinion.
Also there is no times given by Martin between seeing Custer and then seeing Reno. How fast do you think Martin was going if Custer made it to the river crossing in the same time. Using your figures it would have to be less than 5 to 6 minutes from the time Custer gave Martin the verbal order to go back. Then Custer would have to ride to the river crossing, engage and and in the process of being repulsed in 5 to 6 minutes?
I think you need to increase the length of time to greater than 5 to 6 minutes or else Custer is repulsed in less than 5 minutes while Reno is still fighting in the valley.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on December 11 2009 11:24:17 AM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 11 2009 : 9:01:56 PM
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| That would do much to explain the "thrashing" of Curley's statements. Discredit him and you automatically exclude valuable information that he possessed. |
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John Martin, of times, places and events.
