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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
 Posted - November 15 2009 : 01:25:07 AM
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Joe, your orgional intent to this, as it was addressed to Mike, was I believe truely the best observation of this that i've seen.
Benteen betrayed his intentions usually at the end of his sentences. And you’re right Joe, Benteen was not forthcoming at the Reno Inquiry, in a way in which one should understand him.
quote:
On Saturday, Feb 1st., he testified that he had his company position themselves at a right angle on a ridge and, planted a guidon at the highest point "that looked over that country." He did this to "present an object to attract the attention of Gen. Custer's command if it was in sight."
Your much condensed version is helpful, but easily seen as to intent, with or without. Why did Benteen tack on those last 5 words? One simply must think about those last 5 words and the context with which Benteen speaks it. “If it, (Gen. Custer’s command, was in sight.” Does this ring any hollow bells? Why should he even say such a thing? Why even state it? Think about this? Why the need to put those five words there?
Then to the next question, this:
The Recorder than asked, "Then in your opinion his command (Custer) was still alive?"
Benteen responded, "I thought so."
Ummm….. Hello, hey stupid, his command was either dead or it was either alive. You yourself will state on the very next question, this: “We than had found - I wish to say, before the order reached me, that I believe General Custer and his whole command was dead." And you’re saying here the very question before, that in your “opinion” that you “thought Custer’s command still alive”? The man isn't sane here.
Though the question was cleverly asked, in Benteen’s “opinion”, rather than “fact”, which would have required a known. Benteen still responded to the “opinion” not in the most positive of affirmative’s with a “yes”, but with an “I thought so”.
The only way this works for Benteen is to apply the errant 5 words to each and every following reply.
The Recorder than asked, "Then in your opinion his command (Custer) was still alive?"
Benteen responded, "I thought so." “if it was in sight."
The Recorder then asked Benteen if he received any notification from General Custer at the hands of Trumpeter Martin.
Benteen replied, "I received an order to Come on - be quick - big village - bring packs, bring packs. We than had found - I wish to say, before the order reached me, that I believe General Custer and his whole command was dead." -“if it was in sight."
And now you know the rest of Benteen's story Joe, "if it was in sight"
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Edited by - Benteen on November 15 2009 01:28:07 AM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 15 2009 : 4:09:24 PM
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Great job Benteen, placed in sequential order(by you) makes the concept clearer for the reader. It also confirms that this was not a situation where Benteen maked a statement three years ago and then became nonplussed during the inquiry and, subsequently, erred in his reply as az contends.
Both statements were made in a specific time frame (24 hours) by an intelligent, confident, and self assured individual who was very flamboyant in his testimony and demeanor. When he acknowledged the order, he acknowledges that he ignored it which could have led to a Court martial unless there was a substantial reason to believe that Custer was dead at the time the order was received. Thus, his sworn testimony, "that I believed General Custer and his whole command was dead."
Ironically, the lack of Recorder Lee's inquiry into what was, obviously, a glaring contradiction has been misunderstood by some
as a exoneration of Benteen's testimony. It was not! Lee was forbidden to delve into the actions of every participant of this battle other then Reno. That the panel did not pick up on this speaks for itself. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 16 2009 : 07:37:27 AM
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There is no contradiction in my opinion. In real time Benteen thought Custer was alive as most believed even into the evening. After evaluating the battlefield he formed an opinion that Custer was dead. That opinion is expressed in his testimony. It clear he is inserting opinion since it not a response to a question.
There is nothing that would have lead Benteen to believe in real time that Custer was dead. His actions after receiving the note were to move out at higher rate of speed.
If you think that Benteen is testifying that he believed in real time Custer was dead after Kanipe and before Martin , I believe you have erred in the reading of the testimony.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 17 2009 : 4:59:35 PM
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| Real time is the 24 hours in which this testimony took place. Testimony that unarguably contradicted itself. If he believed that Custer was alive at 5 O'Clock when he posted his men and the guidon, how could he testify (the next morning) they were dead at three O'Clock when he received the order, on the very same day!!! |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 17 2009 : 7:39:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
Real time is the 24 hours in which this testimony took place. Testimony that unarguably contradicted itself. If he believed that Custer was alive at 5 O'Clock when he posted his men and the guidon, how could he testify (the next morning) they were dead at three O'Clock when he received the order, on the very same day!!!
That's because he doesn't do what you say. He testifies that on the day they moved to Weir that he believed Custer was alive. Why else would the go that direction. The he testifies it his opinion after the fact years later that was all ready dead.
The testimony does not contradict itself. Do you really think that you can't believe something happened and later change your mind after looking over evidence.
In this case Benteen moves to Weir and can not determine whether Custer is alive or not. They put up a guidon to mark their locations.
Benteen later looks over the battlefield forming the opinion that the end was quick without formations.
There is no evidence that Benteen would have believed Custer was dead until the body was discovered. There is sufficient evidence to support Benteen theory of the battle and his belief that Custer may have been dead before they arrive on Weir.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 18 2009 : 9:14:51 PM
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| God Bless you son. I give up. you win. I could quote a whole passel of authors who confirm Benteen's "testimony" but, why should I. you still wouldn't believe it. az, I don't make stuff up. I'm not that intelligent. I read. Try reading vanishing Victory by Liddic. That's just one example. i will print other resources in the future. Perhaps there may be some hope yet that will assist you in taking off your rose glasses when you read. |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 18 2009 : 9:37:23 PM
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That's because he doesn't do what you say.
No, I suppose, he's going to do what you say, isn't he?
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He testifies that on the day they moved to Weir that he believed Custer was alive. Why else would the go that direction.
Because he was already there? And just who said it was "Weir" that they went to?
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Then he testifies it his opinion after the fact years later that was all ready dead.
Really, try reading that again. Joe is correct in what he said. Benteen was caught between a rock and a hard place with no where to go except conflicting evidence, and THEY NEVER CALLED HIM ON IT. (damn, now he's got me doing it)
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The testimony does not contradict itself.
Whether you like it or not, yes it does.
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Do you really think that you can't believe something happened and later change your mind after looking over evidence.
It was a pretty quick change wouldn't you say? You try that in a court today, and see if you get away with it.
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In this case Benteen moves to Weir and can not determine whether Custer is alive or not. They put up a guidon to mark their locations. Benteen later looks over the battlefield forming the opinion that the end was quick without formations.
There you go again, assuming "locations". Who said it was "Weir"?
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There is no evidence that Benteen would have believed Custer was dead until the body was discovered.
What do you think Weir and Edgerly discovered, dead buffalo?
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There is sufficient evidence to support Benteen theory of the battle
Would you mind explaining this one in detail.
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Edited by - Benteen on November 18 2009 9:38:40 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 19 2009 : 09:25:22 AM
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Does it say believe or believed? Is Benteen answering the question asked or inserting his current opinion?
If you don't agree it states believe or that he is inserting opinion rather than answering the question than please explain how you derive that?
Thanks
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 19 2009 : 09:33:58 AM
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There is sufficient evidence to support Benteen theory of the battle
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Would you mind explaining this one in detail.
Benteen looked over the battlefield. He did so and based upon actual observations formed an opinion as to what occurred. Benteen as a military officer would qualify as an expert witness who formed a theory based upon his observations and opinion.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on November 19 2009 09:34:59 AM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 19 2009 : 9:45:08 PM
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| Benteen, thank you for your posts. Were it not for you 1 think I would think that I've lost it. Az, God bless you man. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on November 19 2009 9:45:42 PM |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 20 2009 : 12:49:42 AM
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I always found it interesting that Benteen stopped mid-sentence, and almost tells the truth, once again:
"I received and order to come on - be quick, big village - bring packs, Bring packs. He then had found what he had sent me to find..."
This rendition based upon his other testimony that stated the same.
Your welcome Joe,
Benteen |
Edited by - Benteen on November 20 2009 12:50:16 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 20 2009 : 07:58:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
I always found it interesting that Benteen stopped mid-sentence, and almost tells the truth, once again:
"I received and order to come on - be quick, big village - bring packs, Bring packs. He then had found what he had sent me to find..."
This rendition based upon his other testimony that stated the same.
In recorded testimony the words are what they are. Nice try to put your own rendition to the answer of that particular question but that is not the facts of the testimony it is fanasty. He stated his opinion there I believe because he was only a witness and not a defendant and wanted the court to hear his opinion. Benteen was not allowed to present his own case since Reno was the focus of the Reno court of inquiry. Apparently Benteen knew he could interject his opinion even when non responsive to a question. He was right and the court did not strike it from his testimony. You guys just have live with him stating his opinion on that day. Clearly it will always read beleive.
Benteen
Again
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Does it say believe or believed? Is Benteen answering the question asked or inserting his current opinion?
If you don't agree it states believe or that he is inserting opinion rather than answering the question than please explain how you derive that?
Thanks
AZ Ranger
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 20 2009 : 08:11:37 AM
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Benteen
The change in beliefs that we have been discussing has nothing to with the order or your rendition of a statement but if you could quote that from RCOI I would look at that. We are discussing what Benteen believed when he put up the guidon and believed Custer was alive. I don't see your rendition in this testimony. It may be relevant, I don't know, but for sure Benteen testifies that long after receiving Martin's note that he believed Custer was alive.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 20 2009 : 2:16:45 PM
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It may be relevant, I don't know
As with most of your prattle, it is as we all know YOUR opinion, which you have a right to. But that's all it is, an opinion.
When one looks at the testimony and see's what he said one day, and what he stated the next, it is obvious that his testimony was conflicting. That stated is a fact, not an opinion. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 20 2009 : 6:53:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
quote:
It may be relevant, I don't know
As with most of your prattle, it is as we all know YOUR opinion, which you have a right to. But that's all it is, an opinion.
When one looks at the testimony and see's what he said one day, and what he stated the next, it is obvious that his testimony was conflicting. That stated is a fact, not an opinion.
Again
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Does it say believe or believed? Is Benteen answering the question asked or inserting his current opinion?
If you don't agree it states believe or that he is inserting opinion rather than answering the question than please explain how you derive that?
What's the matter you can't answer the question? Everyone reading the quotes should be able to see believe and believed. One present tense the other past tense. How hard is it?
I see you failed to post from RCOI your rendition. Is that because Benteen stated on the 19th day that "I believe" Custer was dead. The same day and four answers later is the words you used for your opinionated rendition:
Q . From the order sent to you at that time to be quick and bring the packs, was it not manifest that he expected you would be within communicating distance of the pack train?
A. I suppose he had found what he sent me out to find as you premise, and wanted me quickly as possible , and I got there as quickly as I could. I could not possibly tell what he may have thought. If it is a guess, I can guess, but how close I will be I don't know.
So your rendition is based on what?
"He then had found [something]"is the same as "I suppose he had found" therefore it must?
And then you state "That stated is a fact, not an opinion."
I think not.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on November 20 2009 7:50:54 PM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 21 2009 : 9:31:08 PM
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Az, you profess to be police Officer of 61 years of age who single handily capture a "Gang Banger." Hell, I even gave you a round of applause that I, at my age, could never accomplish such a feat. Since then I have had second thoughts, may I share them with you? You don't think like an officer. Particularly one who, allegedly, has over thirty years of service.
During such an extended amount of time you must have experienced a great, many episodes of criminal activity, made arrest, and testified in Court.
As an officer, you must realize that your opinion is not requested in an investigation. The facts, just the facts are required.
For example, you are interviewing a suspect regarding a murder, he has waived Miranda, signed off, and is talking to you. He says, "Detective, I swear when I walked into the parlor, she was laying on the couch alive. It was exactly five O'clock because she asked me what time it was when I asked if she was O.K.!
You finish taping the statement. The next day, however, you send your partner in to initiate further questioning of the suspect because the coroner advises you that the time of death for the victim was actually three o"clock.
Returning to the suspect your partner shoves the new information into his face and, he now states, "Oh yea,it was really actually 2:30 when I saw her. I remember because my watch said five O'clock but, I realize that it was running fast."
In summation, a real cop would say,"were you lying yesterday and telling the truth today, or were you telling the truth yesterday and lying today.
Instead, you interject every theoretical possibility possible to absolve Benteen of his false testimony. Who knows, if you persevere you might really start believing it yourself. However, we don't. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2009 : 4:46:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
Az, you profess to be police Officer of 61 years of age who single handily capture a "Gang Banger." Hell, I even gave you a round of applause that I, at my age, could never accomplish such a feat. Since then I have had second thoughts, may I share them with you? You don't think like an officer. Particularly one who, allegedly, has over thirty years of service.
During such an extended amount of time you must have experienced a great, many episodes of criminal activity, made arrest, and testified in Court.
As an officer, you must realize that your opinion is not requested in an investigation. The facts, just the facts are required.
For example, you are interviewing a suspect regarding a murder, he has waived Miranda, signed off, and is talking to you. He says, "Detective, I swear when I walked into the parlor, she was laying on the couch alive. It was exactly five O'clock because she asked me what time it was when I asked if she was O.K.!
You finish taping the statement. The next day, however, you send your partner in to initiate further questioning of the suspect because the coroner advises you that the time of death for the victim was actually three o"clock.
Returning to the suspect your partner shoves the new information into his face and, he now states, "Oh yea,it was really actually 2:30 when I saw her. I remember because my watch said five O'clock but, I realize that it was running fast."
In summation, a real cop would say,"were you lying yesterday and telling the truth today, or were you telling the truth yesterday and lying today.
Instead, you interject every theoretical possibility possible to absolve Benteen of his false testimony. Who knows, if you persevere you might really start believing it yourself. However, we don't.
Who is we Joe, morning star, realbird, pohanka and reddirt?
You example has zero to do with reading the questions and answers in RCOI. First this is written sworn testimony not interview and interrogation statements taken by Joe and Morning Star. You don't know the difference do you? Police officers don't ask the questions in Arizona courts or courts of inquiry.
As an officer, you must realize that your opinion is not requested in an investigation. The facts, just the facts are required.
Joe you are your own worst enemy when it comes to your veracity and what a police officer does or not. Part of my job involves stolen watercraft and accident investigations. So are you saying officer's trained in investigative techniques can not testify as an expert witness? Can expert witnesses testify to opinion?
Exactly what do think accident reconstruction testimony in court is if not opinion? So you have never heard an officer testify to opinion? Let's try a simple example can a trained officer testify to his opinion on a rear brake light being on when it was struct in the rear breaking the bulb? Was that opinion formed in the investigation?
When an officer testifies to slurred speach is that opinion? The subject appeared nervous fact or opinion?
You apparently don't recognize the range of testimony allowed at a court of inquiry as being much different than civilian courts.
There is nothing hypothetical about the words believe and believed appearing in print in the RCOI.
You spent a lot of time in court have you? You think that in your courts that when asked a questions such as:
Did you not receive such notification from General Custer at the hands of Trumpeter Martin?
and part of the answer is " I wish to say, that before that order reached me I believe that General Custer and his whole command were dead.
That there would be no objection.
Do know what a nonresponsive objection is?
So Joe ask morning star if that appears to be nonresponsive yet allowed at the RCOI.
I know lets see how morning star, realbird, pohanka and reddirt vote on this issue.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2009 : 5:47:43 PM
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I get it. Rather than answer the question which you, obviously, cannot you once again bring the same old, tired, dispersions that no one bothers with anymore except you and your daddy.
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 23 2009 : 07:42:50 AM
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OK Here is the question you asked:
quote:
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Since then I have had second thoughts, may I share them with you?
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No is my answer.
I hope you are not as stupid as these posts make you out to be. Did you read the only question in your previous post before you asked me to answer it?
Try this one Joe here is your sentence:
As an officer, you must realize that your opinion is not requested in an investigation.
Since I am a supervisor, officer's ask me all the time for my opinion in their investigations. Did you really mean requested as you wrote or was it an error?
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on November 23 2009 07:43:30 AM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 24 2009 : 9:36:10 PM
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Do you have any idea what your thread makes you appear like, an insolent, juvenile, sniveling little twerp! "I hope you are not as stupid as your posts make you out to be." is not the response of a grown man yet, an alleged supervisor at a police department. Where you hired as a supervisor or did you move up the ranks like most mortals. Are you suggesting that a police supervisor is incapable if doing interrogations/interviews and making a decision.
You really ought to be ashamed of yourself and answer the question if you are able. |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 24 2009 : 9:57:31 PM
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Our word Nazi wasn't exactly being honest. He didn't catch his own error until when?
Posted - Today (ll,22,09) : 8:21:48 PM By AZ Ranger
OK Here is the question you asked:
quote:
Since then I have had second thoughts, may I share them with you?
No is my answer.
I hope you are not as stupid as these posts make you out to be. Did you read the only question in your previous post before you asked me to answer it?
Try this one Joe here is your sentence:
As an officer, you must realize that your opinion is not requested in an investigation.
Since I am a superisior, officer's ask me all the time for my opinion in thier investigations. Did you really mean requested as you wrote or was it an error?
AZ Ranger
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Notice the word "superisior" in that last paragraph? Now notice the time it took for him to correct it. 
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 08:47:24 AM
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Never claimed to be a spelling expert and the spell check is what I use to correct either typo or spelling errors and sometimes I forget to use it. Nothing new but I wasn't the one who said that everyone had a dictionary. That was Joe. So he invited the challenge don't you think?
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Our word Nazi wasn't exactly being honest. He didn't catch his own error until when?
At least when I see an obvious typo I correct it. What's your point. What does honesty have to do with correcting a typo? It fits the pattern of your logic and conclusions.
How does your position on personalization fit with "Our word Nazi"?
Let's be honest you are the disingenuous one.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 08:52:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
Do you have any idea what your thread makes you appear like, an insolent, juvenile, sniveling little twerp! "I hope you are not as stupid as your posts make you out to be." is not the response of a grown man yet, an alleged supervisor at a police department. Where you hired as a supervisor or did you move up the ranks like most mortals. Are you suggesting that a police supervisor is incapable if doing interrogations/interviews and making a decision.
You really ought to be ashamed of yourself and answer the question if you are able.
quote:
Since then I have had second thoughts, may I share them with you?
No is my answer.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 09:20:15 AM
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an alleged supervisor at a police department
Again Joe I beleive you are posting false information. All peace officers don't work at a police department. You think the Sheriff's Office is called a police department? You think the Highway Patrol is called a police department by the officers?
I have no idea what your state did but in Arizona all officers are AZPOST certified officers are Peace Officers and where the work determines their title.
Cities have policemen
Towns have deputy marshals
Counties have deputy sheriffs
Department of Public Safety- Highway Patrol - patrolmen
Cities in Arizona have police departments and certain entities such as the capital and universities.
Generically peace officers use the word police since most people understand it especially foreigners. If that is what you meant by police department than I stand corrected but my office is not called a police department. We do have AZPOST certified officers at our office.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 09:31:02 AM
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Benteen
Besides correcting the spelling error is there any difference in my posts?
I am curious though you posted
"Posted - Today (ll,22,09) : 8:21:48 PM By AZ Ranger"
I can't get a copy of a post to display the date in the format you displayed. (ll,22,09) Is that an actual copy or did you insert the date in post? I also don't get the By AZ Ranger.
When I copy a date it looks like:
Today
Posted - Today : 08:52:51 AM
The day before
Benteen Posted - Yesterday : 9:57:31 PM
Longer than the day before
Posted - November 20 2009 : 2:16:45 PM
Or in a quote
November 20 2009 : 2:16:45 PM
Originally posted by Benteen
So is this an example of what you did?
Posted - Today (ll,22,09) : 8:21:48 PM By Benteen
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on November 25 2009 09:50:46 AM |
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Responsibility for Custer's defeat.
