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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
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 Posted - October 31 2009 : 11:01:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
Ranger, I hate to say this because I do like you. But you sound like a man with a paper head. At least that is better than a pinhead.
First the Billiard remark was in reference to Reno's clash that brought him up on charges, when he struck the man with his cue stick.
When you divert from the topic it is buyer beware.
quote:
"Read Wallace again he was states he was only there for one event of orders given to Reno. The first to move forward and any following he does not claim to have heard."
Read it again Wallace does not claim to have heard the division of the regiment which is the first order in the movement to contact. Below is what Wallace states he heard which is not what you state he heard.
And Reno gave those to you, both at the RCOI and in his Official Report. And that FIRST order that Cooke brought to him was... AGAIN:
1st Cooke order,
1) I there received an order from Lt. Cooke to move my command to the front. Wallace testifies to what he heard not some first order which was probably the division of the regiment not to come over.If you read Girard and like his statements then you would see that he states he never sees Cook do anything
2) I moved forward in accordance with the orders received from Lt. Cooke to the head of the column.
THAT WAS ALL THERE WAS TO IT. Nada, Zip, not one other thing, just "move your command forward....to the head of the column."
And this was ALL that WALLACE heard, by his own admission.That is a false statement you should be better than that. You left out charge them which is to bring them to battle
And he ADDED? Is it any wonder that he had too many different, verbs, adjectives, nouns and pronouns to explain his idiotic notion of what he should have heard, as opposed to what he actually heard? The man outright lied, and the court knew he was lying at the time, and they did not call him on it. The only time was on the question of the pronoun "I" or "we" and it was never settled at that court. Yet look below do you see "I" or "we" in association with the "support" issue? And how about the word "he", and when that didn't,couldn't or wouldn't work? "others" in an attempt to grasp another straw from thin air. Indeed exactly what he heard was the same thing GIRARD heard for that 2nd order. And he heard Custer DIRECTLY give that order to Reno. Never once, not one time did he mention a "village" as Reno heard in his 2nd order through Cooke.
This is where your logic and conclusion fail again. Reno can not and did not put in his report what Wallace heard only Wallace could testify to what he heard. The following makes no sense to me so I won't comment till I get to my quotes
quote:
Lt. Wallace’s 3 statements to the court concerning Reno’s orders when examined together, this is the result:
That Major Reno was 1) “ordered forward”, 2)“to go Forward”, 3) to “follow the Indians” - 1)“as fast as he could go“, 2) “as fast as you can“, 3) “as fast as you think proper” - “and charge them”, “wherever you find them” [stated twice, omitted once], 1) “and the others would support him”, 2) “and we will support you”, 3) “and he will support you”
As for the rest of your comments, I would suggest that you choose a better tag line to follow. Because the only SOLDIER that day who said "bring them to battle" was GIRARD. Actually I have heard many soldiers state it and it is quite common for the advance of a movement to contact to fix and bring to battle. I don't believe any soldier said they heard bring them to battle that would be so basic that they all would know what to do. Maybe a civilian would say that. Did you err on Girards status? And he said that in reference to what Custer's DIRECT orders to Reno were. And you sir simply must believe that Wallace did lie here, and that Girard's observations and statements are true; because you continually have used Custer's direct orders to Reno as heard by Girard countless times, as recorded below.
You mean soldier Girard or some other Girard?
Posted - August 13 2009 : 09:40:18 AM Responsibility at the LBH, page 40
quote:
There were hundreds of Indians waiting in the creek channel. It would been impossible to cross it on line even with no Indians in it. The Indians appeared as they stopped. The shots hitting the village were the over estimation of the range by the troopers shooting at those Indians.
I would ask you for your sources but there is none for:
Joe's treasure "The actual village did not respond until skirmish rounds flashed through the tops of village teepee's. Then, and only then, did mainstream warriors began responding toward Reno's position."
You don't even get Reno's orders. It was to bring them to battle. He did that and they stayed until they won. If Reno had caused panic and the village fled he would have disobeyed his orders.
I hope we understand basic tactics by the end of this post. The idea of a charge is to bring them to battle. Simple Some think Reno was to bring them to battle while Custer moved across MTF
Ditto, page 41 Posted - September 09 2009 : 09:33:54 AM
quote:
You don't even get Reno's orders. It was to bring them to battle. He did that and they stayed until they won. If Reno had caused panic and the village fled he would have disobeyed his orders.
Ditto maybe you are starting to get it. Reno's charge did not have to go through the Big Village only bring them to battle which he did
and then you wrote
Joe wrote this
To say that if Reno had caused panic in the village if he stayed would be a disobeying of orders is incomprehensible.
I wrote this
They = Indians Joe in "He did that and they stayed until they won." How did you change it he=Reno in "if he stayed".
Another Joe Jewell
"Military annalists and pundits, for eons, have realized that panic among enemy forces is tantamount to sure victory. Certainly you can agree with me that Custer desired a victory, no matter what orders he may or may not have issued."
I would guess that Terry and Custer were afraid of the Indians fleeing. If all Custer wanted to do was cause them to panic and flee than he only needed to build large fires on the divide and sit there for a day or two drinking coffee.
Reno was sent with a small enough force to bring them to battle. If panic was the goal then bring the whole regiment together.
See if you can understand what I am saying is the advance is not to large as to cause them to run it was small enough to bring them to battle. A key here is that the "Big Village" has not been discovered.
Posted - October 25 2009 : 8:41:10 PM
quote:
I believe Custer thought the Indians would run and had no expectation that Reno could hold them. He had only to bring them to battle or drive them. Thanks to someone on another board I now believe Custer did not intend a flank attack or else he could have done it. Seeing the size of the village I believe his objective was to let Reno and Benteen drive them from the village and Custer would block them from crossing the river. The new objective drive them towards Terry, kill a few, and capture the village.
So are you getting it now. Bring them to battle or drive them were the outcomes of an advance
Unfortunately there were to many Indians for Reno to drive them but he did bring them to battle. There were to many Indians willing to fight and Custer got them to battle.
So are you getting it now. Bring them to battle or drive them were the outcomes of an advance
Posted - September 11 2008 : 09:31:30 AM , Custer’s Plan, page 1
quote:
My thought is that Custer did not have a plan rather a tactical approach which was broader than a specific plan would call for. Benteen's approach was for scattered villages, Reno was after fleeing Indians, Custer was recon in force, and the packtrain was in the dark just trying to keep up and get close.
I think an actual plan would be more specific. I don't see much difference in all opinions here which is unusual.
What did you think you saw in this quote. It actually explains that it is a tactical plan not some interpreter quote that I am referring to. Care to point out what I missed here?
Posted - September 20 2009 : 9:08:11 PM, Custer’s Plan, page 1
quote:
Since Reno hit the village side of the river and engaged bringing the Indians to battle what 3/4s of the regiment are left. Benteen was on a recon in force/blocking mission and Custer went north. Approximately 1/4 of the regiment was with the packtrain and only had to follow wherever. Of the attacking force Custer had 5/11 of the troops along with scouts and HQ. Reno had a little over 3/11 with the scouts, and Benteen had 3/11 of the troops.
So are you getting it now. Bring them to battle or drive them were the outcomes of an advance
Custer was under Terry's plan and took advantage of loopholes to not follow it. Once on his own, mistakes forced moving forward without proper recon. The only plan left was try to stop them from running away to the south and drive them toward Terry. There was no plan to have all 12 companies engaged at one time.
Posted - September 30 2007 : 7:01:01 PM, Custer’s Command Decisions page 2
quote:
Reno was ordered to chase fleeing Indians not to attack a village of thousands. He was to bring them to battle. The problem was there was to many that game to that battle for the divided u regiment to handle. The support needed to applied to the Indians brought to battle and within one half hour or it would be of no value. Reno gave Custer that one half hour and the support did not arrive.
So are you getting it now. Bring them to battle or drive them were the outcomes of an advance
I chose one half hour because anything longer allowed to many Indians to get ready and come from all over the village. Surprise would be a key element of this type of an attack. I don't blame Custer because it was the terrain and the large number of Indians that defeated this attack. Some days you lose and on this day the Indians won. Its that simple.
Posted - October 05 2007 : 10:53:59 AM, Custer’s Command Decisions, page 2
quote:
I think Reno made the right decision to form the skirmish line. He did not have fleeing Indians to contend with once the village was observed. He was faced with overwhelming odds He could deploy the carbine rather than the revolver Defensive positions can withstand larger numbers of opposing forces then offensive attacks
His orders were to bring them to battle not scatter a village
A retreat is appropriate if the alternative is annihilation
I would suggest that Reno's whole battalion could have been annihilated by riding into the village in a shorter amount of time than the half hour he gave Custer to deliver the promised support.
Reno was told to stop the running Indians and bring them to battle. When writing after the fact word selection becomes problematic. If Custer truly knew there was a village that could be struck then he made a serious error in splitting up his forces. Why not take the whole regiment on the same path that Reno traveled. There would be no way for the village to pack up and leave before he got there and it was the best terrain for cavalry to operate. Recon from 15 miles leaves a lot to be desired in the 1870's. Custer found that out.
Posted - October 08 2007 : 09:43:06 AM, Custer’s Command Decisions, Page 2
quote:
Reno was told to stop the running Indians and bring them to battle. When writing after the fact word selection becomes problematic. If Custer truly knew there was a village that could be struck then he made a serious error in splitting up his forces. Why not take the whole regiment on the same path that Reno traveled. There would be no way for the village to pack up and leave before he got there and it was the best terrain for cavalry to operate. Recon from 15 miles leaves a lot to be desired in the 1870's. Custer found that out.
What the heck do you think a charge is for? Bring them to lunch? The bolded section is correct. I chose bring them to battle because it is the military objective of the order given to Reno. I use it because others state he did not charge the village. The orders only required him to bring them to battle.
Posted - September 11 2008 : 10:04:31 AM, Custer’s Command Decisions, Page 2
quote:
The village is running is the Intel. In this case the village means people not the actual infrastructure of village. The total observations is less than 100 Indians observed. If they had seen the larger stationary village they would not have said there is running Indians ahead and fewer than 100 don't you think?
I would expect the the intel to be that there is 50 Indians ahead running to warn a "Big Village". It not hindsight to look at the information they had at the time.
And what did you see here that you did not like? I don't see the infamous bring them to battle so what is it?
I think my statement from above about covers my thoughts. "What the heck do you think a charge is for? Bring them to lunch? The bolded section is correct. I chose bring them to battle because it is the military objective of the order given to Reno. I use it because others state he did not charge the village. The orders only required him to bring them to battle."
If you can provide military experts to state that only a non soldier would use the word bring them to battle as a desired objective than I will chose a different term for the results of a charge and specifically what Custer expected Reno to do. Until that time, I believe that Reno was ordered the advance which does not mean just going to the front. It is the initial attack to fix the Indians by bringing them to battle.
As far as Girard I have trouble with his testimony when he can't remember who is around and only sees Custer and Reno. Girard was fired by Reno and rehired by Custer. My opinion if Girard heard anything it was Custer telling Cook what to say to Reno. That way everyone hears what they state. I am sure there was a little bit of action going that might have confused Girard's recollection.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2009 : 11:10:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
You may be insane. Reno's responsibility was to follow orders; He did not. Need I repeat the "as fast a gait as you deem prudent" order from Custer. Secondly, it is his responsibility to utilize cover fire to protect his men at the crossing. To deny these two factors is to be immersed in extraordinary denial that is beyond comprehension. Is coming out on top of an argument so important to you that can not see what Benteen and I are saying? My God Man, get a grip!
Let's see on the other board where you pose as a girl the military officer's agree that Reno was obeying his order to charge even after stopping at the skirmish line. Unlike Joe they understand that it would bring them to battle which it did. Most have a difference of opinion about leaving the timber and the method but not the forming of the skirmish line.
So do believe them and my own opinion or Joe and Pohanka (Joe's female alias. Conz and Fred versus Joe and Pohanka.
I would be insane to chose Joe over the Army officers.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2009 : 11:16:56 PM
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Need I repeat the "as fast a gait as you deem prudent" order from Custer.
How stupid can you get.Keep repeating it until you understand it. Who gets to do the deem prudent? Since Reno deemed stopping and forming a skirmish line prudent than he obeyed orders. Do you not understand that officers are to think and if circumstances change they are to exercise judgment. If you paid attention that is what the officers on the other board were stating in theory.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Edited by - AZ Ranger on October 31 2009 11:18:29 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2009 : 11:19:47 PM
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| So Joe how long were you a Marine Corps officer? |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2009 : 11:22:23 PM
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Benteen here is Reno's first order from Cook in his official report.
"I was ordered by Lieut. W. W. Cooke, adjutant, to assume command of Companies M, A, and G; Captain Benteen of Companies H, D, and K. Custer retained C, E, F, I, and L under his immediate command, and Company B, Captain McDougall, in rear of the pack- train."
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2009 : 11:40:40 PM
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I do not find in Reno's official report anything close to your:"
And Reno gave those to you, both at the RCOI and in his Official Report. And that FIRST order that Cooke brought to him was... AGAIN:
1st Cooke order,
1) I there received an order from Lt. Cooke to move my command to the front.
2) I moved forward in accordance with the orders received from Lt. Cooke to the head of the column.
Please show us that in Reno's Official Report. I don't see it and unless you have a different version its not there. It does not state " I there received an order from Lt. Cooke to move my command to the front" nor does it state I moved forward in accordance with the orders received from Lt. Cooke to the head of the column.
Here is where we can all look to see if it is there:
http://www.littlebighorn.info/Articles/renorep.htm
By the way here is the only mention of Wallace in the official report.
"As senior, my command was then A, B, D, G, H, K, and M, about three hundred and eighty men, and the following officers: Captains Benteen, Weir, French and McDougall, First Lieutenants Godfrey, Mathey, and Gibson, and Second Lieutenants Edgerly, Wallace, Varnum, and Hare, and Acting Assistant Surgeon Porter."
Care to point out where Reno states what Wallace heard in that sentence? Since it is the only place where Wallace's name appears in the Official Reno Report where did you get from the official report anything about what Wallace may or may not have heard?
In RCOI the first order from Cooke is just like the Official Report. The second order in RCOI is included in the 1 and 2 above.
You leave out the third order mentioned in the RCOI which is the same as the second order in the Official Report.
When Reno was asked who heard the third order in RCOI or the second in the Official Report he replied Wallace and it is same as what Wallace states he hears.
It is insignificant that Cooke wanted Reno to move up next to the head of the column and probably the reason it was left out of the official report. But you want to leave out the first order from Cooke in both the official report and RCOI which was the division of the regiment. The second order in the official report and the third in RCOI are the same and that is order that Wallace's claims to have heard and Reno put him there in RCOI.
The big move to the front is only to make the two battalions head to head and parallel. Which they were before they crossed the creek which Reno clearly states at RCOI. He was not being pulled out of a formation to move ahead only realigning the position between the two battalions.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Edited by - AZ Ranger on November 01 2009 12:11:48 AM |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 01 2009 : 06:50:02 AM
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Ranger,
Reno’s first generic orders, Benteen’s 2nd generic orders, Custers’s 21st generic order, and Harrington’s 50th generic order... What I am learning from you is that you are right about orders. They are truly generic, and one mans perception of order listing is just a generic interpretation of any true knowledge of when or where that generic order of order placement really is not. So therefore, generic orders, whether generically listed separately from the incident which caused the generic order in the first place, with regards to the generic order last, need not be non generic when considering it generically relevant to the generic discussion.
So therefore the generically natural conclusion should be that if a generic person who is a generic party to the generic orders of the generic first part is generically discussing the generic last orders received, which in reality according to the generic party of the generic first part, those generic last orders were independently generic of any other and thus and therefore generic to any other order, which by all, according to your generically calculated spatial placement, should not be considered generically relevant to the generic discussion and should not then be generically injected into the generic subject, even though the generic events that led up to that generic last order, also being the generic cause of that generic last order, should not be generically weighed as genrical evidence, and as such then the generic assumption should be that in generic reality the generic party of the generic first part, speaking in generic regards to the generic last orders, then the generic order of the generic orders should then be in generic reference to the generic first orders regardless of generic cause or generic circumstances in which the generic last order was generically issued: Even though generically speaking of course, the general whom did generically issue such a generically ordered order in generic regards to the generic last order in the generic sequence that was generically known, generically should generically prove beyond any generic shadow of generic doubt that the general generic in question, was not generically speaking about the generic first orders of the generic day. But generically instead was generically indeed speaking about the generic first order in generic relation to the generic last order; generically generally speaking of course.
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 01 2009 : 07:35:32 AM
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So since you put that giant generic smoke screen it must mean that you did not find what you stated was in the Reno Official Report.
Custer motions Reno to cross the creek during that time the formation is in disarray. Wallace takes the time to look at his watch. Custer is in formation and moving. Cooke simply asks him to move at a quicker rate to get his battalion to the front back to the same relative position they where when he was across the creek. That was not an order to take a military advance. Once up and parallel he received the order from Cooke to separate from the main body and take the military advance and charge running Indians bringing the Indians to battle. His objective was to overtake the running Indians/village then at some point he observed that there was a "Big Village". He now possessed new information and could adjust his orders as officers are expected to do. The Indians were brought to battle and Reno sent word to Custer stating that. Reno exercised his authority in dismounting and forming the skirmish line and his judgment was correct the Indians did not flee.
Your arguments are weak since Reno states the Wallace was there for the military advance order and Wallace states he was there and Girard can't remember seeing anyone but Custer and Reno. He does not state they were not there just that he can't remember them.
If you believe that Wallace heard the order that Cooke gave to Reno to realign his battalion with Custer it is your opinion only since there is no source that states Wallace was there and Wallace does not state he heard it.
As I see it a military advance to contact is to engage the enemy and fix them so the main body can attack. In this case it is running Indians which must be changed from running to fighting so bringing them to battle is appropriate when you have to change their actions.
What happened is that in reality the Big Village was ready to engage and did not need to be brought to battle. They were ready, willing, and capable. So the orders to charge the running Indians only required Reno to stop them from running and bring them to battle. The fleeing Indians/village made it to Big Village which was not fleeing. So the concern for the fleeing evaporates and Reno only has to form the skirmish line to bring them to battle. He could have continued on and charged the village and got wiped out but stopping to form the skirmish is an appropriate action and one that Reno chose.
Bringing them to justice
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 01 2009 : 08:35:10 AM
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Ranger,
It wasn't me who blew the first smoke. It was you with your generic dodging and then weaseling of the fact that you were indeed using Custer's orders to Reno that had been observed and heard by Girard. As you said, "When you divert from the topic it is buyer beware" Which in my case was relevant as it did pertain to Reno and his temperment.
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 01 2009 : 09:36:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
Ranger,
It wasn't me who blew the first smoke. It was you with your generic dodging and then weaseling of the fact that you were indeed using Custer's orders to Reno that had been observed and heard by Girard. As you said, "When you divert from the topic it is buyer beware" Which in my case was relevant as it did pertain to Reno and his temperment.
So have you found what you claim in Reno's Official Report?
I am sure that at some point in time I have read Girard's testimony and he did use that term in his testimony. So what. I believe that bring them to battle occurs lots of times in many battles that Girard was never present. Try searching it and see what happens. The first I found referred to Vikings.
You needed to show that I posted that I believed Girard heard Custer give it to Reno rather than give it to Cooke which is what I believe could have happened. I do not believe that Cooke told Reno to bring them to battle since giving him the advance move to contact it would be understood and to charge them would be brief and to the point.
The point you're trying to make I believe is wasted since a charge and bring them to battle is the same result. How do you distinguish that there is a difference? Is it that you want some great conspiracy that occurred from moving to the front and the orders changed from bring them to battle to charge? If the results are the same to what benefit would it be? In fact if charge is substituted for the Girard bring them to battle then to what purpose could that benefit Reno?
I believe bring them to battle to be a very accurate description of what I believe the intent of Custer's orders were as given by Cooke to Reno.
Since it is your position to believe the Senior Officer in his Official show us in the report where he confirms what Girard states.
The Senior Officer states he received the order from Cooke and look at the date of the Official Report compared to Girard's testimony date years later.
It is quite easy to believe for me that Girard heard Custer talking to Cooke and then Cooke passed on the information. Lets start with the division of the Regiment. Cooke gave Reno the order, Cooke gave Reno the order to move Reno's battalion ahead, and Cookes last order came from Custer to Benteen. In all these orders it is Cooke speaking for Custer why would it change for one of the many orders of Custer to whomever through Cooke?
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Edited by - AZ Ranger on November 01 2009 09:48:52 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 01 2009 : 10:24:57 AM
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So to illustrate my point lets look at what you used to provide evidence of a Custer order? That is a joke if you think there is a reference to an actual wording in an order in most of these.
quote:
I believe Custer thought the Indians would run and had no expectation that Reno could hold them. He had only to bring them to battle or drive them.
Is drive them in the order?
quote:
Reno was sent with a small enough force to bring them to battle. If panic was the goal then bring the whole regiment together.
I don't see any reference to an order do you?
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Since Reno hit the village side of the river and engaged bringing the Indians to battle
This a description what happened and nothing to do with an order.
quote:
Reno was told to stop the running Indians and bring them to battle.
Again this describes the objective and not the actual wording of an order. I don't see stop the running Indians in any configuration of the order so it should obvious it is not a quote of an order.
quote:
I think Reno made the right decision to form the skirmish line. He did not have fleeing Indians to contend with once the village was observed. He was faced with overwhelming odds He could deploy the carbine rather than the revolver Defensive positions can withstand larger numbers of opposing forces then offensive attacks
His orders were to bring them to battle not scatter a village
A retreat is appropriate if the alternative is annihilation
I would suggest that Reno's whole battalion could have been annihilated by riding into the village in a shorter amount of time than the half hour he gave Custer to deliver the promised support.
Reno was told to stop the running Indians and bring them to battle. When writing after the fact word selection becomes problematic. If Custer truly knew there was a village that could be struck then he made a serious error in splitting up his forces. Why not take the whole regiment on the same path that Reno traveled. There would be no way for the village to pack up and leave before he got there and it was the best terrain for cavalry to operate. Recon from 15 miles leaves a lot to be desired in the 1870's. Custer found that out.
You have to be kidding on this. This is the point that Joe and I argue. I believe it was proper to stop and form the skirmish line. The bring them to battle is opposed to scattering the Indians. There is no scattering of the Indians in any order because it is understood that it is not a objective.
None of these posts were discussing what the actual orders that Reno received and from whom. The use the term bring them to battle is presented as opposed to scattering and driving the Indians.
I freely admit that I use that term and like it. I think the term charge is to narrow on what was expected of Reno. Charges are short duration and bring them to battle is longer in my opinion. I do not believe Custer ever expected Reno to charge through the "Big Village".
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 01 2009 : 11:05:45 AM
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| az, answer me just one question, what do you think Custer meant for Reno to do with/against or for the village? |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 01 2009 : 5:47:34 PM
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Joe I believe that Reno was sent after a village that had been abandoned on Reno Creek. Those are the Indians that the scouts saw.
Custer had no knowledge of the big village that he saw for the first time after he sent Reno after the running Indians/village that fled Reno Creek crossed the LBH and moved to the big village.
Reno chased the smaller party until he ran into the big village. It was to large to charge through the big village but when the Indians came to meet Reno's skirmish line it was missioned accomplished. The Indians were not fleeing and Reno needed support in a hurry.
So now your question. Do you believe that Custer knew of the "Big Village and 2,500 to 4,000 warriors and sent Reno to charge into them?
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 01 2009 : 6:46:19 PM
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I believe Hare states he informs Custer of Indians running ahead down Reno Creek miles before crossing the LBH river in his testimony. Apparently Hare hears Custer give Cooke orders that lead to Reno moving rapidly down Reno Creek to the river. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 01 2009 : 7:34:26 PM
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quote:
In Bob Doran's book Horsemanship at... he states his belief that Reno's original orders from Custer to "charge the village" only pertained to the running village that was on Reno Creek that they were chasing. Upon reaching Ford A, Reno stopped...it was his "limit of advance," and those original orders did not contemplate him crossing the river at that time.
quote:
If you look at Girard's account in The Custer Myth he seems to be describing seeing the LT band from the Crow's Nest. He refers to seeing a smaller village moving away on the way to the large village. It can only be the LT band.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 02 2009 : 04:20:53 AM
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Ranger,
Thank you for posting the needed answer to your own question.
Yesterday : 6:46:19 PM
2nd question, & 2nd answer to that question, last sentence.
quote:
The Indians refused to go and he ordered them dismounted; and turned around to Adj. Cook and told him as the Indians would not go ahead. To order Major Reno with his battalion ahead.
Hare just confirmed Major Reno's official Report & his statements to the court of that incident, which was the direct cause of Major Reno's order. And that order was...
1st Cooke order according to Reno‘s own statements to the Court,
1) I there received an order from Lt. Cooke to move my command to the front. (RCOI last sentence pg 560, first sentence pg 561)
2) I moved forward in accordance with the orders received from Lt. Cooke to the head of the column. (First sentence 2nd paragraph pg 561
Now then the placement of this in regards to Reno’s Official Report, pg 641, 2nd paragraph.
“As we approached a deserted village (reference DeRudio - 5 miles from LBH), and in which was standing one tepee ( tipi was mentioned on pg 560), about 11am. (watch the timing here), Custer motioned me to cross to him, which I did, and moved nearer to his column, (insert last sentence pg 560, first sentence 561), until about 12:30am (should have been 11:30, reference timing DeRudio‘s half hour and Hare‘s 25 minutes) [Insert Reno’s observation of the Indians still not wanting to go (pg 561 2nd and 3rd sentences) and Girard’s statement concerning Custer’s orders to him (pg 86, 2nd answer), and a short time later] when Lt. Cooke, adjutant came to me and said: (Insert Davern’s rendition of Reno’s orders pg 360), ‘Girard comes and reports the Indian Village three miles ahead and moving. The General directs you to take your three companies and drive everything before you. Colonel Benteen will be on your left and will have the same instructions.’”
Restored truthful rendition according to Reno’s own Official statements to the Court and his Report, along with those that did know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth:
“As we approached a deserted village (about 5 miles from the LBH), and in which was standing one tepee, about 11 am, Custer motioned me to cross to him (with his hat), which I did, and moved nearer to his column, (the crossing was a little difficult so that when I got on that side the battalion was somewhat scattered, and I was about opposite the rear of the column commanded by Gen. Custer. I there received an order from Lt. Cooke to move my command to the front.) [And did so] in accordance with the orders received from Lt. Cooke, until about 11:30 when I got up there - there was a turmoil among the Indians that were with us as scouts. They were stripping themselves and preparing for a fight. I afterwards understood that they would not go forward and Gen. Custer had ordered them to give up their guns and horses. (And there Custer told me) You will take your battalion and try to overtake the Indians and bring them to battle and we will support you, (And as I began to ride away further added) And take the scouts along with you. (A short time later) Lt. Cooke adjutant came to me and said, “Girard comes back and reports the Indian village three miles ahead and moving. The General directs you to take your three companies and drive everything before you, Colonel Benteen will be on your left and will have the same instructions.”
What was the modification from the orders Custer directly gave him and those he sent moments later through Cooke after “Girard came back” and reported the BIG village on the move about 3 miles away?
Not only did Custer know of the BIG village at that time, it was because of Girard’s sighting of that BIG village that caused Custer to change Reno’s orders from pursuing a small band of 40 to 50 (your Small Village) to actually hitting the BIG village, which he thought was doing what according to Girard's sighting and Report?
Now ask yourself; why would both Reno and Wallace lie about this for certain sequence of events?
And one last comment. Time and time again, the timing keeps placing Benteen there at that tepee, about 1 mile from ford “A”, here again Davern’s last sentence indicates the same thing…”Colonel Benteen will be on your left and will have the same instructions.” It not only sounds correct, in fact it was correct. Reno was sent first and Benteen was sent from that same place after Reno. Where was Benteen supposed to have gone? “Colonel Benteen will be [future tense, in other words Custer had not given him his orders yet.] on your left and will have the same instructions.” He didn’t see the valley because he was already in it. This was what the Court didn't know (or did they?), and didn't know how (or try) to get out of him. How could he possibly have been searching for it, when in fact, he was already there.
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Edited by - Benteen on November 02 2009 04:47:37 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 02 2009 : 08:04:52 AM
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Without reading the rest of your post notice that there is no stop for any further orders. So which point do you think it supports. Hare states Cooke gave Custer's orders to Reno.
Cooke orders Reno to move to the front which is not ahead and certainly not a separation. The next command to move ahead is what Hare heard and confirms that Custer told Cooke to give the order to Reno. Notice this the advance, movement to contact, separation order.
It is clear that it was not the order to catch up to Custer. Reno moves off at a fast trot to the river.
AZ Ranger
I appreciate your effort in putting together your opinion of what happened but I do not agree with your use of the written reports, accounts, and testimony. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on November 02 2009 08:34:59 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 02 2009 : 08:07:10 AM
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You still keep referring to the Official Report as if there is something there. By the time you get done with your above rendition it is nothing but your opinion.
Remember I am still waiting for this
I do not find in Reno's official report anything close to your:"
And Reno gave those to you, both at the RCOI and in his Official Report. And that FIRST order that Cooke brought to him was... AGAIN:
1st Cooke order,
1) I there received an order from Lt. Cooke to move my command to the front.
2) I moved forward in accordance with the orders received from Lt. Cooke to the head of the column.
Please show us that in Reno's Official Report. I don't see it and unless you have a different version its not there. It does not state " I there received an order from Lt. Cooke to move my command to the front" nor does it state I moved forward in accordance with the orders received from Lt. Cooke to the head of the column.
Here is where we can all look to see if it is there:
http://www.littlebighorn.info/Articles/renorep.htm
By the way here is the only mention of Wallace in the official report.
"As senior, my command was then A, B, D, G, H, K, and M, about three hundred and eighty men, and the following officers: Captains Benteen, Weir, French and McDougall, First Lieutenants Godfrey, Mathey, and Gibson, and Second Lieutenants Edgerly, Wallace, Varnum, and Hare, and Acting Assistant Surgeon Porter."
Care to point out where Reno states what Wallace heard in that sentence? Since it is the only place where Wallace's name appears in the Official Reno Report where did you get from the official report anything about what Wallace may or may not have heard?
Benteen feel free to have you theory as expressed above and that is what we are here for to express them. I just do accept it. When asked to provide evidence from Reno report I want only the actual words. I will draw my on conclusion and form my own opinion. You believe your opinions are fact and I do not.
If you can't answer the first questions asked above them why should anyone believe your inserts above.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on November 02 2009 08:35:51 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 02 2009 : 08:44:55 AM
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The Reno Official Report is what it is. Reno states that he did not write it all from personal memory but used works of others to put it together. Since we don't know what was recollection or taken from others errors if the exist were created by whom?
I can imagine that giving one of my reports to a defendant and allowing him to rewrite it what that report would look like. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 02 2009 : 09:02:41 AM
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So your sure that the Big Village can be seen from Girard's Knoll including running Indians on the other side of it?
Since the features are all here today it is easy to check.
Are you stating there are no Indians to the front on Reno Creek that Hare reports?
There is a big difference from running to get your pony and war gear and running away don't you think?
What indications are there that the Big Village was moving as when Girard saw the one he described?
Nice try on the orders but it doesn't work for me. What you did is add all the various short recollections together and made a much larger order. None of the testimony or accounts supports that all the information you present was given from Custer to Reno or Benteen.
So if we could ask any the persons if the they heard your rendition they would all state NO. You don't really think they all decided to remember different sentences in the same order?
As far as Benteen we can eliminate the on the left theory with Martin's note. There would be no need if Benteen had orders to attack the Big Village. It is clear that Martin expected to find Benteen to the rear of Reno on Reno Creek since he went there and met Benteen there. If Custer knew of the Big Village from Girard account he would have sent the Big Village message at that point to Benteen. Either you think Custer makes a huge tactical error or he does not see the Big Village until the Martin note.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on November 02 2009 09:10:40 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 02 2009 : 09:29:50 AM
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after “Girard came back” and reported the BIG village on the move about 3 miles away?
What is the reference for the above |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 02 2009 : 12:14:20 PM
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Ranger,
Last post first, and so on until I get to your first post.
quote:
after “Girard came back” and reported the BIG village on the move about 3 miles away?
quote:
What is the reference for the above?
Pg. 84, RCOI, 6th answer,
A few minutes before Major Reno received his orders (the one Cooke gave to Reno) I rode up a little knoll near where there was a lodge with some dead Indians in it, and from this knoll I could see the town (note not a small village), the Indian tepees (still standing, Plural, more than one) and ponies. I turned my horse sideways and took off my hat and waved it and then I hallooed to Gen. Custer, “here are your Indians, running like devils.” And I rode down from that knoll and joined Gen. Custer and he was still marching on.
Explanation,
He stated that he heard Custer give the order to Reno, so he had to have been within earshot to have done so. Yet even Girard gets the sequencing wrong.
Several reported incidents and sequencing,
Pg 112, here he adds to his “running like devils” statement, saying; “I rode down and I think Gen. Custer and others went up there to see them." And he wasn’t sure of anything at this point because of the sequence, which is the point you brought up before.
Varnum’s statements also betray that he knew more than he was telling. It was said of him, “As he started off, Varnum shouted out to Wallace, "Come on Nick, with the fighting men. I don't stay back with the Coffee coolers." Custer than gave Wallace permission to go.” So at this time Varnum did know of those order Custer gave to Reno. Yet, pg 139 he stated concerning that order, “I did not hear any, I was not present.” Custer himself told him “where they were going”, this he did not mention at the court.
Varnum also had observed this Big village and made this statement, pg 140, “There were more Indians than I ever saw before. I had seen immense numbers of Indians from the top of the bluffs while out scouting and knew there was a large village there.” Custer received this information when? That’s correct, just after Reno had departed Custer; right after Custer gave Reno those direct orders. It was during this time that Girard then made his famous “running like devils” observation, for he had left the column to go to the knoll after Reno departed, which was a mere 50 yards from the tepee where those orders were given to Reno. Girard remembers where those orders had been given on pg 85, Question 1, answer 1: I suppose it was twenty-five or thirty yards away from that lodge…It might have been more (where Reno received those orders). I know it was but a very short time after I left the lodge that he received these orders.”
So which statement was correct? “after he left the lodge” or after he left the knoll? Sequence is everything here, and understanding that sequence correctly for many after a 3 year lapse could indeed become confusing. And if you don’t think Varnum told Custer of these facts, “I had seen immense numbers of Indians from the top of the bluffs while out scouting and knew there was a large village there.” Then he would have been derelict in his scouting duties. The court never asked this, but tell Custer, he did. If Custer had any doubts as to what both Varnum and Girard reported to him he allayed and fears of that by “going to the knoll” himself to have a look see. It was in this period of time that he sent Cooke, again, to give him the orders Davern witnessed him giving to Reno a short time later.
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 02 2009 : 12:19:19 PM
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quote:
So your sure that the Big Village can be seen from Girard's Knoll including running Indians on the other side of it?
Since the features are all here today it is easy to check.
Are you stating there are no Indians to the front on Reno Creek that Hare reports?
This tepee, knoll and location is well documented in the RCOI as being about 1 mile from where Reno forded the river. There is no doubt that any knoll within that distance one could have observed the village from there. The other knoll that lay some 5 miles back up the river near the other tepee, has been wrongly classified, that was the knoll that Hare used to witness the fleeing 40 to 50 (small villagers) you are so fond of.
quote:
There is a big difference from running to get your pony and war gear and running away don't you think?
What indications are there that the Big Village was moving as when Girard saw the one he described?
Possibly the “dust” that was being kicked up by an excited Indian village. This immense Dust cloud was recorded as being visible before they had arrived at the tepee nearest the river (1 mile), where Girard heard Custer giving Reno orders. I believe it was also Girard who made mention of this dust cloud, as being about 3 miles from the river at the time he first noticed it. It was also mentioned by Custer, for prior to Girards observation, Custer had observed this dust and had asked one of his Indian scouts what that was.
quote:
Nice try on the orders but it doesn't work for me. What you did is add all the various short recollections together and made a much larger order. None of the testimony or accounts supports that all the information you present was given from Custer to Reno or Benteen.
So if we could ask any the persons if the they heard your rendition they would all state NO. You don't really think they all decided to remember different sentences in the same order?
You are so fond of not blaming anyone for having lied. Yet they either did, or they got the sequence wrong, or they omitted information that filled in those blanks. Here I have filled in a few of those “blanks”.
quote:
As far as Benteen we can eliminate the on the left theory with Martin's note. There would be no need if Benteen had orders to attack the Big Village. It is clear that Martin expected to find Benteen to the rear of Reno on Reno Creek since he went there and met Benteen there. If Custer knew of the Big Village from Girard account he would have sent the Big Village message at that point to Benteen. Either you think Custer makes a huge tactical error or he does not see the Big Village until the Martin note.
Again, the wrong way of looking at it. Read Edgerly’s testimony again, concerning miles and direction. Benteen was supposed to have swung around the left flank of Reno’s advance and hit the village from the west.
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Edited by - Benteen on November 02 2009 12:21:54 PM |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 02 2009 : 12:22:24 PM
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quote:
The Reno Official Report is what it is. Reno states that he did not write it all from personal memory but used works of others to put it together. Since we don't know what was recollection or taken from others errors if the exist were created by whom?
I can imagine that giving one of my reports to a defendant and allowing him to rewrite it what that report would look like.
Agreed, and was Wallace one of those that helped him? |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 02 2009 : 12:26:04 PM
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quote:
Care to point out where Reno states what Wallace heard in that sentence? Since it is the only place where Wallace's name appears in the Official Reno Report where did you get from the official report anything about what Wallace may or may not have heard?
From Wallace himself. Wallace was present when Custer gave those orders personally to Reno. Wallace had to have heard them because Wallace was still with Custer after Reno had already departed. It was only after Varnum’s arrival that Wallace was permitted to leave and go with Reno. Shortly after Wallace’s arrival at Reno’s side, Cooke, again rides up to Reno and delivers the orders Davern heard. Cooke had been sent within minutes of releasing Wallace and Varnum to go with Reno. This when taken together with Reno’s Official Report tells a lot more than any of them wanted us to know. As I said, if they were not asked they did not tell. And when they did, they obfuscated the truth. Wallace also stated that he did hear and see Custer waving Reno over to his side of the stream. Now then, where was Wallace? If he was with Reno as your observations suggest, then he also had to have known this:
1st Cooke order,
1) I there received an order from Lt. Cooke to move my command to the front.
2) I moved forward in accordance with the orders received from Lt. Cooke to the head of the column.
YET, he not only stated this but ADDED words to Cooke’s first order making everyone believe that, then and there, that Custer ordered Reno through Cooke to attack the village from there (about 4 miles up the river before he ever arrived at Custer‘s position near the tepee nearest the river (1 mile). This simply is not true. And he did this because? Quite simply to circumvent any notion that Custer gave Reno any direct orders. We know that Cooke gave two separate orders to Reno through Reno’s official report. One before Reno’s arrival at the tepee nearest the river (1mile) and one after leaving that tepee. But before he left that tepee, Custer gave Reno the orders Girard heard.
quote:
I appreciate your effort in putting together your opinion of what happened but I do not agree with your use of the written reports, accounts, and testimony.
Thanks, one has to put these things together in an intelligent manner in order to make any sense out of each one’s statements. The embedded information in each one’s testimony should be used the way I have done. The when and where according to proper sequence is what matters most. If it isn’t attempted, then no one will ever find out the truth.
Am I correct? I don’t know. I am not so inclined to believe that mine is any better or any worse than John Gray’s was. But I do not work off of any one theory or theories at all, I let the evidence lead me to the truth, not some notion of what others thought happened, but what the participants themselves told us happened. When someone premises a theory and then tries to find evidence for it, there is ample lies and mistatements to be found that will support it. Theory doen't prove it, their statements prove it.
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Edited by - Benteen on November 02 2009 12:26:50 PM |
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Why Did Wallace Lie?
